On Jan. 6, 2021, around the time that thousands of Donald Trump’s supporters swarmed the U.S. Capitol, a top Trump appointee at the U.S. State Department met with two activists who had been key to spreading the false narrative that the presidential election had been stolen.
The meeting came as Trump’s allies were pressing theories that election machines had been hacked by foreign powers and were angling for Trump to employ the vast powers of the national security establishment to seize voting machines or even rerun the election.
Robert A. Destro, a law professor at Catholic University of America then serving as an assistant secretary of state, confirmed to The Washington Post he met with the two men — Colorado podcaster Joe Oltmann and Michigan lawyer Matthew DePerno — in the midst of the tumultuous day.
The two men have previously claimed to have huddled on Jan. 6 with State Department leaders, who Oltmann has said were sympathetic to the claims that a “coup” was underway to steal the presidency from Trump. They have not identified with whom they met. Destro’s acknowledgment is the first independent confirmation that they successfully gained the high-level audience. It is unclear whether the meeting led to any action.
Oltmann and DePerno played important behind-the-scenes roles in crafting the baseless allegations that the election was stolen from Trump, a review of emails and public statements from Trump allies shows. The State Department meeting provides new evidence of the success that activists spreading false claims about the election had in gaining access to top administration officials. Trump chief of staff Mark Meadows was in close contact with activists pushing false fraud narratives, as were high-level officials at the Justice Department and the Department of Homeland Security.
“The Attack: Before, During and After”
Little is known about the origins of the session at the State Department. The department is responsible for international diplomacy, and former officials said meetings that revolve around domestic elections would be highly unusual.
In response to questions from The Post, Destro confirmed in an email that he met with Oltmann and DePerno, now the Republican nominee for attorney general in Michigan. But Destro declined to answer other questions, including what was discussed that day, whether other officials took part and whether anyone took action as a result.
“I met with hundreds of American citizens and foreign nationals during my time at State, all of whom had foreign-focused issues to discuss,” wrote Destro, who served as the assistant secretary of state for Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor from September 2019 to the end of Trump’s term. “I won’t talk about any of the details of those meetings, either.”
Before joining the State Department, Destro was a law professor who specialized in religious liberty and had served as an adviser to religious organizations. He has appeared on a podcast hosted by Tony Perkins, president of the socially conservative Family Research Council.
Oltmann and DePerno did not respond to questions about the meeting.
As part of his candidacy to become Michigan’s top law enforcement officer, DePerno described the meeting on a questionnaire from a pro-Trump interest group. “On January 6, 2021, I was in the State Department briefing Mike Pompeo’s staff on how the election was stolen,” DePerno wrote. He added in parenthesis: “NOTE to reader: don’t tell the Feds!"
In various podcasts and on social media, Oltmann has also described the meeting, suggesting he had a series of high-level meetings with officials at the State Department and asserting that they were impressed by information he presented that he claimed proved the election was stolen. He has been coy about naming the officials.
“I was actually in the State Department meeting with leadership,” he said in one podcast appearance on Jan. 11, 2021. He said he had not “been cleared” to name the officials with whom he met but added: “I met with leadership at every level. Every level. Bar none.”
Oltmann also described being taken to a secure area of the building that was “cherry wood lined” with “pictures of past presidents and people who have served.” The description appears to match the area of the State Department’s seventh floor known as Mahogany Row, where the offices of the secretary and his top aides are located. The assistant secretary position then-held by Destro does not typically have an office on Mahogany Row.
In a social media post, Oltmann wrote that he had met with “the right people” at the State Department, and, in another podcast appearance, he described how department officials reacted with shock to the information he shared.
“They said, ‘If this is true, this is a coup,’ ” Oltmann recounted. “I said, ‘Well, that’s exactly, that’s what I would call it.’ ”
A spokesman for then-Secretary of State Mike Pompeo declined to comment about the meeting, including whether the secretary attended the session or had been aware of it. Pompeo’s public schedule indicates that he was attending meetings in Washington that day.
