Something not talked about enough in Youngkin's win

Nole Lou

HR All-American
Apr 5, 2002
4,254
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It was a good night for Republicans for sure. It portends good things for Republicans in the mid-terms, and Democrats have a lot to do if they want to right the ship. I've been a pretty big cheerleader for Youngkin's "keep Trump at the margins" strategy, as well as being encouraged by the success he had running as just a normal Republican.

However, Youngkin did not face a primary, he was selected by convention and ranked choice voting. The truth is, had he faced a primary, he likely would have finished fourth or fifth. The Republican nominee would have lost by 7-8 points, and would be yelling about antifa and Soros with The Pillow Guy by his/her side right now, and 99% of us wouldn't even know the name Glenn Youngkin.

The Republicans have the template now for competitive races. Youngkin drove the vote out BIG for Republicans all over the state, and out performed Trump in even the Trumpiest counties. But it's going to be extremely difficult to duplicate anywhere there's a primary, where even if only 25% of the vote are Trump devotees, it will easily swing the primary. Primary candidates will have to slurp Trump's nuts in a way that Youngkin didn't have to.

The Republicans are looking at a winning formula that they're totally unable to take advantage of. I'm not sure there's any way over that dilemma.

In a perfect world, last night should be a good night for those longing for a post-Trump politics. The Republican that kept Trump at arms length upset the Democrat who centered Trump in his campaign. If proper lessons were learned, it would be a big step toward getting beyond Trump. But I'm not sure it will mean as much as it should.
 

Old_wrestling_fan

HR Legend
Mar 2, 2009
10,514
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Iowa City
It was a good night for Republicans for sure. It portends good things for Republicans in the mid-terms, and Democrats have a lot to do if they want to right the ship. I've been a pretty big cheerleader for Youngkin's "keep Trump at the margins" strategy, as well as being encouraged by the success he had running as just a normal Republican.

However, Youngkin did not face a primary, he was selected by convention and ranked choice voting. The truth is, had he faced a primary, he likely would have finished fourth or fifth. The Republican nominee would have lost by 7-8 points, and would be yelling about antifa and Soros with The Pillow Guy by his/her side right now, and 99% of us wouldn't even know the name Glenn Youngkin.

The Republicans have the template now for competitive races. Youngkin drove the vote out BIG for Republicans all over the state, and out performed Trump in even the Trumpiest counties. But it's going to be extremely difficult to duplicate anywhere there's a primary, where even if only 25% of the vote are Trump devotees, it will easily swing the primary. Primary candidates will have to slurp Trump's nuts in a way that Youngkin didn't have to.

The Republicans are looking at a winning formula that they're totally unable to take advantage of. I'm not sure there's any way over that dilemma.

In a perfect world, last night should be a good night for those longing for a post-Trump politics. The Republican that kept Trump at arms length upset the Democrat who centered Trump in his campaign. If proper lessons were learned, it would be a big step toward getting beyond Trump. But I'm not sure it will mean as much as it should.

I don't know enough about Youngkin to say anything in particular about him, but I did learn from your post something very, very interesting in my mind. The R's picked him via a different route than the traditional primary...hmmmm. To that I say HOORAY!! And...let's do that again!

Although I would strongly prefer that the voting populace make these choices I will also say that it is clear to me that the primary/caucus processes used by both parties have a sinister way of "promoting" candidates forward that are well outside the margin...at least in my mind.

I still remember how I felt about 6 or 7 years ago now when the small primary that I vote in shared the results with us as a group after we had voted in the Rep primary leading up to the 2016 election. Trump didn't win it as I recall, but he was in the top 2 or 3, out of like 18 or 19 choices, AND his supporters present were VERY charged up on his behalf.

I would have ranked Trump at 18 or 19 on that roster that night...in other words, nowhere near the top and yet there were multiple people there on his behalf that night and they were clearly the most visible supporters of "their" candidate. As those results were shared with us I remember thinking, "OMG, he could actually do this...". And, as we subsequently found out...he did get the nomination. Yikes.

In my mind, while I don't have the end all, be all solution, I think we have to "fix" the nominating process to NOT get the wierdos that we seem to somehow get to then run off against another wierdo to then hold the highest office in the land. So this really intrigues me.
 

Nole Lou

HR All-American
Apr 5, 2002
4,254
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Youngkin is very Romney like. I know hardcore trumpers don’t want to hear it but that’s the type of republican that can win in purple states.

Yes, this exactly. Despite the attempt to paint him as a Klansman in a sweater vest instead of a hood.

