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Stalling is controlled unbelievably well in freestyle. If you stall, you will lose, period.

There's nothing that would stop or detract from folkstyle by adopting two simple rules from freestyle. Basically you can't step out or let yourself be pushed out (no fleeing like guys do in folk) or you give up a point, and if you stall you're given 30 seconds to score or you give up a point. It's ridiculously simple and wouldn't change folkstyle much at all except to force guys to wrestle instead of just avoid takedowns and score with escapes.
I didn't say anything about those two purposed ideas. I was talking specifically about riding time, not push outs. In freestyle you get a verbal warning for passivity before you're put on the clock. The 2nd warning you go on the clock with potential to give up a point.

Folk, you get the warning and then you're auto dinged on the 2nd. So, I don't know if that'll guarantee more activity or not.

The biggest issue right now is the subjectivity of the "stall"
No one seems to know what it is, especially the refs.
 

ChiPackHawk

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No physician would take on that sort of responsibility, especially without a proper examination. There is way too much liability laced into that idea.
A proper examination would be part of it. But I understand it would have to be the same physician. Please don't say it can't be done. Athletes are held out all the time by a doctor who trumps the authority of the coach. They also have to clear the person to come back. The issue in this case is having the same person. And physicians are paid well to take on that kind of responsibility. How would that assumption of liability be any different than a coach sending out an athlete he knows is hurt? The difference is that is what a doctor is trained to do.
 

TNTwrestle

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IOWA/ISU dual had this happen this year...only other time i've ever seen it call was Mike Allen and that was waaaaaaaaaaaaaay back.
This used to happen all the time in the '80s. In fact, I'm pretty sure there was a rule for a couple of years saying if there was no score in the first period, the ref had to give a stall warning. He could call either or both wrestlers but had to call something. They did away with it , trying to keep refs out of the outcome of the match. Maybe it should come back.

Also, I didn't like the step-out rule idea initially, but think it would be great now. I think the area of mat being used would be greatly reduced instantly. You don't have to back up twenty feet to get the guy stepping forward or pushing in. If you can't get the set-up in ten steps, you're probably not going to in twenty.

I don't like giving up the riding time point, but there needs to be some accountability. All the riding parallel, hanging in a crab ride with the guy on all fours the whole period, pushing out of bounds when they get to their feet, etc. needs to stop. Also, sitting on an ankle (ala PSU) is my biggest pet peeve (along with double boots and no attempt to turn). I don't know what rule could be implemented to stop the hanging on for a point that isn't subjective (we don't need refs making more decisions, most aren't very good at it), but something has to be done.

There are a lot of good ideas on this post, some of which would not be enforceable, but stalling in all positions needs to be addressed.
 
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bourbon n blues

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I didn't say anything about those two purposed ideas. I was talking specifically about riding time, not push outs. In freestyle you get a verbal warning for passivity before you're put on the clock. The 2nd warning you go on the clock with potential to give up a point.

Folk, you get the warning and then you're auto dinged on the 2nd. So, I don't know if that'll guarantee more activity or not.

The biggest issue right now is the subjectivity of the "stall"
No one seems to know what it is, especially the refs.
I've heard others say what you're saying.
 

bourbon n blues

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A proper examination would be part of it. But I understand it would have to be the same physician. Please don't say it can't be done. Athletes are held out all the time by a doctor who trumps the authority of the coach. They also have to clear the person to come back. The issue in this case is having the same person. And physicians are paid well to take on that kind of responsibility. How would that assumption of liability be any different than a coach sending out an athlete he knows is hurt? The difference is that is what a doctor is trained to do.
Proper examinations might include diagnostic imaging and such that might not be able to immediately determine eligibility. Which leads you right back at the beginning.
 

burk11

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Some random thoughts to add to the scrum. At its core wrestling is physics. And wrestling always obeys the laws of physics (i.e. balance and leverage; mass x acceleration equals force; always an equal and opposite reaction; et. al).

The latest/ state-of-the-art training, nutrition and conditioning has created a contemporary wrestler that is particularly forceful and very explosive. In the course of a wrestling career (8-10 years) great energies and forces are directed upon the wrestler’s body. Most bodies will eventually concede to the daily grind and natural physiological attrition. Knee braces, shoulder straps, finger wraps, surgical procedures are incidental to the price a wrestler pays. And by extension, the effect is a MFF.

