School's out forever: Arizona moves "to kill public education" with new universal voucher law

Nov 28, 2010
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Dude, lots of people are upset with stuff outside the Three Rs, so to speak, that is being foisted upon their kids.
You mean like good science and honest history? Yeah, I get it that many on the right are, in fact, against teaching good science and honest history. But cons and Rs who don't feel that way should be trying to make public schools better, not undercut them.

By contrast, we public school supporters are worried about the kind of religious and racist propaganda kids may be fed at private and religious schools.

Despite those worries, we are still willing for kids to go to private and public schools. Not thrilled about it but not trying to shut them down. But we don't think funds for public schools - or any public funds - should be diverted to support private or religious schools.
 
Nov 28, 2010
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I can see it now, pop up private schools everywhere to take all the fleeing snowflakes kids, but there will be supplemental payments for your new subpar education and then when the profits are gone, so is the school and the citizens again will have no other alternative than their local public school but by then it will be in a shambles. This BS is straight out of Betsy DeVos playbook, y’all know her, she married into the greatest legal pyramid scheme known to man, Amway. Now she and her cronies have convinced dumdums like Kimmie that this will be to he next greatest thing for education, but it’s just another grift to all of them. Any idiot who can’t see through this ridiculous scam should just kill themselves because their brain is already dead.
We need to wake up to the fact that there is a large, well-funded cabal whose intent is to cripple and dismantle public education.
 

ThorneStockton

HR Legend
Oct 2, 2009
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Yeah, I think parents were unhappy about that, despite the insistence of some that it wasn't happening. Guess enough parents didn't believe 'em.

Public schools need some accountability. Stop being so servile to the system.

Gotta sign off (wife limits my screen time). We'll find something sooner or later to agree about. Have a nice 4th weekend ... dirtbag 😄.

Your wife should be less concerned about screen time and more concerned about screen content.

It's evident you've gotten hooked while going down the rabbit hole. Probably have trouble identifying reality, likely weird people out by going on and on about the most recent flavor of conspiracy theory.

Can you account for your whereabouts 1/6/2021?

Don't worry, I'll talk to the wife.
 
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SoonerBeAHawk

HR Heisman
Nov 27, 2005
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You mean like good science and honest history? Yeah, I get it that many on the right are, in fact, against teaching good science and honest history. But cons and Rs who don't feel that way should be trying to make public schools better, not undercut them.

By contrast, we public school supporters are worried about the kind of religious and racist propaganda kids may be fed at private and religious schools.

Despite those worries, we are still willing for kids to go to private and public schools. Not thrilled about it but not trying to shut them down. But we don't think funds for public schools - or any public funds - should be diverted to support private or religious schools.
Forgive the sarcasm but ... Wow, you are STILL willing to let kids attend private schools on their parent's dime.

Sounds tenuous, though, in your mind.

Scary stuff, kids.
 

SoonerBeAHawk

HR Heisman
Nov 27, 2005
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Your wife should be less concerned about screen time and more concerned about screen content.

It's evident you've gotten hooked while going down the rabbit hole. Probably have trouble identifying reality, likely weird people out by going on and on about the most recent flavor of conspiracy theory.

Can you account for your whereabouts 1/6/2021?

Don't worry, I'll talk to the wife.
Talk about having trouble identifying reality.

Everything, everyone, and every idea not familiar to you is shaded in colors of 1/6.

You trying to give Chis a run for his money?
 

AreWeCross

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May 2, 2022
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You mean like good science and honest history? Yeah, I get it that many on the right are, in fact, against teaching good science and honest history. But cons and Rs who don't feel that way should be trying to make public schools better, not undercut them.
I agree we should all be working to make public schools better. Starting with discipline. Public schools should have the authority and support to permanently suspend kids who are behavior problems. Once this is accomplished, then I am all in on vouchers and school choice.
By contrast, we public school supporters are worried about the kind of religious and racist propaganda kids may be fed at private and religious schools.
I believe I understand your view, but parental choice is more important than those concerns, in my view.
Despite those worries, we are still willing for kids to go to private and public schools. Not thrilled about it but not trying to shut them down. But we don't think funds for public schools - or any public funds - should be diverted to support private or religious schools.
This a fair view point. I get it. Do public schools get less funding, because students in their district attend private school? Or do they get the same amount of funding either way? Not looking for combat, just looking for information and insight.