But how do Republicans get Romney-like candidates through contested primaries?

Of course, Democrats could also blunt the effectiveness of a candidate like that by moving more toward the center themselves (as far as national messaging), but I'm not seeing much so far that any of them see that as a takeaway.

I do think the Democrats have a real Twitter problem. Twitter is politically is more liberal than the most liberal district in the country. It is quite literally, not real life. But I think it's seriously hurting the Dems two ways...it's the defacto echo chamber for Democrats and political media, and so drives them further to the left than they might normally be. And it also paints the picture of Democrats as extreme by boosting the most radical of them.
 

TJ8869

HR Legend
Gold Member
Dec 7, 2006
46,505
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Correct me if I am wrong but hasn't the governors race in that state been pretty schizophrenic in the last 4 or 5 elections? It seems like neither side controls the vote.
In the 2009 gubernatorial election, Republican Bob McDonnell beat Democrat Creigh Deeds by 17 percentage points. Last night was the first time since then that any Republican candidate won any statewide election in Virginia.
 

FAUlty Gator

HR Legend
Oct 27, 2017
27,924
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It was a good night for Republicans for sure. It portends good things for Republicans in the mid-terms, and Democrats have a lot to do if they want to right the ship. I've been a pretty big cheerleader for Youngkin's "keep Trump at the margins" strategy, as well as being encouraged by the success he had running as just a normal Republican.

However, Youngkin did not face a primary, he was selected by convention and ranked choice voting. The truth is, had he faced a primary, he likely would have finished fourth or fifth. The Republican nominee would have lost by 7-8 points, and would be yelling about antifa and Soros with The Pillow Guy by his/her side right now, and 99% of us wouldn't even know the name Glenn Youngkin.

The Republicans have the template now for competitive races. Youngkin drove the vote out BIG for Republicans all over the state, and out performed Trump in even the Trumpiest counties. But it's going to be extremely difficult to duplicate anywhere there's a primary, where even if only 25% of the vote are Trump devotees, it will easily swing the primary. Primary candidates will have to slurp Trump's nuts in a way that Youngkin didn't have to.

The Republicans are looking at a winning formula that they're totally unable to take advantage of. I'm not sure there's any way over that dilemma.

In a perfect world, last night should be a good night for those longing for a post-Trump politics. The Republican that kept Trump at arms length upset the Democrat who centered Trump in his campaign. If proper lessons were learned, it would be a big step toward getting beyond Trump. But I'm not sure it will mean as much as it should.
The Dems have screwed the pooch. It was so easy to make these next few elections about purging Trumpers from government. But what do they do? They equate “dislike of Trump” to “love of dumb identity politics”.
Look at the dumb shit on ballots across the country. Minneapolis voters had to once again vote against dismantling the police. Of course Omar had to let us know how upsetting that is to her. Austin has lost hundred cops over the last two years and just voted against hiring more.

How dumb is McCaulliffe? He sees thousands of angry parents at school board meetings and responds to that with “Parents should have no say in education.” What an idiot.

What should worry Dems more is New Jersey. That state is a Dem lock and it’s a tie right now. And what makes that bad is the fact that NONE of those CRT, anti-mask, vaccine stuff is there pissing people off.

Moderate voters look at the border and listen to Psaki patronize them with her smarmy “I’m smarter than you” act, see Biden sleeping at a world meeting and watching the VP run away from important issues (that used to be important to her) and are saying, “I guess mean tweets aren’t much worse than this shit.”

Dems are completely out of touch with the middle 66% of the political spectrum. No one gives a shit about what the loudest people in their party are screaming about.
 

Nole Lou

HR All-American
Apr 5, 2002
4,254
9,435
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I don't know enough about Youngkin to say anything in particular about him, but I did learn from your post something very, very interesting in my mind. The R's picked him via a different route than the traditional primary...hmmmm. To that I say HOORAY!! And...let's do that again!

Although I would strongly prefer that the voting populace make these choices I will also say that it is clear to me that the primary/caucus processes used by both parties have a sinister way of "promoting" candidates forward that are well outside the margin...at least in my mind.

I still remember how I felt about 6 or 7 years ago now when the small primary that I vote in shared the results with us as a group after we had voted in the Rep primary leading up to the 2016 election. Trump didn't win it as I recall, but he was in the top 2 or 3, out of like 18 or 19 choices, AND his supporters present were VERY charged up on his behalf.

I would have ranked Trump at 18 or 19 on that roster that night...in other words, nowhere near the top and yet there were multiple people there on his behalf that night and they were clearly the most visible supporters of "their" candidate. As those results were shared with us I remember thinking, "OMG, he could actually do this...". And, as we subsequently found out...he did get the nomination. Yikes.

