So... Freedom of Movement. Is that just a long gone dusty relic of the past??

[HawkBall23]

All the "very good Defensive teams" are allowed to keep a hand on the ballhandler like its sewed to their jersey or skin, but its never called. Another 'relic of the past' is the so-called Cylinder Rule. Luka has his 'cylinder' violated just about every trip Iowa takes down the floor, but again, its never called.

What happened to these things not being allowed - or at least, not supposed to be allowed - like only a 3 or 4 seasons ago??

 

[youflog1hawk]

All the "very good Defensive teams" are allowed to keep a hand on the ballhandler like its sewed to their jersey or skin, but its never called. Another 'relic of the past' is the so-called Cylinder Rule. Luka has his 'cylinder' violated just about every trip Iowa takes down the floor, but again, its never called.

What happened to these things not being allowed - or at least, not supposed to be allowed - like only a 3 or 4 seasons ago??

Great question. It’s, I wish I was a fly on the wall when refs discuss this issue among themselves.

 

[Franisdaman]

In another example: its maddening how in the Ilini game the Illini players & bench lost their minds on the Cockburn goal tend & demanded the rules be enforced!!

The Illini, of course, wanted the refs to review the goal tending call so they Illini were all in favor of enforcing the "if under 2 minutes, goal tending is reviewable" rule. But like you said, other rules seem to not matter, depending on the team you are playing.

 

[hawkeyeinmo]

Last week the B1G network had a replay of 1983 Iowa vs Illinois. It was amazing how much different the players played defense. When they placed their hand on the player they were guarding they would quickly remove it like “hot potato” so not to be called for a foul. It was funny to watch.

 

[EpenesaEpenesa]

It’s typically called from November-December. January-February not called

 

[LaoHawk]

I think all these rules will return for March Madness games. The refs suddenly remembers to call on these rules then.

 

[pocha444444]

45 fouls in the game last night. 54 fouls in the Illinois game that followed, and OP says "I want more!"

 

[fivecardstud14]

45 fouls in the game last night. 54 fouls in the Illinois game that followed, and OP says "I want more!"

College bball fans want whistles and want them every trip down the floor!

 

[Herky T Hawk]

What I want is the players to play the game the right way with the rules as they're written. The only way to get that is if the refs enforce the rules. If the refs do that all game long for every game, then the coaches and players will adjust and we'll get back to fun basketball.

Instead of the great basketball that we had back in the 80s, we've gotten MSU and Wisconsin football on the hardwood for the past few decades.

 

[EpenesaEpenesa]

45 fouls in the game last night. 54 fouls in the Illinois game that followed, and OP says "I want more!"

I’d be fine with 80 whistles a game if that’s what it takes to clean up the grabbing/holding defensively. They tried a few years ago, then Izzo cried about it so that went out the window

 

[pocha444444]

I’d be fine with 80 whistles a game if that’s what it takes to clean up the grabbing/holding defensively. They tried a few years ago, then Izzo cried about it so that went out the window

Further proof that college bball fans will never be satisfied with the amount of fouls called per game.

 

[EpenesaEpenesa]

Further proof that college bball fans will never be satisfied with the amount of fouls called per game.

It’s not that. It gets old watching grabs/holds and being rewarded as good defense

 

[pocha444444]

It’s not that. It gets old watching grabs/holds and being rewarded as good defense

But it's not rewarded, it gets called! Just look at last night. Obviously there will always be missed calls that you can point to and say "see they don't allow freedom of movement", but I'd rather they error on the side of not blowing the whistle than blowing it. There are also tons of bad calls the other way when a whistle is blown for nothing. If you aren't sure you saw something, then play on.

If more whistles are supposed to stop players from fouling, then the four guys who fouled out in regulation in the Indiana/Illinois game last night sure didn't get the message.

 

[Birky]

45 fouls in the game last night. 54 fouls in the Illinois game that followed, and OP says "I want more!"

I don’t think it’s the number of fouls, it’s the randomness of fouls.
If the rules didn’t change every 5 mini of game time, people/coaches wouldn’t have such a huge problem with it.

 

[pocha444444]

I don’t think it’s the number of fouls, it’s the randomness of fouls.
If the rules didn’t change every 5 mini of game time, people/coaches wouldn’t have such a huge problem with it.

I agree last night (really most nights) have been bad. Inconsistent as always. I've grown accustomed to that though, college refs will always be bad. It's just a fact of life.

 

[Hendy hawk]

What I want is the players to play the game the right way with the rules as they're written. The only way to get that is if the refs enforce the rules. If the refs do that all game long for every game, then the coaches and players will adjust and we'll get back to fun basketball.

