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#1000pages FSU Third Natty (Women’s Soccer 2021 & 2023, and Cheerleading 2023 achieved)

so we’re not stuck with Norvell .


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Whoa, tap the brakes, I have not seen any of your posts. Can you elaborate on getting duped? I’ll I’ve seen is some of what Tribe has posted and nothing of substance from 128 or any of the other insiders that were saying Stoops. I backtrack on saying the guy is a nobody. His resume is and press conference was impressive. I am cautiously optimistic for the moment.

Now that we've hired Norvell I'll summarize it by saying I think the guy has a very high ceiling, my only concern is where the floor would be. When you look at literally every other candidate that was serious other than Bob Stoops who had 17 years of success at the highest level (PJ Fleck, Matt Campbell, Brian Kelly and James Franklin) they all had two things in common:

1) Success turning around programs at or near their bottom (Fleck took over after a successful season by record (9-4) but a terrible football culture where 10 players were accused of sexual assault with the coach over looking it; Franklin took over Ped State after the scandal that should have resulted in cancellation of all football operations; Brian Kelly took over Notre Dame after Charlie Weiss had "led them" to 3-9, 7-6 and 6-6 seasons; and Matt Campbell took over a team that went 3-9, 2-10 and 3-9 before he got there).

And 2) Sustained success at multiple stops (Campbell took Toledo to back to back division championships prior to turning around Iowa State, Franklin took Vandy to three straight bowl games when Vandy had never previously had even two consecutive bowl seasons, Kelly took both Central Michigan and Cincinatti to conference titles before taking over the mess Weiss left behind and Fleck took Western Michigan to its first season ever where it ended up ranked in the top 25.

So knowing all that you can see why FSU (and I) favoured the other nonBob candidates. Norvell is considered one of the better offensive minds out there and is definitely the hottest young coach which is why we were interested in him over someone like Fickell at Cincy. BUT....Norvell doesn't have a track record of turning around a program. Memphis had already been turned around by Fuentes, Norvell just maintained and then slightly improved Fuentes success. And Norvell hasn't exceeded expectations at multiple stops, just the one.

So while I like everything I've read or heard about Norvell (other than the alleged gambling and prostitution problems that kept him from getting a better job last year) and I definitely liked his introductory press conference, he would not be my top pick because of the lack of proven success at multiple spots.

To the positive I will say that I didn't think Brian Kelly or James Franklin had the capacity to bring us to the title, I think they would have maxed out at 10 or 11 win seasons and just missing the playoffs. And I wasn't sure Bob had the energy to get back either. So I do think only Campbell, Fleck and Norvell have the ceiling FSU fans really want...the capacity to win it all (if Franklin or Kelly could do it, they could do it where they are currently....and haven't). But I am afraid his floor is around the same as Taggart's. His teams have shown great offensive and special team improvement but on defense and in penalties his teams have not. And our undisciplined team NEEDS some discipline immediately.
 
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After more research, seeing reactions and talking to people, I am cautiously optimistic about this hire. Great to see he showed up for the basketball game given all he has going on.

My understanding is that he had a team meeting with his Memphis team early this morning before flying to Tallahassee. Many coaches leaving don't give the players that respect.

He might not have been first choice, but welcome Coach. Now get to work. And you damn sure better keep and listen to Odell.
 
I don’t think they were completely lied to as in it was made up in whole cloth. I was told by people who had a feedback on the contract that the admin had apparently negotiated his details and presented him a contract. And it’s important to note, just because you agree to meet the other parties terms doesn’t mean that they will sign it and make it actionable. I do think that people aware that we were very far along in the contracting negotiations must have told the boosters it’s done and exaggerated or misunderstood that a contract being drawn up and meeting the other parties expectations doesn’t mean the negotiation is over. It is not an entirely infrequent tactic in these types of high-level brinkmanship to have one party commit to something on paper and then push for more afterwards. Especially when time is on one side but not the other like FSU and Bob. We felt the crush of time, while Bob is probably happy dipping his toes back into coaching as if wants it there will always be another opening next year and maybe one that’s more stable in the admin like Texas, Michigan, Texas A&M, etc...

