So, what did Bill Murray do?

FAUlty Gator

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LOL...and then they would go home and talk about what an a-hole that guy in the waiting room was. Your father was embarrassing you but you don't think he was offending them? They laughed because it was expected. Now, they don't pretend. The idea that people have made this seismic shift in just a few years is ridiculous...their expectations have changed. That's it.
Oh Jesus...what a sheltered existence you must have had. Good grief.
 

Nole Lou

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That's not what I've heard. I'm guessing those people who think so also didn't respect his privacy.

LOL, he's the one who shows up at other people's wedding uninvited, or eats food off their plates.

He's a narcissistic dick, and I get someone liking his talent, but this late career adjulation/god like status that has been conferred on him has been rather nauseating.

Him basically trying to paralyze a 70 year old Lee Corso on Gameday a few years ago was more than enough for me.
 

Nole Lou

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Those are also just tired, lame cliches and not funny anymore either.

Maybe it was "edgy" to make racist jokes in the 70s and 80s -- I was a collector of those "Truly Tasteless Jokes" books -- but if you look at the jokes in them now, they are hacky and egregious and -- worst of all -- not really clever.

Really, that's the litmus test for comedy. If you can tell an edgy/offensive joke, and it's a great joke, it stands on its own. It's above "cancellation". And lot's of jokes have multiple levels, something can be offensive out of context, but with levels of irony or meta commentary around it. Or they're just a brilliant joke. See Anthony Jeselnek, or Sara Silverman when she was edgy.

Don Rickles' jokes were mostly exquisitely crafted, hilarious, and have the context of a well known act and everyone in the audience there being 100% in on the bit. In the context of the show, the broad range of targets and the willingness of the audience made it implicit that behind the insults we all have reason to laugh at ourselves. That doesn't mean you have to like it, or can't be offended by it, but its legitimate.

Pull the same exact joke out of a Don Rickles act, and have the office bully direct it to the Asian guy in accounting, and it's not the same joke. We don't have to pretend it's totally cool.

Your uncle telling racist street jokes at thanksgiving...that's not funny nor needs to be respected. A comedian standing on stage yelling "rape rape rape", that doesn't need to be respected, I wouldn't book that guy, and it wouldn't be because he was offensive, it would be because he was offensive AND not funny, so what's the point?

Art can be messy and ugly, and still be art. But not everything that is messy and ugly is art. Some people on both the cancel brigade and on the anti-cancel brigade can't seem to tell the difference, but most people (and most comedians) can. Patton Oswalt can be forced into apologizing for thinking Dave Chapelle is funny, but he still knows Dave Chapelle is funny.
 

tarheelbybirth

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Oh Jesus...what a sheltered existence you must have had. Good grief.
LOL...you're kidding, right? If anything, you were the "sheltered" one. Locked in your father's view of the world where making fun of others was considered comedy gold. Just out of curiosity, if everybody thought he was funny, why were you embarrassed?
 

torbee

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Really, that's the litmus test for comedy. If you can tell an edgy/offensive joke, and it's a great joke, it stands on its own. It's above "cancellation". And lot's of jokes have multiple levels, something can be offensive out of context, but with levels of irony or meta commentary around it. Or they're just a brilliant joke. See Anthony Jeselnek, or Sara Silverman when she was edgy.

Don Rickles' jokes were mostly exquisitely crafted, hilarious, and have the context of a well known act and everyone in the audience there being 100% in on the bit. In the context of the show, the broad range of targets and the willingness of the audience made it implicit that behind the insults we all have reason to laugh at ourselves. That doesn't mean you have to like it, or can't be offended by it, but its legitimate.

Pull the same exact joke out of a Don Rickles act, and have the office bully direct it to the Asian guy in accounting, and it's not the same joke. We don't have to pretend it's totally cool.

Your uncle telling racist street jokes at thanksgiving...that's not funny nor needs to be respected. A comedian standing on stage yelling "rape rape rape", that doesn't need to be respected, I wouldn't book that guy, and it wouldn't be because he was offensive, it would be because he was offensive AND not funny, so what's the point?

Art can be messy and ugly, and still be art. But not everything that is messy and ugly is art. Some people on both the cancel brigade and on the anti-cancel brigade can't seem to tell the difference, but most people (and most comedians) can. Patton Oswalt can be forced into apologizing for thinking Dave Chapelle is funny, but he still knows Dave Chapelle is funny.
Pretty much nailed it.

Chapelle is a great example. I loved his old show. I like his new standup material. I also think he's kind of a dick for punching down at trans people and I find it annoying he's obsessive about going back to that well over and over again. But I still know he's funny and respect his right to put his act together how he wants.
 

tumorboy

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Pretty much nailed it.