BTW, not that you need my validation or encouragement, but this is a very good post. It is constructive and measured(aside from your comment that C's and R's are against good science and honest history). Thank you!
 

CarolinaHawkeye

HR Legend
Gold Member
Feb 5, 2003
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This isn’t a strategy to help people in need. It is a strategy to hurt a specific system/public service that is already under-funded. Thankful enough rural legislators in Iowa listened to their constituents so the similar bill was stopped last session (until next year).
You forgot to add that it's really going to hurt those constituents in rural areas. But the are, evidently, too dumb to realize that.
 

CarolinaHawkeye

HR Legend
Gold Member
Feb 5, 2003
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In 2006, just a few years after DeVos infamously called on conservative Christians to adopt "school choice" as a cause and a means of "greater Kingdom gain," Arizona passed two voucher programs. But three years later, both were found to be unconstitutional means of redirecting public funds to private schools.
Today's Supreme Court doesn't care about the constitution.
 

CaboKP

HR All-State
Nov 21, 2006
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Public school is full of kids with shitty parents. I hear lots of complaints daily about the little bastards and their behavior. The few ruin it for the many. Not sure how to fix it.

I want my son to get a good education, so I send him to a school of my choice.
 

ThorneStockton

HR Legend
Oct 2, 2009
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Talk about having trouble identifying reality.

Everything, everyone, and every idea not familiar to you is shaded in colors of 1/6.

You trying to give Chis a run for his money?

You're the one with the theories. Now you've tried to turn it around on me, bravo.

Do you mind sharing some of your sources for where you "do your own research"?

If you're too protective of your sources, no big deal, like I said I'll talk to the wife.

Don't waste your remaining screen time allotment for today on me though. I'm sure Q has a mission for you.
 

SoonerBeAHawk

HR Heisman
Nov 27, 2005
5,720
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Thorne:

You're the one with the theories. Now you've tried to turn it around on me, bravo.

Umm, yes I have my own opinions of current issues. None about you until you implied a wild accusation about me.

Do you mind sharing some of your sources for where you "do your own research"?

Nice truncated quote. I was encouraging global to do his own research.

Don't waste your remaining screen time allotment for today on me though. I'm sure Q has a mission for you.

You're already taxing my screen time allotment and BAM! You come at me with another spurious accusation/assumption.
 

ThorneStockton

HR Legend
Oct 2, 2009
24,661
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Thorne:

You're the one with the theories. Now you've tried to turn it around on me, bravo.

Umm, yes I have my own opinions of current issues. None about you until you implied a wild accusation about me.

Do you mind sharing some of your sources for where you "do your own research"?

Nice truncated quote. I was encouraging global to do his own research.

Don't waste your remaining screen time allotment for today on me though. I'm sure Q has a mission for you.

You're already taxing my screen time allotment and BAM! You come at me with another spurious accusation/assumption.

You wackjobs are usually more amusing, now my time feels wasted.

Bring out some of your crazier viewpoints please. Let me know if your need primers to get you going.
 

SoonerBeAHawk

HR Heisman
Nov 27, 2005
5,720
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You wackjobs are usually more amusing, now my time feels wasted.

Bring out some of your crazier viewpoints please. Let me know if your need primers to get you going.
I shall not. I believe goodfellow you are just trying to make sport of me!

Yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and decline your offer to post further when I just line-for-line deconstructed your last post and you merrily skipped right over it.

Ingrate!
 

ThorneStockton

HR Legend
Oct 2, 2009
24,661
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I shall not. I believe goodfellow you are just trying to make sport of me!

Yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and decline your offer to post further when I just line-for-line deconstructed your last post and you merrily skipped right over it.

Ingrate!

Your "deconstruction" wasn't amusing at all, it was boring and borderline sad. It didn't merit any attention, especially when you're certainly capable of more. Probably just need a little prodding.