So I don’t think they were lied to especially at the decisionmaking booster levels, I just assume whoever told them didn’t fully understand or they didn’t fully understand what happens. Who knows about just the ordinary Legacy and Platinum Golden Chief levels that hang out by the statue, they’re not high enough to be decisionmakers but are probably high enough the Booster org likes to keep them informed. And at the level, they probably are just talking to some midlevel admin making $40-60k who 1) really has no clue what is going on or what high level negotiations are like and 2) his/her job is to keep the midlevel to high but nondecisionmaking boosters happy and their incentive would be to exaggerate or even outright lie.

One back story posted on warchant I was told is: they never offered Stoops. They had one call with his agent and he wanted 10 mill a yr for 5yrs. FSU didn't want to pay that, so moved on. There main offer was to Franklin. He also wanted too much money. Cammpbell's buy out was too much combined with Iowa State had in his contract the option to match any offer. They interviewed Norvel & were blown away with him in interview.
 
At least that’s what Sexton wanted you to believe. A lot of USF people I know were happy to get rid of him at the time. Now they are hoping to get him cheap and get back to being mediocre.
The Athletic Director did that, and he wanted to keep him. Frankly, even if he didn’t want to keep him, you have to fight to keep him or you look stupid. However, there were a number of long time Oregon people who were happy to see him go.
Meh there are always people at every school who say they ate happy to see the coach go. Have a friend that was doing irrigation work at USF athletic fields that said some of the employees he was working with were glad to see him go and USF would never hire him back even if they got rid of Strong who they also didn't like. I laughed and said sounds like sour grapes and I wouldn't be surprised if Willie is right back there.
 
One back story posted on warchant I was told is: they never offered Stoops. They had one call with his agent and he wanted 10 mill a yr for 5yrs. FSU didn't want to pay that, so moved on. There main offer was to Franklin. He also wanted too much money. Cammpbell's buy out was too much combined with Iowa State had in his contract the option to match any offer. They interviewed Norvel & were blown away with him in interview.

This makes sense kind of. What doesn't make sense is a whole lot of people saying Stoops was a done deal and that they offered Franklin. First Thrasher said they only offered Norvell and if what we're hearing about the racist boosters is true, no way they offered Franklin. No way. And honestly, why would he come to FSU? His path isn't any easier at FSU (Clemson/Ohio St) and he's done all the hard work at Ped St, plus he's from up there I believe. Nothing adds up. Goldie said she/they got duped and I believe they did. I would like to hear the story one day though...
 
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This makes sense kind of. What doesn't make sense is a whole lot of people saying Stoops was a done deal and that they offered Franklin. First Thrasher said they only offered Norvell and if what we're hearing about the racist boosters is true, no way they offered Franklin. No way. And honestly, why would he come to FSU? His path isn't any easier at FSU (Clemson/Ohio St) and he's done all the hard work at Ped St, plus he's from up there I believe. Nothing adds up. Goldie said she/they got duped and I believe they did. I would like to hear the story one day though...

Are you talking about the racist booster thing being floated by the Gator trolls? If so, do you really think someone would have video of a high profile booster using racial slurs and using that video to force them out of the boosters, word of it leaking all over the internet, and then the video not somehow being released?
 
Are you talking about the racist booster thing being floated by the Gator trolls? If so, do you really think someone would have video of a high profile booster using racial slurs and using that video to force them out of the boosters, word of it leaking all over the internet, and then the video not somehow being released?
No, about getting duped...
 
No, about getting duped...

I definitely think there was a major dupe. It had to either be an intentional smoke screen or, perhaps with Coburn's inexperience with these things he legitimately thought he could land Stoops. But considering the comp differences, Stoops and Franklin had to be a quick decision to move on.
 