Instead of the great basketball that we had back in the 80s, we've gotten MSU and Wisconsin football on the hardwood for the past few decades.

Agree with you
Basketball is nothing like it was designed.
Pushing and hand checking. Supposed to be a no/little contact sport.

 

[24 so far]

In the 2nd half especially, I thought when Kithier was in he could have been called for mugging Garza every possession. I know they bang a lot in the paint, etc., but he had one arm wrapped around him and the other up thru his armpit while riding his back the entire time.

The only thing missing was a foul call and a saddle.

 

[TritonHawkeye]

Luka has his 'cylinder' violated just about every trip Iowa takes down the floor

I haven't seen as much of this since Geoges Niang left college basketball.

 

[Moral]

but I'd rather they error on the side of not blowing the whistle than blowing it. There are also tons of bad calls the other way when

WOB?

 

[Bulldogs1974]

45 fouls in the game last night. 54 fouls in the Illinois game that followed, and OP says "I want more!"

players will adjust to officiating. MSU just relies on officials adjusting to them.

 

[Bulldogs1974]

Watched the 83 Iowa indiana game last night on espnu. The game has certainly changed in regards to pushing and player movement.
In some good ways and some bad.

 

[pocha444444]

WOB?

Learn something new everyday

 

[Franisdaman]

I don’t think it’s the number of fouls, it’s the randomness of fouls.
If the rules didn’t change every 5 mini of game time, people/coaches wouldn’t have such a huge problem with it.

agreed.

call it the same on both ends, all game long

if its a foul, call it

and don't swallow the whistle just because the game is about to end

 

[just_somebody]

I, too, am disappointed by the grabbing. I don't follow it as close as I used to, but the NBA definitely seems to have made a change to allow more free flowing movement, especially compared to 30 years ago.

When you have coaches with the philosophy of 'the refs can't call them all', it negatives effects the game.

And (fully accepting my transition into old-man-yelling 'get off my lawn'-territory) the two hands on a dribbler and constant pushing off a line I see taught to starting with second graders is frustrating and disappointing

 

[TheTruthTheWholeTruth]

It’s kind of like targeting in football. Guys had to, and did for the most part, to a new rule. CBB players would eventually adjust to being called for hand checking and mugging when they fouled out enough times. It’s up to the officials. Sadly, they aren’t following through.

 

[BubsFinn]

Further proof that college bball fans will never be satisfied with the amount of fouls called per game.

I think the majority of college basketball fans want the number of fouls called in a game to be at least somewhat close to the number of fouls that happen in a game. Calling a fifth of the fouls that happen only encourages more physical play and less fundamental play.

 

[HawkBall23]

45 fouls in the game last night. 54 fouls in the Illinois game that followed, and OP says "I want more!"

So you're absolutely fine with Loyer basically having his hands crazy-glued to Touissaint as he dribbles around a screen - and Loyer is hanging on for dear life because his foot speed can't compete with JoeT's - but Joe is called for a foul, while trying to drive, when he 'swipes' an arm across Loyer's hands to try and free himself from the human octopus??

That's not a game I want to watch, no matter who's playing. The officiating rules & guidelines are meaningless if they aren't going to be enforced.


I don't know when - and officially how - the B1G became the "no blood, no foul" conference that every commentator calls it, but that is the biggest reason the officiating is as sh***y as it is, IMHO. The refs do their best to ignore the banging down low - especially if LG has the ball - but then they'll turn around and call a little reach or touch foul. So frustrating.

 

[The Deplorable Sleeping Dog]

First rule of anything important: things do not happen coincidentally. The last three games we have watched the interior defenders hitting Luka from every angle when he already has possession. We're not all crazy and everyone has seen it happen. Last night was the first time it was called with any degree of reliability. Sparty got crazy hot for a while last night, and its a roster full of talent but not a very good team. BUT...for the first time in years we're watching the thugs get somewhat honest officiating and what you're seeing is MSU struggling because those guys have never had to learn how to play without fouling. We'll see how long it lasts. Maybe someone in the Big Ten office, or the officials themselves, have tired of the guy whose team is committing 35 fouls a game bitching every 8 or 9 minutes when they actually get called for one of those 35 fouls.

Here would be two good and easily enforceable rules that a monkey would understand. Regardless of where you are on the court, which includes the low post, a foul is called if a defender touches the guy with the ball. No contact with the guy holding the ball. That would also clean up the hand checking. Every guy on this board can tell the difference between holding your hand out, palm down and using fingers to kind of feel the ball handler, and every guy knows when the palm goes vertical and the defender has his entire hand pushing against the ball handler. And so does every Big Ten official.