In my mind, while I don't have the end all, be all solution, I think we have to "fix" the nominating process to NOT get the wierdos that we seem to somehow get to then run off against another wierdo to then hold the highest office in the land. So this really intrigues me.

I 100% agree with you.

And it's not just Trump that's shown it. If you believe that the Democrats have a "too far left" problem, and most honest political observers would say they do (whether it's actual or a perception), it goes directly back to the Bernie Sanders primary campaign against Hillary, the threat of which has pushed the Democrats leftward ever since.

I suspect the system doesn't work anymore because of the way the internet and social media has nationalized every election. State by state primaries don't make that much sense anymore (if they ever did). They're no longer a test of who has deep support, and more importantly, the political machine behind a candidate. Used to be, getting through the primaries was proof of a robust, effective, on the ground operation that could perform in various constituencies around the country, get out the vote, etc. It was kind of a "test of strength" for the general election.

Now, all you need is a Twitter meme, or a viral facebook post from some grandmas. I mean, that's oversimplification, but only so much.

I don't know what the answer is though, like you said. If you drop them entirely and go to smoke filled rooms, then you have Hillary instead of Obama as the nominee in 2008, and she definitely loses. Maybe that's OK because then you get Obama in 2012. I don't know.
 

Greenway4Prez

HR Legend
Jan 10, 2005
22,674
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The Dems have screwed the pooch. It was so easy to make these next few elections about purging Trumpers from government. But what do they do? They equate “dislike of Trump” to “love of dumb identity politics”.
Look at the dumb shit on ballots across the country. Minneapolis voters had to once again vote against dismantling the police. Of course Omar had to let us know how upsetting that is to her. Austin has lost hundred cops over the last two years and just voted against hiring more.

How dumb is McCaulliffe? He sees thousands of angry parents at school board meetings and responds to that with “Parents should have no say in education.” What an idiot.

What should worry Dems more is New Jersey. That state is a Dem lock and it’s a tie right now. And what makes that bad is the fact that NONE of those CRT, anti-mask, vaccine stuff is there pissing people off.

Moderate voters look at the border and listen to Psaki patronize them with her smarmy “I’m smarter than you” act, see Biden sleeping at a world meeting and watching the VP run away from important issues (that used to be important to her) and are saying, “I guess mean tweets aren’t much worse than this shit.”

Dems are completely out of touch with the middle 66% of the political spectrum. No one gives a shit about what the loudest people in their party are screaming about.
For being so smart, they sure have a hard time getting the message.
 

Finance85

HR Legend
Oct 22, 2003
15,400
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I don't think Trump supporters are going to vote for a Dem, even if the GOP candidate has kept Trump on the fringes. I don't think it's necessary for any GOP candidate to pander to Trump or Trump supporters. I know if I was in that position, I wouldn't. Lou does make a good point about the primaries. GOP candidates are going to need to find a way to deal with that.
 
Feb 9, 2013
16,069
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Interesting point, Lou.

The GOP would be much better off without Trump in the party.
The Dems have screwed the pooch. It was so easy to make these next few elections about purging Trumpers from government. But what do they do? They equate “dislike of Trump” to “love of dumb identity politics”.
Look at the dumb shit on ballots across the country. Minneapolis voters had to once again vote against dismantling the police. Of course Omar had to let us know how upsetting that is to her. Austin has lost hundred cops over the last two years and just voted against hiring more.

How dumb is McCaulliffe? He sees thousands of angry parents at school board meetings and responds to that with “Parents should have no say in education.” What an idiot.

What should worry Dems more is New Jersey. That state is a Dem lock and it’s a tie right now. And what makes that bad is the fact that NONE of those CRT, anti-mask, vaccine stuff is there pissing people off.

Moderate voters look at the border and listen to Psaki patronize them with her smarmy “I’m smarter than you” act, see Biden sleeping at a world meeting and watching the VP run away from important issues (that used to be important to her) and are saying, “I guess mean tweets aren’t much worse than this shit.”

Dems are completely out of touch with the middle 66% of the political spectrum. No one gives a shit about what the loudest people in their party are screaming about.
I get the point you’re making, but it’s a lot more than “mean tweets.”
 
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Old_wrestling_fan

HR Legend
Mar 2, 2009
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It was a good night for Republicans for sure. It portends good things for Republicans in the mid-terms, and Democrats have a lot to do if they want to right the ship. I've been a pretty big cheerleader for Youngkin's "keep Trump at the margins" strategy, as well as being encouraged by the success he had running as just a normal Republican.