This makes sense kind of. What doesn't make sense is a whole lot of people saying Stoops was a done deal and that they offered Franklin. First Thrasher said they only offered Norvell and if what we're hearing about the racist boosters is true, no way they offered Franklin. No way. And honestly, why would he come to FSU? His path isn't any easier at FSU (Clemson/Ohio St) and he's done all the hard work at Ped St, plus he's from up there I believe. Nothing adds up. Goldie said she/they got duped and I believe they did. I would like to hear the story one day though...
The racist boosters thing is stupid to think they have that much pull and would go in to Thrasher and Coburn and say that is the reason and use racist language like that. I am not tightly connected to any sources, but FFS we had Wilcox and Willie T and still have Hamilton. Were these douche bags not boosters then and if they were did they have no pull then, yet they somehow do now? I am not saying we don't have racist boosters, but those boosters don't have as much pull as they think for coaching selection hire. And certainly wouldn't be making their case for very long if they made the argument based on race to Thrasher or Coburn. Now they may have a legitimate argument not based on race even though their real motive may be race, but I seriously doubt they are stupid enough to come at Thrasher using race and n word as their argument against Odell or anyone else.

I do think there were some people intentionally misled which would help an administration find out who the leakers are and know who not to trust with info in the future. But in the end it doesn't matter. We got Norvell and I hope he wins and wins and wins some more. We shall see.
 
Can we please take care of the looming clouds that are the future openings of the AD and president positions at FSU (sooner rather than later)?

also, any expectation in timeline for Norvell to bring on his staff?
 
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I'm satisfied with it. As far as Stoops, Franklin or Kelly, I'm glad FSU marshaled the balls and the money to talk to them, but those were total long shots/pipe dreams. Coaches just don't leave A or A+ programs for other A programs. Really, the only examples are both Texas A&M, with Jimbo and Dennis Franchione. Both of those had the key ingredient of the coach/admin relationship being utterly soured. To my knowledge, that wasn't the case of Franklin or Kelly, so it was never going to happen.

I'm not going to lie, I liked the statement that hiring one of those guys would be more than I liked those guys. Listen, if you can get them, you have to, I get it. But I find both Franklin and Kelly very tough to like, and I'm very dubious of Stoops being all in. I'm not saying I'm glad we didn't get them, because if you can make that kind of splash and hire that kind of proven record, you do it. But yeah, part of me is glad.

Maybe I'll put it this way, I don't really think hiring Norvell is better over those three, but IF we get back to the top level of college football, I'm going to enjoy doing it with Norvell a hell of a lot more.

Now Campbell was realistic, and there are plenty of reasons to hire Campbell ahead of Norvell if you can. To me, if FSU had a miss, this was it. But also, it's not a bad miss. It's not an FSU vs Iowa State thing, it's an FSU vs. every job Campbell might potentially be in line for in future years (plus Iowa State). The guy is going to be a candidate for Michigan State, Michigan, Notre Dame, and probably the NFL if and when those jobs open.

That said I don't think anything about Campbell makes him THAT much more of a sure thing than Norvell. There were plenty of questions...no southern connections, reported trepidation/resistance to southern recruiting, and the fact that he's got no experience with a big time program other than Iowa State. To me, if Cambell is a B+ candidate, Norvell is a B.

I think the search was fine, and the outcome is fine.
 
So I am hearing it is an incentive laden 6-year contract with only a 3.7 million salary, 1.3 million less than WT. Low buyout too! That makes me happy. More money for great staff. He is already impressing me hitting recruiting trail hard. Look forward to seeing what staff he puts together...we can then compare it to WT's first staff...

If you really want to do something to compare and have time, watch these back to back.