Wrestling is a combative sport, much like boxing or football. Rules have been modified in these sports, and in many other sports to protect the competitors. Examples are many; prohibited blocking at the knee, the standing eight-count, cushioned racing tracks to protect horse and jockey.

Several of the contributors to this thread are recommending important/significant changes. Many of the suggested reforms will certainly provide athletes with further/additional protection. In life we occasionally we have options. Such as getting hit by a Metra Train, or maybe getting slammed by Gable Steveson’s blast double.

I’ll take the train. A Hobson’s Choice.
 
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WxNWHawk

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People also seem to forget that there are a bunch of 5, 6, and 7 year guys in this program and a steady diet of Iowa wrestling training and accompanying B1G schedules is going to break anyone eventually. Especially nowadays with nutrition and technology squeezing every single bit of performance out of these guys’ bodies. I know we all like TNT’s intensity and fire, but could over-training be part of it? Who knows? Are Penn State and Michigans training regimens as brutal as ours? Does training have to be so crazy as to make wear and tear that severe? Honest questions.

The human body in the past decade or so has started to hit a point where it’s performance limits have been met. Guys are getting stronger, faster, and bigger along with increased stamina, but ACLs, labrum’s, hip joints, and backs are the same as they were a couple hundred years ago (for the most part).

Im not advocating for guys to wrestle through injuries, I just think a MMF should have some consequences to it. I think counting as a loss is fair. Your job was to wrestle, you couldn’t make it happen, that’s a failure to compete whether it was your fault or not.
 
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MarionHawk

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I think it's pretty clear by this thread that there are super easy and reliable ways to combat stalling and ducking by MFF or otherwise.

To fix stalling you just have to create a push-out rule and force action with a shot clock, and only clock riding time after a TD or reversal. No RT to start a period in the top position. Either cut the guy, tilt him (which is the correct answer), or get hit with passivity. If you step out of bounds it's a point.

To fix ducking, MFFs count as a loss. Also, tie the overall record of a school's weight class to NCAA and conference seedings. So for example Iowa's 149 would have an 8-4 record instead of 8-2 going into B1G/Nationals

For clarity, I'm not saying Max or Brands were ducking with Turk whatsoever. There are legitimate times to sit wrestlers. I'm just demonstrating how I think it should work and how it would prevent ducking.

Personally, I don't like the whole "Team" record thing at all. If a 3 time AA is working back from an ACL his senior season and his teammate goes 2-11 until he can get back into the line-up and the AA goes 7-0 to finish off the season, then the overall team record is 9-11 going into the NCAA's? When that guy ends up matched with an Iowa guy with a 6 seed in the first round, everybody on here would be bitching about how could they let that happen,
 

MVPFAN

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Personally, I don't like the whole "Team" record thing at all. If a 3 time AA is working back from an ACL his senior season and his teammate goes 2-11 until he can get back into the line-up and the AA goes 7-0 to finish off the season, then the overall team record is 9-11 going into the NCAA's? When that guy ends up matched with an Iowa guy with a 6 seed in the first round, everybody on here would be bitching about how could they let that happen,
No kidding. It's silly to lump records of various guys together.
 

lookleft goright

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I can see counting the immediate match as a loss so in a case like Kem or Rivera it's only the one loss from the semifinal match. Tony and Jaydin would have been losses and given the circumstances I think they still MFF because a loss to #1 doesn't hurt them. Same with Kem. A loss to StallRocci doesn't hurt him. I wouldn't have this be applicable to opens as guys MFF to leave early a lot and I wouldn't have it applicable vs non D1 guys.
In my scenario, Kem would have to count a loss for each of the wrestle back matches he Mff'd. Lets be serious, we are seeding according to the chance of winning or placing. If a guy cannot wrestle, then his chances are reduced. We are not seeding a guy based on how he will do completely healthy. It is a tough solution and for some guys it will really suck - but something has to happen.
 

Grip220

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Babylonia parts unknown
Micic and Rivera are all banged up and in other leagues guys like O’Conner are working with heavy injuries the sport is grueling.
We have more than our share lately and we could be looking at some things as it’s been said.
I do Agree lifting techniques along with stretching and nutrition are things that can always be improved on.
 