However, Youngkin did not face a primary, he was selected by convention and ranked choice voting. The truth is, had he faced a primary, he likely would have finished fourth or fifth. The Republican nominee would have lost by 7-8 points, and would be yelling about antifa and Soros with The Pillow Guy by his/her side right now, and 99% of us wouldn't even know the name Glenn Youngkin.

The Republicans have the template now for competitive races. Youngkin drove the vote out BIG for Republicans all over the state, and out performed Trump in even the Trumpiest counties. But it's going to be extremely difficult to duplicate anywhere there's a primary, where even if only 25% of the vote are Trump devotees, it will easily swing the primary. Primary candidates will have to slurp Trump's nuts in a way that Youngkin didn't have to.

The Republicans are looking at a winning formula that they're totally unable to take advantage of. I'm not sure there's any way over that dilemma.

In a perfect world, last night should be a good night for those longing for a post-Trump politics. The Republican that kept Trump at arms length upset the Democrat who centered Trump in his campaign. If proper lessons were learned, it would be a big step toward getting beyond Trump. But I'm not sure it will mean as much as it should.

I don't know enough about Youngkin to say anything in particular about him, but I did learn from your post something very, very interesting in my mind. The R's picked him via a different route than the traditional primary...hmmmm. To that I say HOORAY!! And...let's do that again!

Although I would strongly prefer that the voting populace make these choices I will also say that it is clear to me that the primary/caucus processes used by both parties have a sinister way of "promoting" candidates forward that are well outside the margin...at least in my mind.

I still remember how I felt about 6 or 7 years ago now when the small primary that I vote in shared the results with us as a group after we had voted in the Rep primary leading up to the 2016 election. Trump didn't win it as I recall, but he was in the top 2 or 3, out of like 18 or 19 choices, AND his supporters present were VERY charged up on his behalf.

I would have ranked Trump at 18 or 19 on that roster that night...in other words, nowhere near the top and yet there were multiple people there on his behalf that night and they were clearly the most visible supporters of "their" candidate. As those results were shared with us I remember thinking, "OMG, he could actually do this...". And, as we subsequently found out...he did get the nomination. Yikes.

In my mind, while I don't have the end all, be all solution, I think we have to "fix" the nominating process to NOT get the wierdos that we seem to somehow get to then run off against another
I 100% agree with you.

And it's not just Trump that's shown it. If you believe that the Democrats have a "too far left" problem, and most honest political observers would say they do (whether it's actual or a perception), it goes directly back to the Bernie Sanders primary campaign against Hillary, the threat of which has pushed the Democrats leftward ever since.

I suspect the system doesn't work anymore because of the way the internet and social media has nationalized every election. State by state primaries don't make that much sense anymore (if they ever did). They're no longer a test of who has deep support, and more importantly, the political machine behind a candidate. Used to be, getting through the primaries was proof of a robust, effective, on the ground operation that could perform in various constituencies around the country, get out the vote, etc. It was kind of a "test of strength" for the general election.

Now, all you need is a Twitter meme, or a viral facebook post from some grandmas. I mean, that's oversimplification, but only so much.

I don't know what the answer is though, like you said. If you drop them entirely and go to smoke filled rooms, then you have Hillary instead of Obama as the nominee in 2008, and she definitely loses. Maybe that's OK because then you get Obama in 2012. I don't know.
Bing-freaking-O! ^^

What we REALLY need is smarter, more representative of the entire spectrum, voters in primaries. But...I have to say that I am quite dubious that this is likely to happen.

The "middle", whether it is for the D's or the R's, just aren't as motivated as the extremes...so the extremes show up at the primaries and carry the day and away we go...
 

Nole Lou

HR All-American
Apr 5, 2002
4,254
9,435
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The Dems have screwed the pooch. It was so easy to make these next few elections about purging Trumpers from government. But what do they do? They equate “dislike of Trump” to “love of dumb identity politics”.
Look at the dumb shit on ballots across the country. Minneapolis voters had to once again vote against dismantling the police. Of course Omar had to let us know how upsetting that is to her. Austin has lost hundred cops over the last two years and just voted against hiring more.

How dumb is McCaulliffe? He sees thousands of angry parents at school board meetings and responds to that with “Parents should have no say in education.” What an idiot.

What should worry Dems more is New Jersey. That state is a Dem lock and it’s a tie right now. And what makes that bad is the fact that NONE of those CRT, anti-mask, vaccine stuff is there pissing people off.