 
This makes sense kind of. What doesn't make sense is a whole lot of people saying Stoops was a done deal and that they offered Franklin. First Thrasher said they only offered Norvell and if what we're hearing about the racist boosters is true, no way they offered Franklin. No way. And honestly, why would he come to FSU? His path isn't any easier at FSU (Clemson/Ohio St) and he's done all the hard work at Ped St, plus he's from up there I believe. Nothing adds up. Goldie said she/they got duped and I believe they did. I would like to hear the story one day though...

I listened to the introductory press conference and Thrasher distinctly emphasized the “I” only offered one person the job. Since the initial contacts and negotiations were allegedly held by the search firm it’s probably just weasel words from procedures set in place so that we didn’t look like Tennessee. So Coburn, Sugiyama or more likely an even lower level attorney was doing the initial offers and Thrasher only “officially” offered once it was basically accepted.

The only thing that gives me pause about saying they were organized enough to have the above built in CYA is they weren’t apparently organized enough to contact the players and current staff first before officially announcing it.
 
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So I am hearing it is an incentive laden 6-year contract with only a 3.7 million salary, 1.3 million less than WT. Low buyout too! That makes me happy. More money for great staff. He is already impressing me hitting recruiting trail hard. Look forward to seeing what staff he puts together...we can then compare it to WT's first staff...

If you really want to do something to compare and have time, watch these back to back.




So I am hearing it is an incentive laden 6-year contract with only a 3.7 million salary, 1.3 million less than WT. Low buyout too! That makes me happy. More money for great staff. He is already impressing me hitting recruiting trail hard. Look forward to seeing what staff he puts together...we can then compare it to WT's first staff...

If you really want to do something to compare and have time, watch these back to back.





Some random guy on twitter said that (3.7 mil) and local podcasters ran with it even though the contract hasn’t been revealed yet. And if it’s run through the newly privatized boosters org, I guess they won’t have to comply with Sunshine laws and actually show it.
 
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So I am hearing it is an incentive laden 6-year contract with only a 3.7 million salary, 1.3 million less than WT. Low buyout too! That makes me happy. More money for great staff. He is already impressing me hitting recruiting trail hard. Look forward to seeing what staff he puts together...we can then compare it to WT's first staff...

If you really want to do something to compare and have time, watch these back to back.

WT never recovered from a pretty terrible first staff. Some of that is on FSU I'm sure, not being willing to pony up some money, but it really was a pretty big bust. I know WT was counting on some guys that he didn't end up being able to get, but you have to be able to identify and evaluate coaches you don't know too.

So yeah, I'm definitely watching the staff Norvell puts together carefully, and how he does it. I'm not placing unrealistic expectations on this recruiting class given 10 days to work, but I want to see him put together a good staff, and not one marked by whiff after whiff trying to hire people, and then just settling on friends and acquaintances. And yes, I'm counting on FSU's money folks to do their part this time too.

As for the press conferences, it's definitely true that WT won the press conference as well. But there isn't much comparison between the two, both in the passion, and in the specifics.

Unfortunately, WT won the press conference because he told us what we all wanted to believe...which is that there was no rebuild, the guys here were already great, Florida State is the best, that all we had to do was go faster, etc. It wasn't because he was inspiring, or compelling, its because he stroked what we wanted to believe.

I'm not totally trashing WT, he said some things I really liked and still do, but as soon as you saw the product you could realize his press conference was (like almost everything) was a wildly missed evaluation. I suppose the same thing could happen with Norvell, but in terms of tone or content, they weren't similar at all, other than the positive response.
 
I'm satisfied with it. As far as Stoops, Franklin or Kelly, I'm glad FSU marshaled the balls and the money to talk to them, but those were total long shots/pipe dreams. Coaches just don't leave A or A+ programs for other A programs. Really, the only examples are both Texas A&M, with Jimbo and Dennis Franchione. Both of those had the key ingredient of the coach/admin relationship being utterly soured. To my knowledge, that wasn't the case of Franklin or Kelly, so it was never going to happen.