Second, easy rule arising from the first. If a player is being held they can swat the hand holding them. If the official sees the swat it means they've already seen the hold and not called it.

The game was not designed for the behemoths that play inside today. These are huge boys and men and collisions, bumping, using hips and shoulders to get position in inevitable and makes for good physical basketball. But hands off the ball so to speak.

 

[pocha444444]

So you're absolutely fine with Loyer basically having his hands crazy-glued to Touissaint as he dribbles around a screen - and Loyer is hanging on for dear life because his foot speed can't compete with JoeT's - but Joe is called for a foul, while trying to drive, when he 'swipes' an arm across Loyer's hands to try and free himself from the human octopus??

That's not a game I want to watch, no matter who's playing. The officiating rules & guidelines are meaningless if they aren't going to be enforced.


I don't know when - and officially how - the B1G became the "no blood, no foul" conference that every commentator calls it, but that is the biggest reason the officiating is as sh***y as it is, IMHO. The refs do their best to ignore the banging down low - especially if LG has the ball - but then they'll turn around and call a little reach or touch foul. So frustrating.

Lol Garza gets as many calls as the so called ones that are missed.

 

[pocha444444]

I think the majority of college basketball fans want the number of fouls called in a game to be at least somewhat close to the number of fouls that happen in a game. Calling a fifth of the fouls that happen only encourages more physical play and less fundamental play.

I'd like to watch a game with some of you on here sometime, just so I can try and figure out all these "fouls" that are supposedly missed. On second thought, maybe a half, a full game might be a little much.

There's going to be contact, not everything is or should be a foul. The problem is and always has been too many whistles in college basketball. It just boggles my mind how some people want even more.

 

[papabeef]

Further proof that college bball fans will never be satisfied with the amount of fouls called per game.

or the goal tending rules when applied correctly . lol

 

[DodgerHawki]

Agree with you
Basketball is nothing like it was designed.
Pushing and hand checking. Supposed to be a no/little contact sport.

I'll be in the minority here, but the game has changed since the 1980's and mostly for the better. Literally every possession now would feature a foul if no contact between the defender and offensive player was allowed. Go watch the great Iowa team of 1986-87. Iowa had one guy on the floor usually, either BJ or his backup, who could handle the ball. The rest of the players on the floor would be uncomfortable if forced to dribble more than 2-3 times with the ball. In the half-court offense, the Iowa player is standing there with the ball above his head waiting for the flex cuts to be run and not in any position to do much with the ball. With the defender backed off several feet. No one plays offense or defense that way today, thank goodness.

Each team today features way more guys on the floor who can shoot and dribble, so defenses have to extend out to the 3-point line. Offenses today are much more about creating offense off the dribble, either with a ball screen or just by attacking space. Part of this is the shot clock of 30 seconds, and part of it is the proliferation of more players on each team who can dribble and shoot. With a 30-second shot clock, you don't have time to reverse the ball 4 times and continue to screen/pass, screen/pass. At most, you get 1-2 ball reversals per possession before you have to try and score.

I would hate to see basketball where no contact is allowed. The NBA has figured it out with their refs. They allow offensive players to move but by the same token don't bail out offensive players who run into people when they are going nowhere with the ball. I do agree the college refs could do a better job of making defenders not grab away from the ball.

 

[Hendy hawk]

I'll be in the minority here, but the game has changed since the 1980's and mostly for the better. Literally every possession now would feature a foul if no contact between the defender and offensive player was allowed. Go watch the great Iowa team of 1986-87. Iowa had one guy on the floor usually, either BJ or his backup, who could handle the ball. The rest of the players on the floor would be uncomfortable if forced to dribble more than 2-3 times with the ball. In the half-court offense, the Iowa player is standing there with the ball above his head waiting for the flex cuts to be run and not in any position to do much with the ball. With the defender backed off several feet. No one plays offense or defense that way today, thank goodness.

Each team today features way more guys on the floor who can shoot and dribble, so defenses have to extend out to the 3-point line. Offenses today are much more about creating offense off the dribble, either with a ball screen or just by attacking space. Part of this is the shot clock of 30 seconds, and part of it is the proliferation of more players on each team who can dribble and shoot. With a 30-second shot clock, you don't have time to reverse the ball 4 times and continue to screen/pass, screen/pass. At most, you get 1-2 ball reversals per possession before you have to try and score.

I would hate to see basketball where no contact is allowed. The NBA has figured it out with their refs. They allow offensive players to move but by the same token don't bail out offensive players who run into people when they are going nowhere with the ball. I do agree the college refs could do a better job of making defenders not grab away from the ball.