Pompeo in November 2020: 'There will be a smooth transition to a second Trump administration'
Then-Secretary of State Mike Pompeo was asked at a Nov. 10, 2020, news conference if the State Department would engage with the Biden transition team. (Video: Reuters)
A Trump loyalist, Pompeo expressed sympathy for the then-president’s refusal to concede the election before Jan. 6. Asked by reporters a week after the election whether the department was engaging in a “smooth transition” to Joe Biden’s administration, Pompeo responded that there would be “a smooth transition to a second Trump administration, all right” — a remark that some of his aides later characterized as a joke.
Pompeo clings to Trump’s legacy with an eye toward inheriting the MAGA base
But Pompeo was also one of the first Trump Cabinet members to forcefully denounce the Jan. 6 attack, tweeting at 6:16 that evening that the storming of the Capitol had been “unacceptable.”
The House committee investigating the Jan. 6 attack has expressed interest in the origin and weaponization of false claims that elections machines were hacked.
Trump’s outside supporters sought out potential allies across the government, including officials whose normal portfolios did not include elections. At the Justice Department, for instance, Trump allies worked closely with a mid-level official named Jeffrey Bossert Clark who was otherwise responsible for environmental civil litigation. Clark has said his communications were lawful.
The State Department’s designated point person on a White House deputies group that dealt with the possibility of foreign interference in the 2020 election was then-Deputy Secretary of State Steve Biegun.
In an interview, Biegun said that by Jan. 6, top government officials were convinced that theories such as those circulated by Oltmann and DePerno that held that foreign forces had hacked voting machines were “just complete and utter nonsense.”
“The information that has been at least disclosed by advocates of this theory has absolutely zero correlation with anything that was available to senior government officials, who had access to every bit of information within the United States government,” Biegun said.
Biegun said that, because of the coronavirus pandemic and street closures in Washington as a result of the events at the Capitol, he was one of the few employees working at the State Department on Jan. 6. He said he was not aware of Oltmann and DePerno’s meeting.
Virginia Bennett, a former career Foreign Service officer who was Destro’s predecessor as acting assistant secretary at the start of the Trump administration, said the job generally involves meeting with foreigners, as well as American activists involved in human rights advocacy overseas. But, she said, it would be atypical for the assistant secretary to hold meetings about U.S. elections.
The meeting came as Trump’s allies were pressing theories that election machines had been hacked by foreign powers and were angling for Trump to employ the vast powers of the national security establishment to seize voting machines or even rerun the election.
Robert A. Destro, a law professor at Catholic University of America then serving as an assistant secretary of state, confirmed to The Washington Post he met with the two men — Colorado podcaster Joe Oltmann and Michigan lawyer Matthew DePerno — in the midst of the tumultuous day.
The two men have previously claimed to have huddled on Jan. 6 with State Department leaders, who Oltmann has said were sympathetic to the claims that a “coup” was underway to steal the presidency from Trump. They have not identified with whom they met. Destro’s acknowledgment is the first independent confirmation that they successfully gained the high-level audience. It is unclear whether the meeting led to any action.
Oltmann and DePerno played important behind-the-scenes roles in crafting the baseless allegations that the election was stolen from Trump, a review of emails and public statements from Trump allies shows. The State Department meeting provides new evidence of the success that activists spreading false claims about the election had in gaining access to top administration officials. Trump chief of staff Mark Meadows was in close contact with activists pushing false fraud narratives, as were high-level officials at the Justice Department and the Department of Homeland Security.
“The Attack: Before, During and After”
Little is known about the origins of the session at the State Department. The department is responsible for international diplomacy, and former officials said meetings that revolve around domestic elections would be highly unusual.
In response to questions from The Post, Destro confirmed in an email that he met with Oltmann and DePerno, now the Republican nominee for attorney general in Michigan. But Destro declined to answer other questions, including what was discussed that day, whether other officials took part and whether anyone took action as a result.
“I met with hundreds of American citizens and foreign nationals during my time at State, all of whom had foreign-focused issues to discuss,” wrote Destro, who served as the assistant secretary of state for Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor from September 2019 to the end of Trump’s term. “I won’t talk about any of the details of those meetings, either.”