I'm not going to lie, I liked the statement that hiring one of those guys would be more than I liked those guys. Listen, if you can get them, you have to, I get it. But I find both Franklin and Kelly very tough to like, and I'm very dubious of Stoops being all in. I'm not saying I'm glad we didn't get them, because if you can make that kind of splash and hire that kind of proven record, you do it. But yeah, part of me is glad.

Maybe I'll put it this way, I don't really think hiring Norvell is better over those three, but IF we get back to the top level of college football, I'm going to enjoy doing it with Norvell a hell of a lot more.

Now Campbell was realistic, and there are plenty of reasons to hire Campbell ahead of Norvell if you can. To me, if FSU had a miss, this was it. But also, it's not a bad miss. It's not an FSU vs Iowa State thing, it's an FSU vs. every job Campbell might potentially be in line for in future years (plus Iowa State). The guy is going to be a candidate for Michigan State, Michigan, Notre Dame, and probably the NFL if and when those jobs open.

That said I don't think anything about Campbell makes him THAT much more of a sure thing than Norvell. There were plenty of questions...no southern connections, reported trepidation/resistance to southern recruiting, and the fact that he's got no experience with a big time program other than Iowa State. To me, if Cambell is a B+ candidate, Norvell is a B.

I think the search was fine, and the outcome is fine.

Fleck, Rhule and Campbell were probably the safest choices. It could be a little bit of sour grapes on my part, but I don’t consider Bob to be a truly safe choice because of how long he was out of coaching and whether he was actually committed to it. Franklin and Kelly I always considered to have the highest floor but I never thought their ceiling would get us to FSU expectations (ie a fourth MNC). I do think Norvell CAN get us to an MNC as well as I’m really happy about his offensive coaching acumen, drive, charisma and emphasis on special teams. It’s just with the lack of penalty discipline on his teams (apparently they are disciplined when it comes to grades and staying out of trouble, just not when it comes to penalty) and relatively poor defensive showing.

Hopefully, whoever the DC is can cover up these shortcomings. Because I think we walked into a Dabo type of situation. Good (but not elite) level offensive mind, but a leader people can get behind. But remember, Dabo had four years of subpar to just mediocre results until he paired up with Brent Venables in 2012 (without Venables, Dabo went 7-6, 9-5, 6-7, and 10-4). Then with Venables they’ve gone 11-2, 11-2, 10-3, 14-1, 14-1, 12-2, 15-0 and are 13-0 now.
 
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WT never recovered from a pretty terrible first staff. Some of that is on FSU I'm sure, not being willing to pony up some money, but it really was a pretty big bust. I know WT was counting on some guys that he didn't end up being able to get, but you have to be able to identify and evaluate coaches you don't know too.

So yeah, I'm definitely watching the staff Norvell puts together carefully, and how he does it. I'm not placing unrealistic expectations on this recruiting class given 10 days to work, but I want to see him put together a good staff, and not one marked by whiff after whiff trying to hire people, and then just settling on friends and acquaintances. And yes, I'm counting on FSU's money folks to do their part this time too.

As for the press conferences, it's definitely true that WT won the press conference as well. But there isn't much comparison between the two, both in the passion, and in the specifics.

Unfortunately, WT won the press conference because he told us what we all wanted to believe...which is that there was no rebuild, the guys here were already great, Florida State is the best, that all we had to do was go faster, etc. It wasn't because he was inspiring, or compelling, its because he stroked what we wanted to believe.

I'm not totally trashing WT, he said some things I really liked and still do, but as soon as you saw the product you could realize his press conference was (like almost everything) was a wildly missed evaluation. I suppose the same thing could happen with Norvell, but in terms of tone or content, they weren't similar at all, other than the positive response.

Good post. My point of view is that Willie's biggest mistake was not getting the OL issues addressed day one. Anyone who claimed to be a fan would of have to have know what bad shape the OL was in. For him not to fill the roster up that first cycle with portal transfers, grad transfers and JUCO was telling imo...
 
