SIAP: Video of 1,400 employees being told their jobs are being relocated
- Thread starter fredjr82
- Start date
Any and all tax cuts companies like this should be ended and the products they produce outside of the country should have a 35% tax placed on them if they want to sell them in the country.
Tough news for that facility and community, no doubt. I really wish those vital manufacturing jobs were not being deployed to another country, but I also know very well the behind the scenes financial details that lead to these types of decisions. I really feel for those people, I have actually been involved in similar announcements in the past, although on a smaller scale. It really, really stinks.
It is very easy to cast blame on the people that made the "business decision" and/or to blame it on poor management, etc. But the reality is that there are many factors that go into a decision like this and it is very, very "surfacy" just to get mad at management and/or to "blame the boss". I don't have any details related to this plant closing, but it is decisions and announcements precisely like this one that make me very, very wary of increasing the minimum wage here in the US.
Yes, I realize that as a union plant it is likely that no one in that plant was making minimum wage, BUT...when we raise the "floor" via a governmental intervention we may very well lead to unintended consequences and many more decisions like this one.
It is very easy to cast blame on the people that made the "business decision" and/or to blame it on poor management, etc. But the reality is that there are many factors that go into a decision like this and it is very, very "surfacy" just to get mad at management and/or to "blame the boss". I don't have any details related to this plant closing, but it is decisions and announcements precisely like this one that make me very, very wary of increasing the minimum wage here in the US.
Yes, I realize that as a union plant it is likely that no one in that plant was making minimum wage, BUT...when we raise the "floor" via a governmental intervention we may very well lead to unintended consequences and many more decisions like this one.
You think in the last 35 years, that the Obama presidency years are the worst years of this trend? You are even dumber than I thought.
They handled that a lot better than I thought they would considering the guy was being a smug douche.
Again, what is "new" about this? It's been happening for 35 years.
Kind of hard to out-negotiate Mexican labor prices. Time for NAFTA to die.
I would bet you a shiny nickel that pay cuts were not part of the proposed concessions by the union.
This has very little to do w/ 'minimum wage' jobs, and much more to do with the 'living wage' in Monterrey, Mexico being far far lower than the 'living wage' in Indiana, USA. The housing market (even for cheap houses) has the biggest impact vs what housing and land costs in other countries.
Minimum wage jobs today are very unlikely to go 'overseas', and much more likely to be replaced by machines/robots.
Who the hell makes an announcement like that in front of an angry mob of factory workers? Don't these people have email???
Unfortunately, one of the tactics the US could be undertaking to combat this type of manufacturing job loss is to:
A) Convert much more of our grid to clean energy and/or low emissions natural gas.
B) Champion a significant 'carbon tax' on energy/oil worldwide.
Places that have cheap labor bases more than likely also utilize cheap and dirty coal for power; the minute a significant carbon tax is imposed on those resources, that power price will increase, as will the transportation costs to ship these products back into the US. In fact, if a carbon tax tacks on a trade tax for countries out of compliance for any imported product, then things made off of a greener grid in the US get cheaper much faster.
Neither of our parties seems to want to work toward this type of comprehensive resolution, though...
A) Convert much more of our grid to clean energy and/or low emissions natural gas.
B) Champion a significant 'carbon tax' on energy/oil worldwide.
Places that have cheap labor bases more than likely also utilize cheap and dirty coal for power; the minute a significant carbon tax is imposed on those resources, that power price will increase, as will the transportation costs to ship these products back into the US. In fact, if a carbon tax tacks on a trade tax for countries out of compliance for any imported product, then things made off of a greener grid in the US get cheaper much faster.
Neither of our parties seems to want to work toward this type of comprehensive resolution, though...
On a related note....glad I bought my Carrier Infinity series HVAC systems BEFORE this announcement came out....I have a feeling that the QA on the products out of this facility over the next 3 years is going to plummet...
This is what our president should have tackled when he had both houses of Congress. Cap and trade was much more important than Obamacare. But I digress....
I already addressed that. I realize that these jobs are not likely to be minimum wage, but my point is that if we increase our minimum wage here it is then likely that all non-minimum wage jobs here will also have a corresponding bump up and the disparity between the US and lower wage countries will be even more stark...leading eventually to even more jobs lost as companies move to cheaper labor markets. Many proponents of an increased minimum wage seem to think that it will magically solve problems...without realizing that a forced bump will then lead to other corresponding changes in terms of higher prices and still higher wages at non-minimum wage jobs and pretty soon...we're right back to where we started...except that we will have unwittingly made ourselves even less competitive in the world, leading to more decisions to move labor intensive jobs elsewhere.
Additionally, I worked in a US based production facility for several years where many of the jobs were eliminated as one product after another was sourced in other, low wage countries, mainly China. The average hourly wage in that plant was not far above minimum wage...so I do not agree with your statement that, "Minimum wage jobs today are very unlikely to go 'overseas'". I have personally watched it happen already.
Even our minimum wage jobs are many times better than the "competition" in many other countries in this world.
Dude, you like soccer. You don't have any chance of being considered in an intelligence debate while living in the US. You are the epitome of what is wrong with this country. The next logical thought you share will be your first so leave your personal comments at home and come back when you are mature enough to have a conversation around fact.
I suspect you are right...I would be cautious with buying a Carrier from this point forward.
You think - GFY - is adding something to this board? That's quality psycho gibberish.
This isn't a solution at all.