Moderate voters look at the border and listen to Psaki patronize them with her smarmy “I’m smarter than you” act, see Biden sleeping at a world meeting and watching the VP run away from important issues (that used to be important to her) and are saying, “I guess mean tweets aren’t much worse than this shit.”

Dems are completely out of touch with the middle 66% of the political spectrum. No one gives a shit about what the loudest people in their party are screaming about.

This is the Democrats' Twitter problem. All these things that alienate moderate voters from Democrats are overwhelmingly popular on Twitter. And Twitter, despite being the poor stepchild of social media networks, is THE platform of political media. If you are in the political media, you literally must win Twitter. It affects your readership, your engagement, your clicks, your paycheck, and your career.

You have the most extreme progressives who are the biggest stars on Twitter, and then you have the political media who literally MUST BOOST those people for their own clout because their readership is generated through Twitter. And then more traditional politicians like say a Biden or a Schumer then must kiss the toes of the radicals in their party, because the entire political ecosystem on the left and "mainstream" political media runs through Twitter. You have the literal equivalent of the most extreme, radical neighborhood in San Francisco or something steering the direction of the party. It's a brutal echo chamber than they can't get out of.

Literally, the only thing keeping them from spinning off into la la land is African American and Hispanic voters, and they're increasingly antagonizing them and allowing the Republicans to start picking them off. And Twitter just keeps saying "go harder left" at every setback.

Sometimes Democrats chastise me on the board for saying that the Democrats have gone too far left, and that the likes of AOC and Corrie Bush and Bernie Sanders are not "the Democrats." And that's fair. But it's increasingly a distinction without a difference. Why else would McAulliff be so tone deaf as to literally campaign down the stretch with Randi Weingarten? Because the Twitter echo chamber has insisted, and mainstream media has largely rubber stamped (because they must), the idea that every parent pissed off about:

1. schools being closed for 18 months and
2. preschoolers having to mask and
3. their kids being told that they must shed their toxic whiteness and
4. that if they don't like it they might be terrorists

Are nothing but a fringe, racist, Trumpist minority.

I mean, you can agree or disagree on any point on the merits, but literally read the room. It's political malpractice, and it's a result of Twitter.
 

Old_wrestling_fan

HR Legend
Mar 2, 2009
10,514
10,144
113
Iowa City
This is the Democrats' Twitter problem. All these things that alienate moderate voters from Democrats are overwhelmingly popular on Twitter. And Twitter, despite being the poor stepchild of social media networks, is THE platform of political media. If you are in the political media, you literally must win Twitter. It affects your readership, your engagement, your clicks, your paycheck, and your career.

You have the most extreme progressives who are the biggest stars on Twitter, and then you have the political media who literally MUST BOOST those people for their own clout because their readership is generated through Twitter. And then more traditional politicians like say a Biden or a Schumer then must kiss the toes of the radicals in their party, because the entire political ecosystem on the left and "mainstream" political media runs through Twitter. You have the literal equivalent of the most extreme, radical neighborhood in San Francisco or something steering the direction of the party. It's a brutal echo chamber than they can't get out of.

Literally, the only thing keeping them from spinning off into la la land is African American and Hispanic voters, and they're increasingly antagonizing them and allowing the Republicans to start picking them off. And Twitter just keeps saying "go harder left" at every setback.

Sometimes Democrats chastise me on the board for saying that the Democrats have gone too far left, and that the likes of AOC and Corrie Bush and Bernie Sanders are not "the Democrats." And that's fair. But it's increasingly a distinction without a difference. Why else would McAulliff be so tone deaf as to literally campaign down the stretch with Randi Weingarten? Because the Twitter echo chamber has insisted, and mainstream media has largely rubber stamped (because they must), the idea that every parent pissed off about:

1. schools being closed for 18 months and
2. preschoolers having to mask and
3. their kids being told that they must shed their toxic whiteness and
4. that if they don't like it they might be terrorists

Are nothing but a fringe, racist, Trumpist minority.

I mean, you can agree or disagree on any point on the merits, but literally read the room. It's political malpractice, and it's a result of Twitter.
Excellent summation. Spot on IMO.
 

MitchLL

HR Legend
Dec 26, 2018
18,955
28,911
113
Youngkin tried to distance himself from Trump in the weeks before the election even though Turd publicly endorsed him.

It will be interesting to see what happens now that he's been elected?

And I agree... what would things look like if the Dems screamed "FRAUD" over the results like the goddamn GOP did in January?
 