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burk11

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Personally, I don't like the whole "Team" record thing at all. If ...
If not an original idea, certainly an intriguing idea. Maybe the idea of strength in numbers doesn't work anymore. Maybe the concept of the nation-state is antiquated. Maybe it really is every man for himself, in contempory society.

The strength of the Wolf is the pack, the strength of the pack is the Wolf.
 

ChiPackHawk

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Would you want to be the doctor getting sued for not signing off on a forfeit?

Imagine Wrestler XYZ and his coach come to you looking for sign-off on a MFF. You don't see anything wrong, so you don't sign off. Think about the shit storm that would bring down on you as a doctor.

The only solution is to err on the side of signing everything off, and then you're in the same spot you are now.

Only solution for a MFF is to count it as a loss.
Why would a doctor get sued for not signing off on a forfeit? Athletes are held out of competition every day because of medical advice. I mentioned this as a way to not punish an athlete for a medical forfeit after the fact. If the injury is legitimate, that takes all of the pressure off the athlete and the coach. Listen, this has gotten way off course and I understand it's not really feasible. For one thing, a doctor in this instance shouldn't care two F's who the athlete is or who he represents. He or she also should not care about wins or losses. It's if the athlete is injured and could potentially experience further injury. I also mentioned I would not do this during the regular season, but only at the tournament that is a qualifier for the NCAA's.

You mention liability for a doctor, whose job it is to determine health, but don't say anything about the liability of a coach/school who may be willingly sending his athlete out before being ready. There is far more potential for liability there than would there ever would be with a professional doctor providing a professional opinion on health.

Imagine the shit storm of the doctor not signing off when there was an actual injury, and the athlete competes because of the pressure from coaches or fans. Permanent injury occurs as a result. Guess who gets it then? Everyone is focused on the wins and losses - I just have a little thought about the athlete and injury.
 

WxNWHawk

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Personally, I don't like the whole "Team" record thing at all. If a 3 time AA is working back from an ACL his senior season and his teammate goes 2-11 until he can get back into the line-up and the AA goes 7-0 to finish off the season, then the overall team record is 9-11 going into the NCAA's? When that guy ends up matched with an Iowa guy with a 6 seed in the first round, everybody on here would be bitching about how could they let that happen,
Then you're gonna have ducking and you're gonna have d-bags like Dresser playing games with matchups. What's your solution?
 

MarionHawk

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Then you're gonna have ducking and you're gonna have d-bags like Dresser playing games with matchups. What's your solution?
Honestly, I'm perfectly fine with guys ducking other guys, I really am. At the end of the day, to win a NC, you'll have to go through them to win it. I think there is something to a comfortability with a guy's style. As an example, RBY is obviously very comfortable with ADS' style. So I think there are certain guys who may think they have a better chance against a superior opponent by not wrestling them multiple times. Whether you want to hear it or believe it, I think ducking can be a successful strategy. It might suck from a fan's point of view but I don't think it's "killing" the sport by any means.
 

GoHawks1996

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A proper examination would be part of it. But I understand it would have to be the same physician. Please don't say it can't be done. Athletes are held out all the time by a doctor who trumps the authority of the coach. They also have to clear the person to come back. The issue in this case is having the same person. And physicians are paid well to take on that kind of responsibility. How would that assumption of liability be any different than a coach sending out an athlete he knows is hurt? The difference is that is what a doctor is trained to do.
If we had to get doctor authorization to wrestle after MFF we would be missing over half our team at Nationals.

I get where you're coming from but this is just a terrible idea and doesn't work at all for wrestling, because guys can wrestle without ACLs, Labrums, etc.
 

TNTwrestle

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Honestly, I'm perfectly fine with guys ducking other guys, I really am. At the end of the day, to win a NC, you'll have to go through them to win it. I think there is something to a comfortability with a guy's style. As an example, RBY is obviously very comfortable with ADS' style. So I think there are certain guys who may think they have a better chance against a superior opponent by not wrestling them multiple times. Whether you want to hear it or believe it, I think ducking can be a successful strategy. It might suck from a fan's point of view but I don't think it's "killing" the sport by any means.
I hate to admit it, but I kind of agree with this. If you're nursing something, and your potential opponent is known for working that body part over, why risk further injury. Or a conflicting style that you don't want to give them a chance to adjust to. In the past, Iowa wrestlers have often beat a guy the first time, but their opponents have, in a match or two made adjustments to overcome their style, see DeSant/RBY, Young/Berge, and many others. Some people you need to see a couple times to figure out, see Anthony Robles. Lots of examples out there where avoiding a particular match-up makes sense. Live to fight another day.

