Senator claims bipartisan gun deal

pjhawk

HR Legend
Oct 13, 2001
17,342
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What did you expect to happen? What would have been a "start" to you?
There isn't any "start" here. There isn't going to be any additional legislation expanding on this legislation.

The Democrats got nothing that Republicans would not have already agreed to. A start would be for Democrats to pass and campaign on universal background checks and a ban on assault/automatic weapons--measures supported by large majorities of the population.

Make the Republicans pay for their intransigence on this issue, there probably isn't any meaningful legislation that can pass in the Congress right now, so use it as a campaign issue to force real change.
 
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TylerJ76

HR All-American
Jun 11, 2021
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Again, to reiterate. It's not a start, it's an end. It's an attempt by both political parties (and for the Dems this is a completely insane strategy) to take the issue off the table, it's a finish.

Where is the evidence that this is a "start"? Again, it's an end.

And then you throw in a complete red herring about voting to take away all the guns.

Alright.

I take this as a good thing.
You want to be irrational and a dick to everyone. So whatever.
 

lucas80

HR King
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Jan 30, 2008
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I think you'll be surprised by the Republican support.
A lot of Republicans have passed their primary challenger. There will be some that will vote for this because they can say they did something to the angry moms, and to the NRA voters they can say they didn't take away any guns.
 
Feb 9, 2013
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A lot of Republicans have passed their primary challenger. There will be some that will vote for this because they can say they did something to the angry moms, and to the NRA voters they can say they didn't take away any guns.
And maybe they see that their political careers don’t come crashing down simply because they bucked the NRA. And maybe next time they’re willing to go a little further and vote for additional reasonable restrictions. I believe most people think this is a small step, but a positive one.
 

RileyHawk

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There isn't any "start" here. There isn't going to be any additional legislation expanding on this legislation.

The Democrats got nothing that Republicans would not have already agreed to. A start would be for Democrats to pass and campaign on universal background checks and a ban on assault/automatic weapons--measures supported by large majorities of the population.

Make the Republicans pay for their intransigence on this issue, there probably isn't any meaningful legislation that can pass in the Congress right now, so use it as a campaign issue to force real change.
So your stance is the Democrats should have taken nothing less than universal background checks and an all out ban on on assault weapons? That it's at least that or nothing?

If so, you're essentially advocating doing absolutely nothing which is exactly in line with the far right wing. Your way results in a complete right wing win.
 

pjhawk

HR Legend
Oct 13, 2001
17,342
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What was the GOP putting on the table before Uvalde? I’m not aware of any discussion.
Crazy how you can’t see this as progress, simply because the GOP gains something too.
Exactly. Nothing, and I mean nothing in this bill is anything they've had on the table as something they would oppose.

What's been on the table for Republicans is their positions on stuff like universal background checks and bans/restrictions on assault/automatic weapons.

And there you go with the logical fallacies bullshit with your throw-in that I'm not seeing this "as progress simply because the GOP gains something too."

No dumb ass, I oppose the bill because it's a bad bill that does next to nothing to solve the problem.
 

pjhawk

HR Legend
Oct 13, 2001
17,342
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And maybe they see that their political careers don’t come crashing down simply because they bucked the NRA. And maybe next time they’re willing to go a little further and vote for additional reasonable restrictions. I believe most people think this is a small step, but a positive one.
LOL. How is the NRA being "bucked" here?
 

bhawk24bob

HR Legend
Jul 8, 2001
18,062
6,066
113
Sounds good, the door got opened. We will eventually have another mass murder, or maybe a dozen before this is implemented, that will push the door open to more. It will eventually get the weapons banned as people continue to grow disatisified.
 

billanole

HR Legend
Mar 5, 2005
12,479
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113
Exactly. Nothing, and I mean nothing in this bill is anything they've had on the table as something they would oppose.

What's been on the table for Republicans is their positions on stuff like universal background checks and bans/restrictions on assault/automatic weapons.

And there you go with the logical fallacies bullshit with your throw-in that I'm not seeing this "as progress simply because the GOP gains something too."