Huey Grey

HR Legend
Jan 15, 2013
47,153
65,942
113
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this a call to return to backroom deals to select candidates instead of the voter will? Dems got roasted over the coals for perceived backroom deals to select Hillary over Bernie. Isn't this calling for the same treatment?
 

FAUlty Gator

HR Legend
Oct 27, 2017
27,924
30,794
113
This is the Democrats' Twitter problem. All these things that alienate moderate voters from Democrats are overwhelmingly popular on Twitter. And Twitter, despite being the poor stepchild of social media networks, is THE platform of political media. If you are in the political media, you literally must win Twitter. It affects your readership, your engagement, your clicks, your paycheck, and your career.

You have the most extreme progressives who are the biggest stars on Twitter, and then you have the political media who literally MUST BOOST those people for their own clout because their readership is generated through Twitter. And then more traditional politicians like say a Biden or a Schumer then must kiss the toes of the radicals in their party, because the entire political ecosystem on the left and "mainstream" political media runs through Twitter. You have the literal equivalent of the most extreme, radical neighborhood in San Francisco or something steering the direction of the party. It's a brutal echo chamber than they can't get out of.

Literally, the only thing keeping them from spinning off into la la land is African American and Hispanic voters, and they're increasingly antagonizing them and allowing the Republicans to start picking them off. And Twitter just keeps saying "go harder left" at every setback.

Sometimes Democrats chastise me on the board for saying that the Democrats have gone too far left, and that the likes of AOC and Corrie Bush and Bernie Sanders are not "the Democrats." And that's fair. But it's increasingly a distinction without a difference. Why else would McAulliff be so tone deaf as to literally campaign down the stretch with Randi Weingarten? Because the Twitter echo chamber has insisted, and mainstream media has largely rubber stamped (because they must), the idea that every parent pissed off about:

1. schools being closed for 18 months and
2. preschoolers having to mask and
3. their kids being told that they must shed their toxic whiteness and
4. that if they don't like it they might be terrorists

Are nothing but a fringe, racist, Trumpist minority.

I mean, you can agree or disagree on any point on the merits, but literally read the room. It's political malpractice, and it's a result of Twitter.
Yup. What the outer 20% of each side fail to realize is that the middle 60% do not take themselves too seriously and will vote against the Debbie Downer when that's one of the choices.
 

FAUlty Gator

HR Legend
Oct 27, 2017
27,924
30,794
113
Interesting point, Lou.

The GOP would be much better off without Trump in the party.

I get the point you’re making, but it’s a lot more than “mean tweets.”
OK...and people are still choosing to go back to whatever it is over the current way of things. Why is pretending inflation isn't real and gas prices don't effect the middle class a smart strategy? Because that's all people see this administration doing.
 

Old_wrestling_fan

HR Legend
Mar 2, 2009
10,514
10,144
113
Iowa City
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this a call to return to backroom deals to select candidates instead of the voter will? Dems got roasted over the coals for perceived backroom deals to select Hillary over Bernie. Isn't this calling for the same treatment?
Sort of, I am not sure, maybe, I don't know... :) I get your question though.

At least for me, I am not sure what the answer is and I have already said that I strongly prefer that the voters decide. Buuuuttt...the voters keep screwing this primary thing up and show no signs of NOT screwing it up in the future...so I may be willing to see a shift towards more of a backroom deal thingy. I don't like either scenario.

Probably, for real...I would most favor some sort of change in the primary schedule so things aren't so focused on one or two states at a time. If not a national primary, then a regional primary so it is less possible to have things get jacked up by what amounts to a small percentage, the fringe, if you will, on either side.
 

sadiehawkins

HR All-American
Sep 21, 2008
3,209
3,718
113
my opinion is you can thank Manchin and Sinema for this. not passing the infrastructure and build back better. as Dems piss away helping Americas poor and lower middle-class workers. it makes me wonder why I vote. Biden looks like he s sleep-walking half the time.
 

Nole Lou

HR All-American
Apr 5, 2002
4,254
9,435
113
Couple other things that are interesting to me...

First, political polling has been downright atrocious over several cycles. I know the business a little bit, and I've been dubious about ever effectively getting polling right again. But wow, what a win for political polling in Virginia. A ton of polls, not just 1 or 2 outliers, nailed this race. I think ultimately political polling is a valuable thing, so this is a positive development to me.

Second, a lot of people, including me, have been making a big deal about Youngkin's strategy here, that it was smart and disciplined and maps out a path forward for post-Trump Republicans in competitive races. But it's possible that others and I are just way overthinking this...the truth is, the Biden presidency has been an absolute disaster.