All that being said, people ducking drives me crazy. I don't like it, but I understand how it can benefit in some situations.
 

Kwoodhawk

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Ducking...........YAWN...........

Just something else for people to whine and complain about without having any understanding or knowledge of the reasons behind any specific situation. Allows them to make rash generalizations that may not have any factual relationship to the situation they are complaining about.
 

Ilhawk135

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If you really want less mff than make the season shorter. A college season is a long grind and a lot of guys are banged up. Last year with the shorter season there were 11 mff’s at big tens this year 26, I don’t think that is a coincidence
 

23 so far

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If you really want less mff than make the season shorter. A college season is a long grind and a lot of guys are banged up. Last year with the shorter season there were 11 mff’s at big tens this year 26, I don’t think that is a coincidence
IMO, it's because it's become an accepted practice. There is your coincidence.
 

93hawkeye

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We just need to trash folkstyle and play by freestyle rules.
So many guys are experts at scrambling and funk counters which result in stalemates. At least if you earn points by push out or momentary back exposure it would still reward the initiative and aggression
 

butchinmi

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One concern with Freestlye rules is you could get a bunch of 30 sec matches in a dual meet you drive 3 hrs to watch. That’s if you are adopting more than just a push out and passivity.

High level freestyle matches are great. But even slight mismatches can be over in a jiffy. Spencer’s average may time next year would be 23 seconds. Takedown, leg lace.
 

lookleft goright

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If you really want less mff than make the season shorter. A college season is a long grind and a lot of guys are banged up. Last year with the shorter season there were 11 mff’s at big tens this year 26, I don’t think that is a coincidence
What difference does it make how long the season is. Most good teams are practicing all year long. They are tearing up their bodies and most injuries happen in practice where they spend well over 99% (83% for some) of their time.
Cael Sanderson was 159 -0. That meant he wrestled almost 40 matches a year. Very few guys will wrestle even 30 matches this year. More matches is not the prob
 

HawkFan1986

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Iowa
What difference does it make how long the season is. Most good teams are practicing all year long. They are tearing up their bodies and most injuries happen in practice where they spend well over 99% (83% for some) of their time.
Cael Sanderson was 159 -0. That meant he wrestled almost 40 matches a year. Very few guys will wrestle even 30 matches this year. More matches is not the prob
Thank you for talking sense!!! The issue is that the advanced scrambling techniques create extra pressure on joints, and as time passes those joints give way. Think of stretching a rubber band, eventually it’s going to break.

I don’t think Iowa ducked anyone, they were clearly injured. I don’t know how you solve the MFf’ing out of a tournament. I guess counting them as a loss and having it affect their seeding is an acceptable path.
 

WxNWHawk

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One concern with Freestlye rules is you could get a bunch of 30 sec matches in a dual meet you drive 3 hrs to watch. That’s if you are adopting more than just a push out and passivity.

High level freestyle matches are great. But even slight mismatches can be over in a jiffy. Spencer’s average may time next year would be 23 seconds. Takedown, leg lace.
I don't think anyone is suggesting going straight freestyle (although I would be in favor), people are just suggesting using their passivity rules for folkstyle stalling.

I drive over 5 hours to Carver and make all home duals, and I'd rather watch a 30 second freestyle match than watch RBY never shoot a TD once and win 1-0, or a match where Amine flees OOB 8 times in a row and makes the match take 10 minutes because of all the restarts. Starocci, same thing. It's maddening to see Kemerer going full speed ahead with the offense and lose because the other guy refused to work until he got in a scramble.

Carl and a whole lot of other coaches have mastered the art of stalling and wrestle their guys to keep matches 2-1 and 3-2. Does it take skill and mastery of ties and scrambling? Absolutely. But it's against the spirit of the rules and the sport itself, IMO.
 

MVPFAN

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If you really want less mff than make the season shorter. A college season is a long grind and a lot of guys are banged up. Last year with the shorter season there were 11 mff’s at big tens this year 26, I don’t think that is a coincidence
They barely wrestle any matches now compared to what they used to. Last season was better than nothing with the COVID stuff but a pretty boring regular season. Guys used to wrestle over 30 matches a year. Young has 24 and the rest are just getting to 20 or less. Besides that they are still practicing no matter what. If anything cut back on the intensity of off season practice.
 