No dumb ass, I oppose the bill because it's a bad bill that does next to nothing to solve the problem.
If you say so, it must be thus.
There is some progress in that bill. Granted not the pieces that will make the most difference, perhaps, but progress beats the status quo.
 
Feb 9, 2013
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Exactly. Nothing, and I mean nothing in this bill is anything they've had on the table as something they would oppose.

What's been on the table for Republicans is their positions on stuff like universal background checks and bans/restrictions on assault/automatic weapons.

And there you go with the logical fallacies bullshit with your throw-in that I'm not seeing this "as progress simply because the GOP gains something too."

No dumb ass, I oppose the bill because it's a bad bill that does next to nothing to solve the problem.
I’m tired of debating with you. You’re an angry, cynical person.
 

pjhawk

HR Legend
Oct 13, 2001
17,342
9,744
113
So your stance is the Democrats should have taken nothing less than universal background checks and an all out ban on on assault weapons? That it's at least that or nothing?

If so, you're essentially advocating doing absolutely nothing which is exactly in line with the far right wing. Your way results in a complete right wing win.
I'm saying the Democrats could at least demand actions as a "start" on two of the things when it comes to guns that they have large majority support (universal background checks and bans on assault weapons). And use the type of sustained media/political offensive that Republicans do on bullshit like CRT to get it enacted into law.

Nothing says completely broken political system more than this type of "compromise" bill that does next to nothing to prevent another Uvalde and also doesn't represent at all public opinion. It's this type of nothing crap that makes people cynical about politics.
 

billanole

HR Legend
Mar 5, 2005
12,479
13,685
113
I'm saying the Democrats could at least demand actions as a "start" on two of the things when it comes to guns that they have large majority support (universal background checks and bans on assault weapons). And use the type of sustained media/political offensive that Republicans do on bullshit like CRT to get it enacted into law.

Nothing says completely broken political system more than this type of "compromise" bill that does next to nothing to prevent another Uvalde and also doesn't represent at all public opinion. It's this type of nothing crap that makes people cynical about politics.
60 votes in the Senate would not happen at this time with what you demand to be included in the bill. Incremental change is how this has to start.
 

ichawkeye

HR Heisman
Gold Member
Jan 11, 2003
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This bill does very little. If I were Biden, I would not leap to sign this bill, and I would publicly challenge for something of greater substance because it fails to reflect what a considerable majority of Americans believe is appropriate.

Use it to point out the inaction when constituents are screaming for it.
 
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pjhawk

HR Legend
Oct 13, 2001
17,342
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113
I’m tired of debating with you. You’re an angry, cynical person.
You're tired of "debating" with me because you don't have any responses. Again, what are the Republicans compromising on when it comes to this bill? What is in it that would not have passed prior to Uvalde?

And of course I'm an angry, cynical person when it comes to this issue, I'm sick of the massacres and want something real done to stop them.
 

billanole

HR Legend
Mar 5, 2005
12,479
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You're tired of "debating" with me because you don't have any responses. Again, what are the Republicans compromising on when it comes to this bill? What is in it that would not have passed prior to Uvalde?

And of course I'm an angry, cynical person when it comes to this issue, I'm sick of the massacres and want something real done to stop them.
What did the Republicans bring forward, since they are OK with this bill? Surely they would want to be seen as “doing something” about the issue.
This is the first chance at even incremental Bi-Partisan movement on guns in what, decades?
 

RileyHawk

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Aug 21, 2002
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I'm saying the Democrats could at least demand actions as a "start" on two of the things when it comes to guns that they have large majority support (universal background checks and bans on assault weapons). And use the type of sustained media/political offensive that Republicans do on bullshit like CRT to get it enacted into law.

Nothing says completely broken political system more than this type of "compromise" bill that does next to nothing to prevent another Uvalde and also doesn't represent at all public opinion. It's this type of nothing crap that makes people cynical about politics.
What you are saying is the Democrats should decline this compromise and try to put pressure on the republicans to do more. What you ignore is that will give the republicans a narrative that they were willing to compromise but the Democrats will only accept taking all the guns. Nothing will pass, status quo is maintained like the republicans want and they can claim to have been reasonable.