Elections are safe and secure.
Dems aren't for illegal immigration.
CRT is a myth.
Antifa isn't so bad.
Trans are people.
Trump isn't the president.
Global warming is real.
There is no Deep State.

One of those ought to get you going.
 
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SoonerBeAHawk

HR Heisman
Nov 27, 2005
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Your "deconstruction" wasn't amusing at all, it was boring and borderline sad. It didn't merit any attention, especially when you're certainly capable of more. Probably just need a little prodding.

Elections are safe and secure.
Dems aren't for illegal immigration.
CRT is a myth.
Antifa isn't so bad.
Trans are people.
Trump isn't the president.
Global warming is real.
There is no Deep State.

One of those ought to get you going.

Hey, this is going to be easy: This post doesn't merit any attention.

Thanks!
 
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stout1

HR Legend
Jan 21, 2004
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Public school is full of kids with shitty parents. I hear lots of complaints daily about the little bastards and their behavior. The few ruin it for the many. Not sure how to fix it.

I want my son to get a good education, so I send him to a school of my choice.

Same here. I researched the schools in our area and bought a house in the public school district that provided the education I wanted my kids to have. I didn't find a private school that could make my top 20 choices. Not one of them had the breadth of advanced course offerings, arts offerings and vocational/ag programs I desired for my children.

So far we have a rising college sophomore that earned $150k in college scholarships and entered with a year worth of credits in hand, a rising HS senior who is a national merit qualifier and a rising HS sophomore who is deeply involved in the Ag/FFA program. All 3 have won state championships in marching band and have been involved in multiple performing arts groups and have earned AP and dual college credit. The college sophomore left HS with enough experience in marching band that he works for other HS band programs.

Sure, they have to mix with the unwashed masses you have protected your kid from, but they seem to be thriving in spite of that.
 
Nov 28, 2010
79,240
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Maryland
Forgive the sarcasm but ... Wow, you are STILL willing to let kids attend private schools on their parent's dime.

Sounds tenuous, though, in your mind.

Scary stuff, kids.
Please. In a thoroughly adult conversation, I wouldn't have to state such things. But here - as your comment illustrates - even when you preemptively defend yourself against childish right wing attacks, you still leave yourself open to snide BS.
 

SoonerBeAHawk

HR Heisman
Nov 27, 2005
5,720
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Please. In a thoroughly adult conversation, I wouldn't have to state such things. But here - as your comment illustrates - even when you preemptively defend yourself against childish right wing attacks, you still leave yourself open to snide BS.
State what things?

Preemptively defended myself? I was trying to be polite. I will note you as NOT forgiving my sarcasm, I guess.

The right wing is attacking me? Sorry, not your most coherent post.
 

LuteHawk

HR Legend
Nov 30, 2011
28,228
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Currently, there are 14 states who have school voucher
programs. This includes Ohio, Wisconsin, and Indiana in
the Midwest. Parents are opting out of public schools
because they want to have a choice for the education
of their children.
 

stout1

HR Legend
Jan 21, 2004
12,346
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Currently, there are 14 states who have school voucher
programs. This includes Ohio, Wisconsin, and Indiana in
the Midwest. Parents are opting out of public schools
because they want to have a choice for the education
of their children.
They could do that without vouchers for the last 100+ years.

In Indiana, 20% of voucher recipients had a household income over $100,000. 70% have never attended a public school. Many of the kids who use vouchers perform the same or more poorly than their cohort peers that attend public schools.

In Indiana, this has become a big money giveaway to middle class families who want to send their kids to religious schools. Their next move is to give it to Christian fundamentalist homeschool families.
 

stout1

HR Legend
Jan 21, 2004
12,346
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Here is a interesting bon mot…

In our local school district, we have a mom who is a “homeschool advocate”. Her schtick is to tell people how easy homeschooling is and how a parent is the best teacher their child can ever have. She uses her family as an example of how easy it is, even when your kids gets into advanced HS classes and special classes like visual arts, band and orchestra.