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TNTwrestle

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I don't think anyone is suggesting going straight freestyle (although I would be in favor), people are just suggesting using their passivity rules for folkstyle stalling.

I drive over 5 hours to Carver and make all home duals, and I'd rather watch a 30 second freestyle match than watch RBY never shoot a TD once and win 1-0, or a match where Amine flees OOB 8 times in a row and makes the match take 10 minutes because of all the restarts. Starocci, same thing. It's maddening to see Kemerer going full speed ahead with the offense and lose because the other guy refused to work until he got in a scramble.

Carl and a whole lot of other coaches have mastered the art of stalling and wrestle their guys to keep matches 2-1 and 3-2. Does it take skill and mastery of ties and scrambling? Absolutely. But it's against the spirit of the rules and the sport itself, IMO.
I agree with most of this, but the freestyle passivity rules are not the answer yet. The current passivity rules are still not great. They're better than putting the staller in Par terre because that ends up in a waste of time in many instances with no change in tactics and it doesn't force action on their feet, but the new rule is not well implemented. A large percentage of matches it gets called on the other guy in the second period, seemingly to even things up, but if he gets dinged for not getting the takedown, the first guy (usually the one actually stalling) wins because he got the last score. Not too many guys on the shot clock make real attempts to score because they're not going to force a bad position and give up more points. Besides, they know what I said first will likely happen anyway.
Any rule that makes refs decide who they think is working and who isn't seems to not work out well for Iowa, especially certain wrestlers.
 

WxNWHawk

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I agree with most of this, but the freestyle passivity rules are not the answer yet. The current passivity rules are still not great. They're better than putting the staller in Par terre because that ends up in a waste of time in many instances with no change in tactics and it doesn't force action on their feet, but the new rule is not well implemented. A large percentage of matches it gets called on the other guy in the second period, seemingly to even things up, but if he gets dinged for not getting the takedown, the first guy (usually the one actually stalling) wins because he got the last score. Not too many guys on the shot clock make real attempts to score because they're not going to force a bad position and give up more points. Besides, they know what I said first will likely happen anyway.
Any rule that makes refs decide who they think is working and who isn't seems to not work out well for Iowa, especially certain wrestlers.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding your post, but I don't think there would need to be (or should be) par terre restarts.

The only two rules I'm advocating for are push out points and the shot clock. Any passivity (stalling for folk guys) or pushouts would be a 1 point penalty and a neutral restart. With those rules in place instead of the garbage folk stalling rules we easily win the PSU dual and the B1G's look a lot different.
 

TNTwrestle

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Maybe I'm misunderstanding your post, but I don't think there would need to be (or should be) par terre restarts.

The only two rules I'm advocating for are push out points and the shot clock. Any passivity (stalling for folk guys) or pushouts would be a 1 point penalty and a neutral restart. With those rules in place instead of the garbage folk stalling rules we easily win the PSU dual and the B1G's look a lot different.
No, I'm not advocating for par terre. I do agree a push-out rule would be great, but I don't think a shot clock would work any better than what we have now, for the same reasons that what we have doesn't work; too subjective. It would cause more scoring, but not necessarily more action.
 
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WxNWHawk

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No, I'm not advocating for par terre. I do agree a push-out rule would be great, but I don't think a shot clock would work any better than what we have now, for the same reasons that what we have doesn't work; too subjective. It would cause more scoring, but not necessarily more action.
Gotcha.

I actually like the idea of the shot clock because it awards a penalty point right from the get go unless a guy initiates offense and scores. There's no warning, but its kind of the best of both worlds...you get a chance to score some points or you get hit with passivity. How many matches do we see in folk where a guy knows he has a free pass stalling warning to give up and he literally runs away and turns the last 30 seconds into a game of tag? In freestyle there's none of that, if you get hit with passivity someone is getting awarded points no matter what.
 