It's been highly obscured because of his fortune in following arguably the worst president in most peoples' lifetimes, but holy shit the Biden administration has been terrible. I'm 50, and it's the second worst in my lifetime by a long shot. I'm not even talking about ideology...they are just terrible at the functions of being president. Their communication is abysmal, their organization sucks, the president is rarely available, when he is, he's alternately incoherent and nasty, they constantly reverse themselves, they're insulting and condescending, they constantly hang their allies out to dry, and can't manage to whip a party that holds the presidency and both houses. He was voted in for a return to normalcy from chaos, and yet the chaos continues.

There's been a decent amount of focus just lately on his presidency being "disappointing" at this point, as the job approval ratings force it to be a subject. But I don't think enough people appreciate the context that this administration is historically bad. His approval ratings are like 5pts lower than any president in history at this point, other than Trump.

I think we might be reading too much into what is simply a reaction to one of the worst presidential administrations in history. As much as Youngkin ran a brilliant campaign, Democrats got wiped out everywhere. If you look at various state and local elections across the country, you had like 4-term assembly members losing to Republicans who spent $250 on a campaign, or didn't even have a website.

I don't know what to make of that, other than maybe all this looks different if Biden can pull shit together over the next year.
 
Feb 9, 2013
16,069
44,368
113
OK...and people are still choosing to go back to whatever it is over the current way of things. Why is pretending inflation isn't real and gas prices don't effect the middle class a smart strategy? Because that's all people see this administration doing.
I’d rather pay $6 a gallon for gas than have Trump in office.
 

Huey Grey

HR Legend
Jan 15, 2013
47,153
65,942
113
Sort of, I am not sure, maybe, I don't know... :) I get your question though.

At least for me, I am not sure what the answer is and I have already said that I strongly prefer that the voters decide. Buuuuttt...the voters keep screwing this primary thing up and show no signs of NOT screwing it up in the future...so I may be willing to see a shift towards more of a backroom deal thingy. I don't like either scenario.

Probably, for real...I would most favor some sort of change in the primary schedule so things aren't so focused on one or two states at a time. If not a national primary, then a regional primary so it is less possible to have things get jacked up by what amounts to a small percentage, the fringe, if you will, on either side.
Btw, if we can rid ourselves of conspiracy theorists and get candidates willing to support reality, I am all for using this tactic of backroom selecting.

But lets be honest. Youngkin isn't an example of this. He is still a conspiracy theorist with his CRT lies, so most definitely doesn't fit the bill of an acceptable candidate.
 

Huey Grey

HR Legend
Jan 15, 2013
47,153
65,942
113
And that's going to be a problem if that's the Democrats' most effective messaging, as it was in Virginia, where unfortunately Trump wasn't running for governor.

The democrats need to pray (to Gaia or whatever) every night that Trump runs in 2024.
Honestly, I don't think it matters if Trump wins, or Abbott, or DeSantis or 90% of the other Republicans. They are all willing to make policy based on Q style lies. All we will get with the other Rs is someone who doesn't shoot off stupid tweets every hour. That's not a very reassuring consolation prize.
 

goldmom

HR Legend
Mar 29, 2002
17,687
20,557
113
And that's going to be a problem if that's the Democrats' most effective messaging, as it was in Virginia, where unfortunately Trump wasn't running for governor.

The democrats need to pray (to Gaia or whatever) every night that Trump runs in 2024.
While the rest of the country prays neither Trump nor Biden runs again.
 
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PurdueClassof02

HR Legend
Sep 30, 2002
17,156
118
63
Was reading an obituary on Tony Downs today and thought this was very timely given our current state of affairs -
Mr. Downs had an abiding commitment to racial justice.

He was a consultant to President Lyndon B. Johnson’s National Advisory Commission on Civil Disorders, which was chaired by Gov. Otto Kerner Jr. of Illinois. The so-called Kerner Commission reported in 1968 that “white society is deeply implicated in the ghetto.”

“White institutions created it, white institutions maintain it, and white society condones it,” the report said.

Mr. Downs wrote a pamphlet in 1970 for the United States Civil Rights Commission which declared that opposition to busing to achieve school integration “is clearly racist in nature” because of the “high proportion of white students in rural areas, suburbs and Catholic big city school systems who have used buses for years to get to school — and still use them — without arousing any such complaints.”

That same year, though, he cautioned a Senate committee that integration could not be achieved until the nation recognized that white resistance was often rational, prompted by fears of increased crime, lowered property values and loss of educational quality. It “is not merely the result of foolish prejudices or immoral selfishness,” he said.
 
