Scoring in Duals and Tournaments

[Wink8]

I have been thinking about the current scoring system and think it could be improved for the average fan, increased aggressiveness, and viewing of the later matches. Here is what I am thinking

Dual Meets:

I would propose that in dual meets the team scores be an accumulation of the match score, for example Gillman wins 10-3 and Clark wins 8-0 then the team score going into Brody's match would be 18-3.

Ties would be allowed, Techfalls would be eliminated in duals, and pins would be the match score plus 15 points.

So if the match continued that Brody beat his guy 32-5 the duel score would be 50 to 8. Then BS was beating his guy 12 to 2 when he pinned him the match score would be 62+15 to 10 or 77 to 10.

I believe this would encourage more aggressive wrestling as racking up points and pinning people would be rewarded. Heavyweight bouts would be more watched as they are more likely to have pins and a significant outcome on the match.

Tournaments:

In tournaments, I would bring back the techfall, sudden victory, and no team score would be kept, it would be all about the individual moving on to the next round.

Team and Individual National Championships:

I believe the team NC should be determined by the National Duals Tournament and a week later there would be an individual champion tournament with no team score.

Let me know how you would improve my ideas and/or the current system.

 

[OILCHECKER]

Um, no thanks.

 

[dtripp26]

 

[whejoe]

 

[dtripp26]

Scoring is fine the way it is.

This format you have would completely lessen the impact of two top rated wrestlers (Gilman/Tomasello) who might wrestle a very exciting 4-3 match. In the end that match would have almost zero impact in your scoring system but could very well determine the outcome of the dual in the current scoring system.

As for national duals. It just hasn't been a good format to date and this year's format is just garbage.

Oh, and fight shorts

 

[Wink8]

Um, no thanks.

So you like the current format and wouldn't change anything?

Scoring is fine the way it is.

This format you have would completely lessen the impact of two top rated wrestlers (Gilman/Tomasello) who might wrestle a very exciting 4-3 match. In the end that match would have almost zero impact in your scoring system but could very well determine the outcome of the dual in the current scoring system.

As for national duals. It just hasn't been a good format to date and this year's format is just garbage.

Oh, and fight shorts

That was intentional the emphasis would be on the team and having quality wrestlers at every weight. I don't think that top rated wrestling matches need more hype the fact that it is 4-3 and they are most likely or favorite wrestlers would be the reason to watch.

 

[255]

Wrestling has always had duality to it.
There are teams that are great in duals but don't do well in tournaments. There are teams that can't when Duals but can turn around and win a tournament by semifinals. Sometimes a team can be dominant in both areas.

I could understand why there are people who would like to combine these components to determine one overall national champion. I'm not one of those people. I have no issue with the national duels champion as long as the formate is appropriate. Wrestling is first and foremost an individual sport and the team sport aspect is secondary. The traditional national championship tournament in my opinion shows who the best teams are.

In the end it would still be the same handful of Teams that can be competitive for a national title. Adding a dual format does not give any of the other schools any kind of advantage your leg up. All it would do is change the top three or four schools in ranking but only by a little bit. To me the whole idea of the combination is just trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist. The people that run the national duels are just trying to stay relevant. They see the only way of doing that is by hitching up to the national tournament.

The scenario I don't like is for a team to out right win the national tournament but not be crowned national champions because of the dual. Any new fans paying attention to the national tournament will all of a sudden become confused and it takes away from the spectacle.

Have a national dual tournament and let it be fun. Crown a national duels champion. Leave the big tournament alone and let the trophy continue to go to the team that can produce the most individual national champions are all Americans.

Only my two cents.

 

[Wink8]

Wrestling has always had duality to it.
There are teams that are great in duals but don't do well in tournaments. There are teams that can't when Duals but can turn around and win a tournament by semifinals. Sometimes a team can be dominant in both areas.

I could understand why there are people who would like to combine these components to determine one overall national champion. I'm not one of those people. I have no issue with the national duels champion as long as the formate is appropriate. Wrestling is first and foremost an individual sport and the team sport aspect is secondary. The traditional national championship tournament in my opinion shows who the best teams are.