Your strategy is a losing proposition in a variety of ways.
 

GroupThink

HR All-State
May 3, 2022
603
396
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L Oh Freaking L. What does that even mean in the context of this thread? You're just a troll--so this is your nonsense territory, but I've pointed out before the nonsense world that guys like Nole end up in with their fetishization of "bi-partisanship" at all costs. Especially in the current environment of an openly fascist/authoritarian trending Republican party.

But just to say it flat-out, I'm the guy bashing the Democratic party in this thread, LOL that I'm the "party over country" guy here.

And another thing, how the hell does "party over country" even enter into this discussion? We're discussing legitimate political issues, and for our system to work the two main political parties need to represent the two sides of this issue. Right now the vast majorities that support real gun law reform are not represented by the leadership of either major political party. I'm standing up for those vast majorities in this thread..
Why don’t you just get your buddy to back you up
here? The only poster on your side is noticeably silent. Troll this, NC that. You guys are really grasping. Bipartisanship at all costs? That’s insane. And no, most Americans are not on board with your ideas- but they likely are on board with what has been proposed.
 
Feb 9, 2013
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You're tired of "debating" with me because you don't have any responses. Again, what are the Republicans compromising on when it comes to this bill? What is in it that would not have passed prior to Uvalde?

And of course I'm an angry, cynical person when it comes to this issue, I'm sick of the massacres and want something real done to stop them.
I’m tired of arguing on an iphone.

You claim there’s nothing in this compromise that the GOP wouldn’t have already supported. What makes you say that and how do you know that? Are the Dem negotiators that clueless and naive that they worked tirelessly for the last week or two to achieve something they could’ve just gotten by asking nicely? Come on.

You claim Dems should push for an outright ban. That’s a nonstarter, and you know that. That’s why I say you seem to prefer 100% of nothing. You’d rather blow up a deal holding out for the impossible instead of compromise and maybe lose a political taking point.

However, if as you say a ban is what the public wants, the Democrats should keep campaigning on it. That should help them dominate in the upcoming elections.

You just are pissed because you think the Dems gave in and took the gun issue off the table for the campaign. Whatever. Others of us see this proposal as an incremental step. Certainly not perfect, but a step in the right direction.
 

billanole

HR Legend
Mar 5, 2005
12,479
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113
What is the question here?
What kind of legislation are the Repubs bringing forward regarding guns? You mentioned that they would not disagree with anything in the bill being discussed in this thread. Surely they would want to get out front and show how important progress on this issue is to them. Steal the Democrats thunder, per se.
 

pjhawk

HR Legend
Oct 13, 2001
17,342
9,744
113
What you are saying is the Democrats should decline this compromise and try to put pressure on the republicans to do more. What you ignore is that will give the republicans a narrative that they were willing to compromise but the Democrats will only accept taking all the guns. Nothing will pass, status quo is maintained like the republicans want and they can claim to have been reasonable.

Your strategy is a losing proposition in a variety of ways.
Oh my freaking God. The fetishization of "bi-partisan" by Democrats. Again, this isn't a compromise, it's a surrender. Again, What did the Republicans "compromise" on?

And I love the accusations that I'm the one that's "playing politics" or "party over country" or what the hell ever in this thread. I'm advocating for doing what's right and what's supported by large majorities of the population.
 

GroupThink

HR All-State
May 3, 2022
603
396
63
69
Oh my freaking God. The fetishization of "bi-partisan" by Democrats. Again, this isn't a compromise, it's a surrender. Again, What did the Republicans "compromise" on?

And I love the accusations that I'm the one that's "playing politics" or "party over country" or what the hell ever in this thread. I'm advocating for doing what's right and what's supported by large majorities of the population.
And you’re wrong. Sorry, try harder next time. Something > Nothing. You’re pushing for nothing.
 