One, green energy, isn't reliable enough nor cheap enough to fully implement in the US. It would raise costs here drastically to do this.
Two, good luck on getting China (or others) agreeing to a worldwide carbon tax. Their agreement right now for carbon reduction is a joke. There's no way their going to agree to something that would greatly damage their economy.
I don't think a vast vast majority of people have any idea of how damaging to US manufacturing a $15 min wage hike would be. They'd likely have to absorb at-least a 20% increase in labor (not to mention the escalating costs associated with benefits/healthcare) while having virtually no wiggle room on price since their foreign made competition will see none of the labor hike. Occurrences like this video would end up being a daily thing if that happens.
Oh that is nuts, then we pay for $7 hamburgers....or the employer just lays off half his workers. Duh!
I don't have any data, but I'd be surprised if more minimum wage jobs have been replaced by machines (computers) than white collar jobs
Edit, my only rationale is that white collar jobs pay more and there is more of an incentive to replace white collar jobs with technology than minimum wage jobs
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One: it is. We simply need to invest in it. You also missed my point about natural gas (which we have in vast abundance) is a great hedge in the meantime vs. other countries who will rely on far messier coal, which will mean their energy will be higher cost either way.
Two: China is already implementing MASSIVE resources to get off coal and implement greener sources. Their commitment is far from a joke- they will need to reduce their emissions by a FAR larger percentage than we need to.
Most of the world's economists agree that a carbon tax (with cap and trade) is the best way to accomplish CO2 reductions, and many in the West are already onboard with that idea. Getting it tied to imports and trade will only help countries like the US who are in a position to invest in green energy sooner and/or switch to natural gas quickly. And the US can likely meet much of its electricity needs with next gen wind power IF we invest in it AND in a new power grid.
FWIW, NONE of the jobs associated with the wind power or grid will be outsourced overseas, and if that effort is combined with trade tariffs for non-complying trade members, it will pull jobs from the non-complying countries to the complying ones the faster and higher you raise the CO2 tax. In other words, you cannot do one w/o the other if you want to use it as a tactic to retain jobs here.
Still waiting for the answer to my question besides "you like soccer so...".
Again, where do you think Obama ranks in private sector job growth AND loss of jobs due to outsourcing of all presidents in the last 35 years? Guess where he ranks, I dare you. Stop being intellectually lazy and running from the question. Do your homework, or just admit you're dishonest or dumb (like most of the anti-Obama lemmings). Is this too hard for you?...
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Are you familiar with Acciona? The Spanish based wind power company that has a facility in West Branch, IA? Where are most of their engineers? Hint...not in the US.
Our company is a supplier to UTC so we are now looking at losing a top 20 client as well.
That's just the trickle down effect of losing business of this size to another country.
That's just the trickle down effect of losing business of this size to another country.
Considering this thread is about MANUFACTURING jobs, and the MANUFACTURING PLANT for that company is in IOWA, I don't see your point.
What I DO see is a lack of foresight on the part of American government and business to be taking advantage of the green energy boom and setting up their own engineering/manufacturing here. If we commit to upgrading our grid and energy sources, MOST of the jobs related to that can be here. And once we become a technology leader, we can then outsource that tech to other countries as well, with OUR workers leading the charge.
As it stands, the Spanish company is developing the technology, NOT a US company. That's unfortunate.
There are a lot of reasons for that business decision.
-NAFTA
-Labor Unions
-Mexican Labor Costs vs US
-Environmental laws
-Other regulations, inspections, etc.
-Rising health care insurance costs
-Taxes
Not an easy decision, but we have been seeing it for years. It is not easy to manufacture anything in the USA, and still be competitive, when it is so much more cost effective to go elsewhere.
We are also seeing tens of thousands of jobs leaving California for Texas right now as a result of high taxes and regulations there.
How do you think Bernie would impact the US? The issues moving jobs to other states from California, and other countries from the US become overwhelming and the world economy that the US wanted becomes the breaker. Greed built this country, and greed will eventually destroy it, from the top down or from the bottom up, from the far left or the far right, either way the right answers are usually somewhere in the middle.
-NAFTA
-Labor Unions
-Mexican Labor Costs vs US
-Environmental laws
-Other regulations, inspections, etc.
-Rising health care insurance costs
-Taxes
Not an easy decision, but we have been seeing it for years. It is not easy to manufacture anything in the USA, and still be competitive, when it is so much more cost effective to go elsewhere.
We are also seeing tens of thousands of jobs leaving California for Texas right now as a result of high taxes and regulations there.
How do you think Bernie would impact the US? The issues moving jobs to other states from California, and other countries from the US become overwhelming and the world economy that the US wanted becomes the breaker. Greed built this country, and greed will eventually destroy it, from the top down or from the bottom up, from the far left or the far right, either way the right answers are usually somewhere in the middle.
Why 35% - why not 200%, why not 350%? Why not make it illegal to sell them? I think Lennox,Trane and other competitiors who have outside US mfg. would love it if you did this to Carrier. Of course Carrier could just change their name for products from Mexico and then I guess it wouldn't matter anymore.
Are you saying any company with any outside US manufacturing should have all tax laws changed for them and all deductions eliminated? - P&G, GE, GM, Dell, etc., etc.
Are you saying anything produced outside the US should have a tariff of 35% on it? Oil and gas?
I'm a little confused and think you might not have a clue as to what you are talking about or asking for.
This solution would have to be imposed on the world. India, China, and others will not agree to it. Totally unrealistic, pie-in-the-sky idea.