Good post. My point of view is that Willie's biggest mistake was not getting the OL issues addressed day one. Anyone who claimed to be a fan would of have to have know what bad shape the OL was in. For him not to fill the roster up that first cycle with portal transfers, grad transfers and JUCO was telling imo...

I think he tried, he just utterly failed. Think about the QB recruits we ALMOST landed, Lance Legendre, John Rhys Plumlee, Sam Howell, Jayden Daniels, Emory Jones, Justin Fields, Michael Penix and James Foster. If Willie had landed just ONE from that list over the two year period (and we finished top 2 or 3 for all), he most likely wouldn’t have been fired.

Jayden Daniels completed 62.3% of his passes for 8.9 adjusted yards per attempt and a QBR of 153.5 at Arizona State as a redshirt freshman.

Penix completed 68.8% of his passes for 8.8 adjusted yards per attempt and a 157.8 QBR at Indiana as a true sophomore.

Sam Howell as a true freshman completed 60.3% of his passes but at an excellent 9.6 adjusted yards per attempt for a 158.9 QBR at North Carolina.

Emory Jones as a true sophmore at Florida is completing 68.5% of his passes for a 9.1 adjusted yards per attempt for a 160.1 QBR.

And Justin Fields as a sophmore is averaging 67.3% of his passes for a stunning 12.0 adjusted yards per attempt and a 190.3 QBR at Ohio State.

Meanwhile Blackman as a third year starter is still at 63.9% for 7.8 adjusted yards per attempt and a 142.7 QBR.

Lance Legendre at Maryland, Taisun Phommachanh at Clemson, James Foster at aTm and John Rhys Plumlee at Ole Miss are still works in progress who haven’t played substantially enough to judge. But I doubt they’d be any worse than Blackman was in year three.

And I realize some people on here aren’t up on what the statistics mean, but just a single measly yard advantage on the adjusted yards per play means that the team with the advantage wins 86.7% of the time. Bump it to 2 yards and the team with the advantage wins 95% of the time. So needless to say with Justin Fields....you’re not losing very many games and knowing nothing else about the team other than it’s quartbacked by Blackman or one of the quarterbacks we missed on in recruiting the last two years other than Fields that has enough stats to judge....we’re losing four out of five of the head to head matches against anyone else on that list.
 
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Good post. My point of view is that Willie's biggest mistake was not getting the OL issues addressed day one. Anyone who claimed to be a fan would of have to have know what bad shape the OL was in. For him not to fill the roster up that first cycle with portal transfers, grad transfers and JUCO was telling imo...

Yep, Willie's biggest and fatal flaw in the macro was being a very poor evaluator. Of everything...of the current roster, or staff, of where we stood with recruits, of his own abilities and readiness for the job. Over and over again, he just badly missed reading the situation.

In the micro, I think he was done in by bad staff, and poor recruiting. The other shortcomings probably would have caught up to him eventually, but he also might have had time to adjust like he did other places. But his time was cut as short as it was because his staff just didn't get his teams prepared and improved, and because his recruiting didn't show enough hope for the future. You can't whiff as badly on the OL and at QB as he did and still claim to be a great recruiter.

I was a big Willie guy...I wanted him to succeed very much, but there was just nothing to grasp onto.

It didn't help that as far as personality goes, he's kind of a wet fish. He was a likable guy, but he wasn't a compelling guy. I went out to a crowded booster stop when he was hired...he was late arriving, the place was packed and amped...and he just wasn't able to feed that. Just a dull guy in that environment. It was hard to feel very engaged by the guy.

And it was hard to square the idea of how good a recruiter he was supposed to be with the lack of personal magnetism. I'm not saying his personality was repellent, but a lot of us, knowing his background, was expecting a charismatic guy, which he wasn't. Ultimately, that didn't affect whether he was going to succeed or not, but it might have cost him more time.