She never tells anyone that her kids have attended public school for at least 60% of the time since 7th grade. They are there for advanced science, math, AP courses, and the arts.
 
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23 so far

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Mar 24, 2016
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I’m sure this excites all the people who have moved in from California. Come to Arizona for the cheaper COL and lower taxes, stay for the mega drought and the Cyber Ninja legislature.
Nobody gives a shit what idiot Lib's from California want. Don't like it, move the F back to the Shithole you helped create. Simple.
 

CaboKP

HR All-State
Nov 21, 2006
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Absolutely your choice. However, taxpayers shouldn't fund it.
I wouldn't qualify for funding. Keep the poors in the public school.

Public school is like big government, doesn't spend money wisely. Too much spent on the people who are too lazy to help themselves.
 

stout1

HR Legend
Jan 21, 2004
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I wouldn't qualify for funding. Keep the poors in the public school.

Public school is like big government, doesn't spend money wisely. Too much spent on the people who are too lazy to help themselves.
Our local Catholic K-8 has a higher free and reduced lunch percentage than our local public school.

In Indiana households who earn up to $172k (3x the median household income) qualify for vouchers.
 

CaboKP

HR All-State
Nov 21, 2006
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It sounds like there are people that can afford it, and others who could benefit from the law.
In large part, I don't think this law is necessary.
As you can tell from my other posts, I'm not a fan of what my family has had to deal with regarding a public school. The crap we've dealt with usually makes people say, WTF.
Our local Catholic K-8 has a higher free and reduced lunch percentage than our local public school.

In Indiana households who earn up to $172k (3x the median household income) qualify for vouchers.
 

stout1

HR Legend
Jan 21, 2004
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It sounds like there are people that can afford it, and others who could benefit from the law.
In large part, I don't think this law is necessary.
As you can tell from my other posts, I'm not a fan of what my family has had to deal with regarding a public school. The crap we've dealt with usually makes people say, WTF.

I’m sorry that you had a bad experience. It certainly happens, but in my 2 decade career in public ed (and wife’s 25 year career) those stories tend to be the exception, not the rule. More prevalent in crap public schools, but relatively rare in the 4 districts I have worked in.
 

nbanflfactory

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Aug 22, 2021
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Last Friday, while the country reeled from the Supreme Court overturning Roe v Wade, Arizona made history of a different sort. Legislators in the Grand Canyon State passed a universal school voucher bill that, once signed by Gov. Doug Ducey, will become the most wide-reaching school privatization plan in the country.

In his January State of the State address, Ducey called on Arizona lawmakers to send him bills that would "expand school choice any way we can," and the Republican-dominated legislature obliged, delivering last Friday's bill, which will open a preexisting program for Empowerment Scholarship Accounts (ESAs) up to the entire state. In practice, the law will now give parents who opt out of public schools a debit card for roughly $7,000 per child that can be used to pay for private school tuition, but also for much more: for religious schools, homeschool expenses, tutoring, online classes, education supplies and fees associated with "microschools," in which small groups of parents pool resources to hire teachers.
the rich want tons of uneducated american kids(preferably with no parents)

it's not exactly a secret....
 

WildIowaCat

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Mar 19, 2010
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Since the large majority in this thread seem to be completely unaware of the demographics of Arizona and the almost absolute certainty that it will skew even further in this direction….

The vast majority of new and recent parents in Arizona want this school choice because of the huge disparity in the quality education provided by the excellent private and Catholic school systems in that state. The overwhelming majority in this demographic are either Catholic/other faith or looking for a specialized STEM school (which local Arizona entrepreneurs have invested heavily in privately).

I was fortunately able to pay for my children‘s private schooling and it really hurt me financially, but I also had friends who wanted to do the same who could not afford it. So its just a bit infuriating to hear even though many of us have been paying for public education for others for decades, somehow we should not get a choice for our own kids and get some help.

This program also applies to the many Islamic and Jewish private schools in the state which I know is not all that common in Iowa and may be a shock to some who haven’t visited, so lets perhaps tone down the vitriol towards our Christian brothers and sisters over this. I think we should tamp down on the religious bigotry indeed, the state of Arizona is a heavily Catholic population with many new arrivals every day… they deserve to choose through their elected officials.