In the end it would still be the same handful of Teams that can be competitive for a national title. Adding a dual format does not give any of the other schools any kind of advantage your leg up. All it would do is change the top three or four schools in ranking but only by a little bit. To me the whole idea of the combination is just trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist. The people that run the national duels are just trying to stay relevant. They see the only way of doing that is by hitching up to the national tournament.

The scenario I don't like is for a team to out right win the national tournament but not be crowned national champions because of the dual. Any new fans paying attention to the national tournament will all of a sudden become confused and it takes away from the spectacle.

Have a national dual tournament and let it be fun. Crown a national duels champion. Leave the big tournament alone and let the trophy continue to go to the team that can produce the most individual national champions are all Americans.

Only my two cents.

I appreciate your thoughts

 

[neversurrender]

Either turn national duals into an actual bracketed tournament where we actual crown a dual champ or drop it. Otherwise leave the rest of it alone. Other continuing to tweak the stalling rules.

The biggest issue with your idea on the scoring for duals would be this take the iowa team this year say gilman and clark win their matches 30-5 and 30-0 so the team score after 2 matches is 60-5. I an new fan going to continue to watch if it's out of hand in the first 2 or 3 matches? No likely they will change the channel. If you turn on a football game and it's 55-0 are you going to keep watching or will you turn to something else?

 

[OkieSpladle]

Wink8, this sort of scoring system has been tried by the NWCA in a few duals over the last year or two. It is an interesting concept, but it has some potential down sides. For one, if every point counts all match long, an over-matched wrestler would have every incentive to stall, even more so than they would now. Teams like Central Michigan and Missouri would suddenly become much more competitive simply due to their style, which is awful to watch in general. Sure, the wrestler who has the advantage would also have even more incentive to attack, but I think we've seen that stallers and defensive wrestlers are, currently, really good at slowing things down. Pins are difficult to account for as well and, though I like your proposed solution, I'm not sure someone who goes out and throws a guy on his back for a quick fall should get less points than someone who racks up a bunch of points and gets a fall late. The goal should be to always go for the fall no matter what the match score is, IMO.

One interesting thing about your post is that many who advocate for duals as the better way to determine the best team (something I disagree with) cite how dual scoring limits the impact of a great wrestler and, in doing so, encourages a well rounded team. Your scoring system would incentivize great wrestlers who score lots of points. much like tournament scoring does, but to an even greater extent. Are we ready for a team to win 9 matches by 2-3 points, but lose when their 3rd string guy gets thrown out due to injuries and gets pinned when down by 20? I'm not.

The trouble with the scoring of any format is that truly getting an accurate picture of performance makes the rules more and more complicated. The more basic and understandable it is for the fans, generally, the more loopholes and incongruities it has.

 

[Wink8]

Wink8, this sort of scoring system has been tried by the NWCA in a few duals over the last year or two. It is an interesting concept, but it has some potential down sides. For one, if every point counts all match long, an over-matched wrestler would have every incentive to stall, even more so than they would now. Teams like Central Michigan and Missouri would suddenly become much more competitive simply due to their style, which is awful to watch in general. Sure, the wrestler who has the advantage would also have even more incentive to attack, but I think we've seen that stallers and defensive wrestlers are, currently, really good at slowing things down. Pins are difficult to account for as well and, though I like your proposed solution, I'm not sure someone who goes out and throws a guy on his back for a quick fall should get less points than someone who racks up a bunch of points and gets a fall late. The goal should be to always go for the fall no matter what the match score is, IMO.

One interesting thing about your post is that many who advocate for duals as the better way to determine the best team (something I disagree with) cite how dual scoring limits the impact of a great wrestler and, in doing so, encourages a well rounded team. Your scoring system would incentivize great wrestlers who score lots of points. much like tournament scoring does, but to an even greater extent. Are we ready for a team to win 9 matches by 2-3 points, but lose when their 3rd string guy gets thrown out due to injuries and gets pinned when down by 20? I'm not.