Chapelle is a great example. I loved his old show. I like his new standup material. I also think he's kind of a dick for punching down at trans people and I find it annoying he's obsessive about going back to that well over and over again. But I still know he's funny and respect his right to put his act together how he wants.
My problem with some comedian's is they start to preach at us. Instead of being funny. The preaching can overshadow the material.
 
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tarheelbybirth

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Pretty much nailed it.

Chapelle is a great example. I loved his old show. I like his new standup material. I also think he's kind of a dick for punching down at trans people and I find it annoying he's obsessive about going back to that well over and over again. But I still know he's funny and respect his right to put his act together how he wants.
He can put his act together however he wants but he can't whine about the consequences (other than getting physically attacked...that's reprehensible). If venues cancel his shows, they are just as much within their rights as Chappelle. You can't separate the right to offend from the right to be offended.
 

Nole Lou

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Pretty much nailed it.

Chapelle is a great example. I loved his old show. I like his new standup material. I also think he's kind of a dick for punching down at trans people and I find it annoying he's obsessive about going back to that well over and over again. But I still know he's funny and respect his right to put his act together how he wants.

Yep. Funny is funny. If it hits too close to home, its ok not to partake.

I don't agree with everything in Chapelle's standup, but to me, in his last special he's walking up to the line of not being funny enough, because he's starting with the end in mind. It's one thing to come up with a really funny joke, and have it be at the expense of trans people. I'm a believer in the laugh above all when it comes to comedy.

It's another thing to sit down and say "hmmm, what's the funniest thing I can say that will take down trans people?" To me, you can start to feel that in his last special, and the market should speak. It doesn't matter whether you're progressive like most comedians, or regressive like Chapelle (on this issue). It's almost impossible to be really funny and an activist, and he's getting close.

Happens every time...guys like Ricky Gervais and Bill Maher had good veins of natural material zinging religion, but when it becomes their persona they have to uphold, it becomes hard to stay funny. It also makes them, and this is starting to happen with Chapelle, seem a LOT more mean spirited. I mean, if it's not that funny, it just seems like an excuse to say something nasty. You've got to be able to hide behind the laughs.

It's why Trump was pretty terrible for comedy, when he should have been great. Everyone HAVING to come up with Trump or Republican material, whether it really worked or not, did not have people really working at their top potential.
 

Nole Lou

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He can put his act together however he wants but he can't whine about the consequences (other than getting physically attacked...that's reprehensible). If venues cancel his shows, they are just as much within their rights as Chappelle. You can't separate the right to offend from the right to be offended.

You can't complain about their right to not book him, by any means. Everyone has that right.

You can complain about whether it's ultimately good for comedy overall for there to be a political purity test on subject matter or language for the systems (clubs/TV specials) in which comedy operates.

Nobody should be asking for a law that forces anyone to book or watch Chapelle. But there's nothing wrong for people advocating against self-imposed censorship in the industry if they believe it ultimately has a negative affect on that industry's product, which is laughs and comedic art. There are few situations where censorship, either legal or self-imposed (like the Hayes Code), is conducive to producing art.
 

FAUlty Gator

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LOL...you're kidding, right? If anything, you were the "sheltered" one. Locked in your father's view of the world where making fun of others was considered comedy gold. Just out of curiosity, if everybody thought he was funny, why were you embarrassed?
Well…let’s consider that I’m the one telling you about a large group of people out there that don’t reduce everything down to identity and don’t get offended by harmless quips. And you’re the one saying that those people don’t exist. Add that to the fact that you have apparently never been embarrassed by anything your parents did on public, and I’ll say again…yeah…you’ve had a sheltered life.
 

SI_NYC

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LOL, he's the one who shows up at other people's wedding uninvited, or eats food off their plates.

He's a narcissistic dick, and I get someone liking his talent, but this late career adjulation/god like status that has been conferred on him has been rather nauseating.

Him basically trying to paralyze a 70 year old Lee Corso on Gameday a few years ago was more than enough for me.
the-big-lebowski-thats-like-your-opinion-man.gif
 

pink shizzle

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I'm surprised - but not much - that so many are jumping to his defense when none of us has any remote idea what was done or said.
That's what people do with celebs. They'll defend them until the end just because of their name. Many people give more support and love to celebs than their friends and family.
 

tarheelbybirth

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You can't complain about their right to not book him, by any means. Everyone has that right.

You can complain about whether it's ultimately good for comedy overall for there to be a political purity test on subject matter or language for the systems (clubs/TV specials) in which comedy operates.