That's a big difference with Norvell. If Norvell struggles in the first couple years as well and gets more time, a lot of ink is going to be spent on their difference in pigmentation. But the real difference is likely to be personal charisma, along with his ability to articulate an actual plan and approach from day one.
 
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I think he tried, he just utterly failed. Think about the QB recruits we ALMOST landed, Lance Legendre, John Rhys Plumlee, Sam Howell, Jayden Daniels, Emory Jones, Justin Fields, Michael Penix and James Foster. If Willie had landed just ONE from that list over the two year period (and we finished top 2 or 3 for all), he most likely wouldn’t have been fired.

Jayden Daniels completed 62.3% of his passes for 8.9 adjusted yards per attempt and a QBR of 153.5 at Arizona State as a redshirt freshman.

Penix completed 68.8% of his passes for 8.8 adjusted yards per attempt and a 157.8 QBR at Indiana as a true sophomore.

Sam Howell as a true freshman completed 60.3% of his passes but at an excellent 9.6 adjusted yards per attempt for a 158.9 QBR at North Carolina.

Emory Jones as a true sophmore at Florida is completing 68.5% of his passes for a 9.1 adjusted yards per attempt for a 160.1 QBR.

And Justin Fields as a sophmore is averaging 67.3% of his passes for a stunning 12.0 adjusted yards per attempt and a 190.3 QBR at Ohio State.

Meanwhile Blackman as a third year starter is still at 63.9% for 7.8 adjusted yards per attempt and a 142.7 QBR.

Lance Legendre at Maryland, Taisun Phommachanh at Clemson, James Foster at aTm and John Rhys Plumlee at Ole Miss are still works in progress who haven’t played substantially enough to judge. But I doubt they’d be any worse than Blackman was in year three.

And I realize some people on here aren’t up on what the statistics mean, but just a single measly yard advantage on the adjusted yards per play means that the team with the advantage wins 86.7% of the time. Bump it to 2 yards and the team with the advantage wins 95% of the time. So needless to say with Justin Fields....you’re not losing very many games and knowing nothing else about the team other than it’s quartbacked by Blackman or one of the quarterbacks we missed on in recruiting the last two years other than Fields that has enough stats to judge....we’re losing four out of five of the head to head matches against anyone else on that list.

Those would have all been good gets but we were talented enough at QB imo. And I think all of those guys would have struggled too as they would have been under duress like our guys were. Build the lines first, OL and DL, then worry about the skill players. We had enough skill players on both sides of the ball, but the OL didn't give our QB eough time and the DL gave their QB too much time. That was the diff. The stats feed off of those...
 
Those would have all been good gets but we were talented enough at QB imo. And I think all of those guys would have struggled too as they would have been under duress like our guys were. Build the lines first, OL and DL, then worry about the skill players. We had enough skill players on both sides of the ball, but the OL didn't give our QB eough time and the DL gave their QB too much time. That was the diff. The stats feed off of those...

Penix and Daniels you’re probably right as our terrible OLine probably does count for a loss of a yard per play on average. But Jones, Howell and Fields were miles better than Blackman. Not even in the same planet really. We would have definitely beaten Wake and Boise with any of them and probably wouldn’t have gotten blown out by Miami. Do that and Taggart’s back for year three.
 
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Penix and Daniels you’re probably right as our terrible OLine probably does count for a loss of a yard per play on average. But Jones, Howell and Fields were miles better than Blackman. Not even in the same planet really. We would have definitely beaten Wake and Boise with any of them and probably wouldn’t have gotten blown out by Miami. Do that and Taggart’s back for year three.

You're not wrong at all...but I'd go farther to say that if FSU had the exact same record, but had Sam Howell throwing behind 5 Fr/So blue chip OL, WT would still be the coach.

I get the first abbreviated recruiting class and everything, but when you're still rolling out Blackman, behind guys like Bello and Williams...that's simply hopeless. There's still underachieving Jimbo remnants all over the field while we struggle toward .500.