There will always be contact but grabbing a player as he dribbles past you should be a foul.
Especially in the back court.
I agree with what you say. Especially your last line.

 

[Franisdaman]

It’s kind of like targeting in football. Guys had to, and did for the most part, to a new rule. CBB players would eventually adjust to being called for hand checking and mugging when they fouled out enough times. It’s up to the officials. Sadly, they aren’t following through.

And when their bosses review their performances, why aren't these officials being shown that they are missing foul calls for grabbing/holding?

 

[kceasthawk]

All the "very good Defensive teams" are allowed to keep a hand on the ballhandler like its sewed to their jersey or skin, but its never called. Another 'relic of the past' is the so-called Cylinder Rule. Luka has his 'cylinder' violated just about every trip Iowa takes down the floor, but again, its never called.

What happened to these things not being allowed - or at least, not supposed to be allowed - like only a 3 or 4 seasons ago??

It was all just lip service, like most of the NCAA attempts to "clean up the game".

 

[TRE 12]

Several pts. The cylinder play is designed mostly for BHD facing the basket in a stationary position. The intent being to keep guards from getting up in the grill of the BHD. They must be allowed the freedom to make a basketball move. When in the low post, the rules allow you to armbar the post player, in this case most of Luka's catches are with his back to the basket. Yes, occasionally he catches, pivots and steps back but most of the post players know that if they get too close, he'll go by. YES, the cylinder play is still called/enforced but this being year 3, the players have adjusted very well. Same with the flop rule...you don't see it anymore....took them about 1/2 of last season to adjust and they did. As far as the NBA...they changed the rule to force defenders to actively guard their matchup within 3 secs in the 1/2 court set, thus why they spread the floor and run the 2 man game...you can't come help until they move thus the def 3 sec call and much more movement and space

 

[Eternal Return]

It’s typically called from November-December. January-February not called

Basically, it's not called in the B10 conference season. That seemed to gain traction and become the rule the longer Izoo has been at MSU. It's no surprise tackle basketball in the B10 came from the same state that gave the world Chuck Daly and Bill Laimbeer. ****ing Izoo.

 

[The Deplorable Sleeping Dog]

Basically, it's not called in the B10 conference season. That seemed to gain traction and become the rule the longer Izoo has been at MSU. It's no surprise tackle basketball in the B10 came from the same state that gave the world Chuck Daly and Bill Laimbeer. ****ing Izoo.

That's a great point. That was the first time I remember the "they won't call them all" approach to basketball. That little prick Isaiah was one of the dirtiest players of all time and the league promoted him like some bright smiling kid just playing his heart out. Much easier to rebound when the man between you and the board is no longer an obstacle, just push 'em out of the way or jump all over their back hence the wonder of Rodman.

 

[The Deplorable Sleeping Dog]

Basically, it's not called in the B10 conference season. That seemed to gain traction and become the rule the longer Izoo has been at MSU. It's no surprise tackle basketball in the B10 came from the same state that gave the world Chuck Daly and Bill Laimbeer. ****ing Izoo.

And when their bosses review their performances, why aren't these officials being shown that they are missing foul calls for grabbing/holding?

That is the single most important question in the entire issue of the both dishonest and incompetent Big Ten Officiating. The short answer is simple: their "bosses" like the results the officiating produces. Think about your own working environment. What would you think if some coworker consistently did something shady that also helped the company and the company knew of the shady dealings and the profitability of those shady dealings and did nothing to stop it? That specific behavior is rampant in some industries: mortgage lending, venture capital lenders, non public trading in equities or debt, collections ( the shining example), insurance adjusting, medical billing, etc... You have any idea of how many brokers back date trades and get a compliant compliance officer to sign off on that back dated trade?

So why would basketball officials or the conferences for whom they work allow the same "mistakes" to be made for decades? Money. At the end of the year its kind of weird how the officiating controversies all work to benefit the same four to six programs, which in turn, create more fan interest, better TV ratings and bigger apparel sales.

Two axioms explain it all. Nothing happens by coincidence. Always follow the money.

 

[HawkBall23]

Two more instances in the OSU game......

- JBo runs around screens like his ass is on fire, #13 blatantly reaches out to grab him (to slow him down), causing JBo to lose his footing... and no whistle.

- JBo is literally trading sweat with Luka as he tries to "rub off" #13 in going around a screen, as #13 is hanging all over his backside - and #13 reaches in, creating contact with both JBo and Luka to knock the ball away - and is allowed to force the turnover... with no whistle for a foul.

Yeah. "The Complete Lack of Freedom of Movement" is totally alive and well.