Before joining the State Department, Destro was a law professor who specialized in religious liberty and had served as an adviser to religious organizations. He has appeared on a podcast hosted by Tony Perkins, president of the socially conservative Family Research Council.
Oltmann and DePerno did not respond to questions about the meeting.
As part of his candidacy to become Michigan’s top law enforcement officer, DePerno described the meeting on a questionnaire from a pro-Trump interest group. “On January 6, 2021, I was in the State Department briefing Mike Pompeo’s staff on how the election was stolen,” DePerno wrote. He added in parenthesis: “NOTE to reader: don’t tell the Feds!"
In various podcasts and on social media, Oltmann has also described the meeting, suggesting he had a series of high-level meetings with officials at the State Department and asserting that they were impressed by information he presented that he claimed proved the election was stolen. He has been coy about naming the officials.
“I was actually in the State Department meeting with leadership,” he said in one podcast appearance on Jan. 11, 2021. He said he had not “been cleared” to name the officials with whom he met but added: “I met with leadership at every level. Every level. Bar none.”
Oltmann also described being taken to a secure area of the building that was “cherry wood lined” with “pictures of past presidents and people who have served.” The description appears to match the area of the State Department’s seventh floor known as Mahogany Row, where the offices of the secretary and his top aides are located. The assistant secretary position then-held by Destro does not typically have an office on Mahogany Row.
In a social media post, Oltmann wrote that he had met with “the right people” at the State Department, and, in another podcast appearance, he described how department officials reacted with shock to the information he shared.
“They said, ‘If this is true, this is a coup,’ ” Oltmann recounted. “I said, ‘Well, that’s exactly, that’s what I would call it.’ ”
A spokesman for then-Secretary of State Mike Pompeo declined to comment about the meeting, including whether the secretary attended the session or had been aware of it. Pompeo’s public schedule indicates that he was attending meetings in Washington that day.
Pompeo in November 2020: 'There will be a smooth transition to a second Trump administration'
Then-Secretary of State Mike Pompeo was asked at a Nov. 10, 2020, news conference if the State Department would engage with the Biden transition team. (Video: Reuters)
A Trump loyalist, Pompeo expressed sympathy for the then-president’s refusal to concede the election before Jan. 6. Asked by reporters a week after the election whether the department was engaging in a “smooth transition” to Joe Biden’s administration, Pompeo responded that there would be “a smooth transition to a second Trump administration, all right” — a remark that some of his aides later characterized as a joke.
Pompeo clings to Trump’s legacy with an eye toward inheriting the MAGA base
But Pompeo was also one of the first Trump Cabinet members to forcefully denounce the Jan. 6 attack, tweeting at 6:16 that evening that the storming of the Capitol had been “unacceptable.”
The House committee investigating the Jan. 6 attack has expressed interest in the origin and weaponization of false claims that elections machines were hacked.
Trump’s outside supporters sought out potential allies across the government, including officials whose normal portfolios did not include elections. At the Justice Department, for instance, Trump allies worked closely with a mid-level official named Jeffrey Bossert Clark who was otherwise responsible for environmental civil litigation. Clark has said his communications were lawful.
The State Department’s designated point person on a White House deputies group that dealt with the possibility of foreign interference in the 2020 election was then-Deputy Secretary of State Steve Biegun.
In an interview, Biegun said that by Jan. 6, top government officials were convinced that theories such as those circulated by Oltmann and DePerno that held that foreign forces had hacked voting machines were “just complete and utter nonsense.”
“The information that has been at least disclosed by advocates of this theory has absolutely zero correlation with anything that was available to senior government officials, who had access to every bit of information within the United States government,” Biegun said.
Biegun said that, because of the coronavirus pandemic and street closures in Washington as a result of the events at the Capitol, he was one of the few employees working at the State Department on Jan. 6. He said he was not aware of Oltmann and DePerno’s meeting.
Virginia Bennett, a former career Foreign Service officer who was Destro’s predecessor as acting assistant secretary at the start of the Trump administration, said the job generally involves meeting with foreigners, as well as American activists involved in human rights advocacy overseas. But, she said, it would be atypical for the assistant secretary to hold meetings about U.S. elections.