I would also like to say that anyone arguing that public schools have not been politicized is being extremely dishonest, I say this as a life long democrat who is pretty shocked at what I have been seeing for the last 8 years.
 
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Tfxchawk

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Jun 22, 2021
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Interesting to watch the usual suspects from the left on here spin and spin and spin. Public schools have done this to themselves in so many ways they forget that ultimately those schools eventually answer to the public. Especially parents that have kids going through the schools. The idea that we have so many leftists on here that are demanding proof or making their typical bullshit sounds in response demonstrates quite effectively that they are either lying (most likely) or they are so ideologically broken they can't see anything but their own opinion. Parents are fed up as are many others with public schools and they positions and behaviors. The response has been a long time coming and is going to get worse for these schools of they don't wise up.

As for public money to private schools? We have done this in Iowa for a very long time. There is a long history of our state giving money to places like Coe College even while we cut the budgets of our public regent universities. We subsidize these schools by millions and millions of dollars a year in state appropriations. Do they have the same admission standards and costs as the public schools? Want to make the claim that is different because they are colleges? It isn't different....just more exclusive.

I love the post above where the lefty completely dismisses the concerns that allowed the new governor of Virginia to win his election. The crt stuff he dismisses was on the state department of education for all to read. The videos of parents confronting school districts are out there. On a more local level Linn Mar just passed a policy that they don't need to inform parents of their kids gender preference at school and label anyone opposed ad transphobic or abusive. Parents and people in general are done with that type of shit and if public schools don't want to change on their own it will happen through other means. Like this.
 

Bulldogs1974

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Oct 16, 2012
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I’m sorry, are you suggesting the private schools will take the money and not accept all students regardless of special needs or background?
They won’t have to. But they don’t have the same accountability.
 

RileyHawk

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Gold Member
Aug 21, 2002
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I still have not seen anyone explain to me how these vouchers will ensure "parental choice". If every child has a "choice" of school to attend and more want to attend the "good" school than they accommodate - who chooses then? What is the criteria? Is it income? Proximity? A lottery?

Heaven help us when Karen's kid is not able to get into the "good" school and has to go to one of the "bad" ones because there is no room.

NO public funds should go to private schools. NONE.
 

lucas80

HR King
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Jan 30, 2008
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They won’t have to. But they don’t have the same accountability.
Then I don't want my taxpayer dollars going to them if they are going to tell the special needs kids or the brown kids to piss off.
 

lucas80

HR King
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Jan 30, 2008
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Interesting to watch the usual suspects from the left on here spin and spin and spin. Public schools have done this to themselves in so many ways they forget that ultimately those schools eventually answer to the public. Especially parents that have kids going through the schools. The idea that we have so many leftists on here that are demanding proof or making their typical bullshit sounds in response demonstrates quite effectively that they are either lying (most likely) or they are so ideologically broken they can't see anything but their own opinion. Parents are fed up as are many others with public schools and they positions and behaviors. The response has been a long time coming and is going to get worse for these schools of they don't wise up.

As for public money to private schools? We have done this in Iowa for a very long time. There is a long history of our state giving money to places like Coe College even while we cut the budgets of our public regent universities. We subsidize these schools by millions and millions of dollars a year in state appropriations. Do they have the same admission standards and costs as the public schools? Want to make the claim that is different because they are colleges? It isn't different....just more exclusive.

I love the post above where the lefty completely dismisses the concerns that allowed the new governor of Virginia to win his election. The crt stuff he dismisses was on the state department of education for all to read. The videos of parents confronting school districts are out there. On a more local level Linn Mar just passed a policy that they don't need to inform parents of their kids gender preference at school and label anyone opposed ad transphobic or abusive. Parents and people in general are done with that type of shit and if public schools don't want to change on their own it will happen through other means. Like this.
LOL. Run for you local school board. The schools have always been accountable. What happened in Virginia wasn't about CRT. CRT isn't taught in the schools there. It was a wedge issue that Youngkin gladly used to activate highly emotional voters.
 
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