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lookleft goright

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I agree with most of this, but the freestyle passivity rules are not the answer yet. The current passivity rules are still not great. They're better than putting the staller in Par terre because that ends up in a waste of time in many instances with no change in tactics and it doesn't force action on their feet, but the new rule is not well implemented. A large percentage of matches it gets called on the other guy in the second period, seemingly to even things up, but if he gets dinged for not getting the takedown, the first guy (usually the one actually stalling) wins because he got the last score. Not too many guys on the shot clock make real attempts to score because they're not going to force a bad position and give up more points. Besides, they know what I said first will likely happen anyway.
Any rule that makes refs decide who they think is working and who isn't seems to not work out well for Iowa, especially certain wrestlers.
How about have a forced stall call if no offensive points are scored, with escapes not being considered an offensive point. Remember, we have 3 periods so someone is going to get pointed for stalling in a 1-1 match. And there are no OT matches. That means either score or someone gets hit for stalling. If the score ends 8-8 in regulation, then you have system in place like freestyle. Last point or biggest point move, or who got hit for stalling, and so on as the criteria to decide the winner.
 
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MarionHawk

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Gotcha.

I actually like the idea of the shot clock because it awards a penalty point right from the get go unless a guy initiates offense and scores. There's no warning, but its kind of the best of both worlds...you get a chance to score some points or you get hit with passivity. How many matches do we see in folk where a guy knows he has a free pass stalling warning to give up and he literally runs away and turns the last 30 seconds into a game of tag? In freestyle there's none of that, if you get hit with passivity someone is getting awarded points no matter what.
A couple things here though, there is a warning for passivity in freestyle before being actually put on the clock. So, officials would really have to start calling it early to make it work. Secondly, I don't hate the change (personally, I like freestyle rules better than folkstyle) but guys that stall would just change how they do it. They'd go hard enough to just not be put on the clock before the 30 second mark, once it hit 29 seconds to go, the stalling would begin because it's too late to be put on the clock.
 
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They barely wrestle any matches now compared to what they used to. Last season was better than nothing with the COVID stuff but a pretty boring regular season. Guys used to wrestle over 30 matches a year. Young has 24 and the rest are just getting to 20 or less. Besides that they are still practicing no matter what. If anything cut back on the intensity of off season practice.
It doesn't matter at this point, but we did lose out on potentially 5 matches when the Midlands was canceled.
I'm torn on your last sentence. Do you cut back on off-season intensity or cut back on in-season intensity and instead focus on conditioning?
I have to wonder how much live go's or hard drills PSU is doing in-season compared to out.
 
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It doesn't matter at this point, but we did lose out on potentially 5 matches when the Midlands was canceled.
I'm torn on your last sentence. Do you cut back on off-season intensity or cut back on in-season intensity and instead focus on conditioning?
I have to wonder how much live go's or hard drills PSU is doing in-season compared to out.
I think the starters weren’t wrestling at Midlands anyways. I think we would’ve had a few more guys at midlands than scuffle but I think the scuffle list was who was going to midlands.
 

IAChief32

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I can't remember the last time an official warned both wrestlers at same time for stalling? This could easily be done in the 1st minute of many matches. At first appearance, it seems to accomplish little but forces action sooner in a match.

I love the double stall call early if guys are 0-0 in the first with no shots like Marinelli and Amine. This instead of obligatory first stall call of the match when the winning guy is running with 7 secs left.
 

WildTurk

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They are going to change the rule about MFF's now. Just watch. Injured wrestlers are going to almost be forced at times to wrestle in order avoid punishment
 
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lookleft goright

HR All-American
Jan 21, 2012
3,500
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I love the double stall call early if guys are 0-0 in the first with no shots like Marinelli and Amine. This instead of obligatory first stall call of the match when the winning guy is running with 7 secs left.
When I officiated and made the double stall call people would tease me. I told them neither guy is doing anything and it is my job to call stalling - not try to figure which guy is stalling more.

I never waited until the last 7 seconds to make a stall call. I always wanted the guys to know that the call with 7 seconds to go would be worth a point. They got hit earlier if I suspected stalling at all.
 

WildTurk

HR All-American
Jul 25, 2011
4,115
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When I officiated and made the double stall call people would tease me. I told them neither guy is doing anything and it is my job to call stalling - not try to figure which guy is stalling more.

I never waited until the last 7 seconds to make a stall call. I always wanted the guys to know that the call with 7 seconds to go would be worth a point. They got hit earlier if I suspected stalling at all.
What happened when a wrestler was up by 1 and started circling/running backwards in the last 20-30 secs to protect the lead? What was the latest you would ding them for stalling?
 

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