I mean, if you can't recruit over these guys with playing time to sell, what hope is there? I'm glad Darius Washington is showing some signs of being a player, and Lucas is a good get, but with all the playing time to sell, you can't have fans sitting there hoping that maybe 2020 3-star recruits will develop into credible OLs by 2022. Not acceptable.

An OL rebuild isn't an overnight thing, but even if it's a 3-4 year timeline, the problem is in two years of WT, it feels like that clock hasn't even started.
 
Boselli really came on late then got hurt. Lucas had some really bright moments. Washington had a few as well, before he got hurt. I don't think this OL is completely hopeless, with the right scheme and coach.
 
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Boselli really came on late then got hurt. Lucas had some really bright moments. Washington had a few as well, before he got hurt. I don't think this OL is completely hopeless, with the right scheme and coach.

Boselli is another leftover, but I think he played as well as expected. Washington seems promising. If Norvell and co. can do what WT couldn't, and bring in some game ready juco/transfers, we could see some progress hopefully.
 
I assume Cam is gone. What about Lambo?

I’ve never definitively heard what “personal matter”/"violation of team rules" caused him to miss the last game. Lots of rumors but nothing said by someone I trusted. Obviously unless it's something major, Norvell's first real "recruit" should be Khalan to make sure he doesn't go in the transfer portal and leave us basically dry in the RB room.
 
To be fair to WT, while his first staff was pretty bad, I think that was in part a factor of the bizarre way he came into the job.

Most coaches taking jobs have been mentally and behind the scenes been preparing for the moment for years. Norvell for sure...what I think you'll see is a much more sure handed staff build, because it's not like Norvell hasn't been preparing for this move for years, keeping tabs on his coaching tree and prospective hires. Guys like Herman, Frost, etc...they've been working toward these moments for years, and you best believe they know very well who they want, who they want if they can't get that person, who's most likely to say yes, etc.

Willie wasn't prepared for that, and that's very unusual. He just dropped into the job. When Oregon ponied up the cash to retain everyone worth having on that staff, WT was really out to sea. That story of him hiring David Kelly as WR coach basically because he couldn't land anyone else...that was telling.

I'm thinking that FSU should have spent a lot more time considering that before they hired him, and WT should have thought about that challenge before accepting.
 
I’ve never definitively heard what “personal matter” caused him to miss the last game. Lots of rumors but nothing said by someone I trusted. Obviously unless it's something major, Norvell's first real "recruit" should be Khalan to make sure he doesn't go in the transfer portal and leave us basically dry in the RB room.

If Laborn wants to come back that's great, but as a RB with an injury history, and possibly academic/personal issues...if he gets a positive draft grade, he should go for his own sake and get some money.

It would indeed leave us thin this year, but RB is the position a freshman can come in and play most readily, and can be solved in one recruiting class in 2021.

If Laborn is going to be a culture issue, and might cost himself money, I say go and get paid young man. If he's totally straight and on board, and can significantly increase his draft potential, ok, but at this point from a culture perspective, it might be time for any remaining Jimbo holdovers to move on. WT wasn't able to flip the culture much retaining the same guys.
 
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If Laborn wants to come back that's great, but as a RB with an injury history, and possibly academic/personal issues...if he gets a positive draft grade, he should go for his own sake and get some money.

It would indeed leave us thin this year, but RB is the position a freshman can come in and play most readily, and can be solved in one recruiting class in 2021.

If Laborn is going to be a culture issue, and might cost himself money, I say go and get paid young man. If he's totally straight and on board, and can significantly increase his draft potential, ok, but at this point from a culture perspective, it might be time for any remaining Jimbo holdovers to move on. WT wasn't able to flip the culture much retaining the same guys.

If Laborn leaves, we won't have any scholarship RB other than whoever we sign in this recruiting class (I'm not including Grant since he disappeared this season - I don't think he dressed the last few games).
 
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