The trouble with the scoring of any format is that truly getting an accurate picture of performance makes the rules more and more complicated. The more basic and understandable it is for the fans, generally, the more loopholes and incongruities it has.

My response would be:


Do you know if there is any way I could watch these matches?
I also believe that some of the mat rules could be modified as well to reward aggressive wrestling which would help address stalling styles.
Do you think if a pin was say an automatic 15 point addition to the team score and the mat score didn't matter that would be better? genuinely interested
I would also like to see if a team has ever won 9 matches by 2 or 3 points, also forfeiting a weight would also still be allowed for 15. My point was to incentive aggressive wrestling even more.

 

[Wink8]

Either turn national duals into an actual bracketed tournament where we actual crown a dual champ or drop it. Otherwise leave the rest of it alone. Other continuing to tweak the stalling rules.

The biggest issue with your idea on the scoring for duals would be this take the iowa team this year say gilman and clark win their matches 30-5 and 30-0 so the team score after 2 matches is 60-5. I an new fan going to continue to watch if it's out of hand in the first 2 or 3 matches? No likely they will change the channel. If you turn on a football game and it's 55-0 are you going to keep watching or will you turn to something else?

You' re right 55-0 deficit would be discouraging for a casual fan, but 10-0 is quit steep in the current system and the addition of more scoring could give a team that is down more hope which may keep the fan around.

 

[OkieSpladle]

My response would be:


Do you know if there is any way I could watch these matches?
I also believe that some of the mat rules could be modified as well to reward aggressive wrestling which would help address stalling styles.
Do you think if a pin was say an automatic 15 point addition to the team score and the mat score didn't matter that would be better? genuinely interested
I would also like to see if a team has ever won 9 matches by 2 or 3 points, also forfeiting a weight would also still be allowed for 15. My point was to incentive aggressive wrestling even more.

I don't know of any video available, but there was a thread with some links on it here: http://board.themat.com/index.php?/topic/8448-ncwa-optional-scoring/

I like where your head is to encourage aggressive wrestling, but its a difficult problem. Most anything you can do to encourage people to score also encourages their opponent to not let them. The recent rule changes aimed at eliminating certain positions which are only used to stall is a step in the right direction as is the edge of mat rules, but those are in dire need of clarification/simplification.

To do so with team scoring I think you almost have to use 2 different mechanisms, 1 aimed at the current time (in this case team score) and the other aimed at something else, perhaps qualification for NCAAs (or at least earning a qualifying spot)? If 2-0 and 9-7 are the same for team score, we haven't encouraged being aggressive so much as we have widening the gap. Taking risk is something we want to see more of, but if doing so could also result in the team score moving the wrong way, we may end up where we largely are now...many wrestlers only attacking when they know they have the upper hand. What if that 9-7 match was more valuable to both wrestlers for qualification purposes than the 2-0 one would be? We already have a mathematical formula that most fans don't understand (RPI) as one of the qualification factors. What if we replaced it with a formula that encouraged aggressive, high scoring wrestling? There are many details to be worked out (adjusting for schedule strength, figuring out the relative number of points to be awarded for a 1-0 win versus an 8-7 loss versus a win by fall, etc), but if individuals who score more are more likely to get into NCAAs, it would encourage the entire system to teach more of that type of wrestling. I would never want to have it be the sole deciding factor, winning matches is still of utmost importance, but as one of 3-4 factors? Why not?

I'm rambling on, but one other thing you asked about. The fall is the toughest thing to account for in your type of scoring system. Making it a flat 15 doesn't work because, IMO, it should always be worth more than anything else. I've heard a few different solutions, but my favorite would be capping the match points difference at 20-25 and making a fall worth some amount more than that. We could go back to the old freestyle rule where, if you got up by 20-25 you would be asked if you wanted to continue to try to get the fall. If not, match termination right there, if so, anything can happen, but you can't score a difference more than the cap for team score purposes unless you get the fall.

 

[ping72]

Your team could win 9/10 matches, all close scores. But lose the meet b/c one kid gets tech falled or pinned?