Feb 9, 2013
21,026
58,912
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Oh my freaking God. The fetishization of "bi-partisan" by Democrats. Again, this isn't a compromise, it's a surrender. Again, What did the Republicans "compromise" on?

And I love the accusations that I'm the one that's "playing politics" or "party over country" or what the hell ever in this thread. I'm advocating for doing what's right and what's supported by large majorities of the population.
Then the Democrats haven’t lost a thing by this deal! Put this win in their back pocket and go out on the trail and tell the voters it’s all they could get from the evil, NRA-beholden GOP so vote us in.

You are making no sense in this thread.
 
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RileyHawk

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Aug 21, 2002
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Oh my freaking God. The fetishization of "bi-partisan" by Democrats. Again, this isn't a compromise, it's a surrender. Again, What did the Republicans "compromise" on?

And I love the accusations that I'm the one that's "playing politics" or "party over country" or what the hell ever in this thread. I'm advocating for doing what's right and what's supported by large majorities of the population.
It is. You're simply too emotional to see it. Red flag laws and under 21 restrictions are a compromise from what we have and the stance of the hardened gun lovers.

The accusations toward you are that your being completely impractical and your position would lead to nothing being done at all. It's a very immature and naïve stance.
 

pjhawk

HR Legend
Oct 13, 2001
17,342
9,744
113
What kind of legislation are the Repubs bringing forward regarding guns? You mentioned that they would not disagree with anything in the bill being discussed in this thread. Surely they would want to get out front and show how important progress on this issue is to them. Steal the Democrats thunder, per se.
The Republicans have no interest in stealing the Democrats thunder on this issue, they just want the issue to go away. That's all they care about, and the Democrats have done their best to oblige them here, complete without demanding even the slightest "compromise" from the Republicans on anything.
 

RileyHawk

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Aug 21, 2002
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The Republicans have no interest in stealing the Democrats thunder on this issue, they just want the issue to go away. That's all they care about, and the Democrats have done their best to oblige them here, complete without demanding even the slightest "compromise" from the Republicans on anything.
What's to stop the Democrats from continuing to make this an issue?
 

billanole

HR Legend
Mar 5, 2005
12,479
13,685
113
The Republicans have no interest in stealing the Democrats thunder on this issue, they just want the issue to go away. That's all they care about, and the Democrats have done their best to oblige them here, complete without demanding even the slightest "compromise" from the Republicans on anything.
Are you just gonna continue to ignore the 60 vote number in the Senate?
Take the win and continue the fight. We did not get into this mess overnight and Rome will not get built in one bill.
Walk away, give the pubs ammo that they will willing but the Crats were not, watch the House change leadership, and lose any chance at progress. What sense does that make?
Making sausage is not pretty. Sometimes it takes time.
 

pjhawk

HR Legend
Oct 13, 2001
17,342
9,744
113
It is. You're simply too emotional to see it. Red flag laws and under 21 restrictions are a compromise from what we have and the stance of the hardened gun lovers.

The accusations toward you are that your being completely impractical and your position would lead to nothing being done at all. It's a very immature and naïve stance.
These aren't "compromises". That's the point. Republicans in Florida passed a "red flag" law in 2018. Laws that only hardened gun lovers oppose aren't "compromise" laws.

It's like saying anything that passes the Congress and is opposed exclusively by AOC is "compromise" legislation.
 

HawkeyeShawn

HR Heisman
Nov 9, 2001
7,309
6,520
113
I think you'll be surprised by the Republican support.
Wait a minute, we were to,d over and over again that the Republicans will do nothing on this issue. How can we possibly have a bipartisan gun bill in a matter of 2 weeks?
 

RileyHawk

HR Legend
Gold Member
Aug 21, 2002
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These aren't "compromises". That's the point. Republicans in Florida passed a "red flag" law in 2018. Laws that only hardened gun lovers oppose aren't "compromise" laws.