Nobody should be asking for a law that forces anyone to book or watch Chapelle. But there's nothing wrong for people advocating against self-imposed censorship in the industry if they believe it ultimately has a negative affect on that industry's product, which is laughs and comedic art. There are few situations where censorship, either legal or self-imposed (like the Hayes Code), is conducive to producing art.
Controversial art will always have supporters and detractors. It still gets made. Serrano's Piss Christ absolutely incensed some people while others applauded it.
Well…let’s consider that I’m the one telling you about a large group of people out there that don’t reduce everything down to identity and don’t get offended by harmless quips. And you’re the one saying that those people don’t exist. Add that to the fact that you have apparently never been embarrassed by anything your parents did on public, and I’ll say again…yeah…you’ve had a sheltered life.
You have no idea how those people felt about your father telling jokes at their expense. All you know is that they laughed so, in YOUR mind, they must have thought he was funny. That’s sheltered - as in not being able to understand how others felt when their race or ethnicity was a punchline to a joke.

My father’s alcoholism was embarrassing. Him hitting and cheating on my mother was embarrassing. Him telling jokes…not so much. Yeah, you’re sheltered.
 

alaskanseminole

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Those are also just tired, lame cliches and not funny anymore either.

Maybe it was "edgy" to make racist jokes in the 70s and 80s -- I was a collector of those "Truly Tasteless Jokes" books -- but if you look at the jokes in them now, they are hacky and egregious and -- worst of all -- not really clever.
I think that's likely true with most things...unless you think the original Poltergeist is still scary and Elvis's dancing is vulgar. :cool:
 

SI_NYC

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Well…let’s consider that I’m the one telling you about a large group of people out there that don’t reduce everything down to identity and don’t get offended by harmless quips. \\
I wish there were more people in this world that weren't so easily offended. The world would be a better place. Also, I wish people would focus more on the intent of a person's words rather than trying to find anything to be offended about.
 
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FAUlty Gator

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Controversial art will always have supporters and detractors. It still gets made. Serrano's Piss Christ absolutely incensed some people while others applauded it.

You have no idea how those people felt about your father telling jokes at their expense. All you know is that they laughed so, in YOUR mind, they must have thought he was funny. That’s sheltered - as in not being able to understand how others felt when their race or ethnicity was a punchline to a joke.

My father’s alcoholism was embarrassing. Him hitting and cheating on my mother was embarrassing. Him telling jokes…not so much. Yeah, you’re sheltered.
Again…proving you have no earthly concept of what goes on in the world. You’re scared and offended by everything, therefore everyone else MUST BE!

I’m the youngest of 10 kids from Philly and my father was a union president and business agent. Every race, color, creed and walk of life has spent countless hours and meals at my dinner table. I stood for 4 and a half hours shaking the hands of hundreds of people he impacted and helped in life at his viewing. All whom I’m sure he poked fun and got poked by. He loved people. They loved him and he always commanded the room.

So, why was I embarrassed at that time? Because I was a dumbass kid that didn’t know any better.
 
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I don't know what Murray did, it could be anything, maybe he called Keke "brown sugar"? We'll likely never know.

The public's reaction to and acceptance of comedy is quite different now than it was even a decade ago. I'm of the opinion that comedy should be uncensored, raw and at times downright offensive. Good comedy is more than just making people laugh. It should challenge us as a society, even expose and chide us for its many flaws and hypocrisies.

Not everyone likes that end of the comedic continuum and it's the reason why many comics won't play college campus shows anymore. Comics like Rickles, Gottfried and Saget were highly offensive, but most people understood it was a part of an act, not a representation of their true self, feelings or thoughts. The younger generation just doesn't get that, and it's a damn shame honestly.
 

Colonoscopy

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That's not a black and white answer (no pun intended) and depends on setting and context. I have close friendships with people of all races and have watched stereo-typical comments been made in front of me, to me, and around me with jeers, jabs and laughter because friends know its not coming from a place of hate. Additionally, I've also watched white comedians make these comments with minorities falling out of their chairs in laughter.

IMO, it depends on the setting and the intent behind the comment/statement. Have people crossed a line over the decades? Absolutely! And I'm sure we can both provide endless examples, but like I said above it's not black and white and each situation should be judged/handled in its own right...these blanked judgements and over-reactions have created a society of easily triggered and offended people. We've lost the ability to laugh at ourselves as well as recognizing our cultural differences.

It's funny, I have a running hidden joke with one of my best friends from High School (who is black). He'll post some random viral video of a black person doing some funny, crazy, etc. stuff. I always chime in with the same gif. Here are a few recent examples:





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Right. Context is everything, and if you don't get that, you suck.

I'm not in favor of modifying content in effort to appease those with little ability or willingness to understand this.
 

Colonoscopy

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Sarah Silverman with an obviously hilarious "chink" joke that would probably cause an uproar today.