It's like saying anything that passes the Congress and is opposed exclusively by AOC is "compromise" legislation.
Apparently you don't realize there are 49 other states that aren't Florida. Your have demonstrated an inability to look at this practically and without hysterics.
 

pjhawk

HR Legend
Oct 13, 2001
17,342
9,744
113
Are you just gonna continue to ignore the 60 vote number in the Senate?
Take the win and continue the fight. We did not get into this mess overnight and Rome will not get built in one bill.
Walk away, give the pubs ammo that they will willing but the Crats were not, watch the House change leadership, and lose any chance at progress. What sense does that make?
Making sausage is not pretty. Sometimes it takes time.
Annnnnnnd now we're switching subjects to procedural obstacles in the Senate.

First off, Democrats need to stop obsessing about what the Republicans "are gonna do" and go on offense themselves, and start thinking about what needs to be done and what has support from the American people. Start doing something instead of obsessing about what you can't do and what you can get permission from the Republicans to do.

Second, Republicans want this issue to GO AWAY, they're not remotely interested in trying to make political hay on this issue by claiming they were willing to do stuff but the Dems wouldn't agree.
 
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RileyHawk

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Annnnnnnd now we're switching subjects to procedural obstacles in the Senate.

First off, Democrats need to stop obsessing about what the Republicans "are gonna do" and go on offense themselves, and start thinking about what needs to be done and what has support from the American people. Start doing something instead of obsessing about what you can't do and what you can get permission from the Republicans to do.

Second, Republicans want this issue to GO AWAY, they're not remotely interested in trying to make political hay on this issue by claiming they were willing to do stuff but the Dems wouldn't agree.
WTF? There is no use bringing a bill to vote if they don't have enough republican support to overcome a filibuster. You're advocating that the Democrats yell and scream and gnash their teeth while accomplishing nothing in the way of gun control. It's dumb.
 

hwk23

HR All-American
Nov 22, 2010
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I heard on Bloomberg today that Biden says there are now no obstacles to a gun control bill passing and he will sign it.

Edit to add Biden's quote:

“Obviously, it does not do everything that I think is needed, but it reflects important steps in the right direction, and would be the most significant gun safety legislation to pass Congress in decades,” Biden added.

“With bipartisan support, there are no excuses for delay, and no reason why it should not quickly move through the Senate and the House. Each day that passes, more children are killed in this country: the sooner it comes to my desk, the sooner I can sign it, and the sooner we can use these measures to save lives,” Biden concluded.
 
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Gimmered

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Nov 9, 2005
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McCook Nebraska
What did the Republicans "compromise" on? What that they've openly opposed was included in this bill? What is included here that would not have passed before Uvalde?
Compromise doesn't mean that they give in on 5 points when the other side want's 10. What did the Democrats offer in return?
 
Feb 9, 2013
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Annnnnnnd now we're switching subjects to procedural obstacles in the Senate.

First off, Democrats need to stop obsessing about what the Republicans "are gonna do" and go on offense themselves, and start thinking about what needs to be done and what has support from the American people. Start doing something instead of obsessing about what you can't do and what you can get permission from the Republicans to do.

Second, Republicans want this issue to GO AWAY, they're not remotely interested in trying to make political hay on this issue by claiming they were willing to do stuff but the Dems wouldn't agree.
What in the heck are you talking about? Abolishing the filibuster?

You are not seeing clearly, at all.
 

pjhawk

HR Legend
Oct 13, 2001
17,342
9,744
113
Then the Democrats haven’t lost a thing by this deal! Put this win in their back pocket and go out on the trail and tell the voters it’s all they could get from the evil, NRA-beholden GOP so vote us in.

You are making no sense in this thread.
But that's not what's going to happen. Something that would have passed 2 weeks ago isn't a compromise. I'm so sick of Democrats getting pantsed over and over and over by Republicans.

What's going to happen is that Republicans are going to wink at their base and say "see, nothing happened", and then self-righteously point to this "compromise" as showing they "did something" if Dems try to make any trouble for them in the fall. But even that's not going to happen, the issue will be regarded as "settled" now, the best that could be done was done and on to the next thing.

It's a disaster. Again, LOL that this is some kind of "start" or "incremental progress", it's the end.
 
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