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goldmom

HR Legend
Mar 29, 2002
17,687
20,557
113
Couple other things that are interesting to me...

First, political polling has been downright atrocious over several cycles. I know the business a little bit, and I've been dubious about ever effectively getting polling right again. But wow, what a win for political polling in Virginia. A ton of polls, not just 1 or 2 outliers, nailed this race. I think ultimately political polling is a valuable thing, so this is a positive development to me.

Second, a lot of people, including me, have been making a big deal about Youngkin's strategy here, that it was smart and disciplined and maps out a path forward for post-Trump Republicans in competitive races. But it's possible that others and I are just way overthinking this...the truth is, the Biden presidency has been an absolute disaster.

It's been highly obscured because of his fortune in following arguably the worst president in most peoples' lifetimes, but holy shit the Biden administration has been terrible. I'm 50, and it's the second worst in my lifetime by a long shot. I'm not even talking about ideology...they are just terrible at the functions of being president. Their communication is abysmal, their organization sucks, the president is rarely available, when he is, he's alternately incoherent and nasty, they constantly reverse themselves, they're insulting and condescending, they constantly hang their allies out to dry, and can't manage to whip a party that holds the presidency and both houses. He was voted in for a return to normalcy from chaos, and yet the chaos continues.

There's been a decent amount of focus just lately on his presidency being "disappointing" at this point, as the job approval ratings force it to be a subject. But I don't think enough people appreciate the context that this administration is historically bad. His approval ratings are like 5pts lower than any president in history at this point, other than Trump.

I think we might be reading too much into what is simply a reaction to one of the worst presidential administrations in history. As much as Youngkin ran a brilliant campaign, Democrats got wiped out everywhere. If you look at various state and local elections across the country, you had like 4-term assembly members losing to Republicans who spent $250 on a campaign, or didn't even have a website.

I don't know what to make of that, other than maybe all this looks different if Biden can pull shit together over the next year.
You really think Biden can pull it together? He had a chance to govern from the middle and be the moderate guy he's been at times throughout his 50 years in politics. But he's totally controlled by those pulling his strings who've turned out not to be great at good governance either.
I said back in January that I've always thought of him as a deal maker who might pleasantly surprise some Republicans. I have been very disappointed.
 

goldmom

HR Legend
Mar 29, 2002
17,687
20,557
113
Was reading an obituary on Tony Downs today and thought this was very timely given our current state of affairs -
Mr. Downs had an abiding commitment to racial justice.

He was a consultant to President Lyndon B. Johnson’s National Advisory Commission on Civil Disorders, which was chaired by Gov. Otto Kerner Jr. of Illinois. The so-called Kerner Commission reported in 1968 that “white society is deeply implicated in the ghetto.”

“White institutions created it, white institutions maintain it, and white society condones it,” the report said.

Mr. Downs wrote a pamphlet in 1970 for the United States Civil Rights Commission which declared that opposition to busing to achieve school integration “is clearly racist in nature” because of the “high proportion of white students in rural areas, suburbs and Catholic big city school systems who have used buses for years to get to school — and still use them — without arousing any such complaints.”

That same year, though, he cautioned a Senate committee that integration could not be achieved until the nation recognized that white resistance was often rational, prompted by fears of increased crime, lowered property values and loss of educational quality. It “is not merely the result of foolish prejudices or immoral selfishness,” he said.
Were you around then? He was pretty accurate - 50+ years ago.
 
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Nole Lou

HR All-American
Apr 5, 2002
4,254
9,435
113
You really think Biden can pull it together? He had a chance to govern from the middle and be the moderate guy he's been at times throughout his 50 years in politics. But he's totally controlled by those pulling his strings who've turned out not to be great at good governance either.
I said back in January that I've always thought of him as a deal maker who might pleasantly surprise some Republicans. I have been very disappointed.

I personally don't think it's likely. Their problems seem to be structural/temperament. I remember Clinton had a pretty lousy start to his presidency and turned it mostly around. This doesn't feel the same, given that Biden didn't just show up from Arkansas. He's been in DC for 50 years and in the White House for eight already, he shouldn't be trying to find his sea legs a year in.

I don't know whether Biden is just fundamentally not well-equipped for the office, or he's diminished. I usually say "the Biden administration" is terrible rather than "Biden is terrible" because I don't know who is setting the lead. I really wouldn't be surprised either way if you told me the problems start with Biden and his political instincts and strategy are just poor, or if you told me that Biden is barely involved and the chaos is the result of no boss in the room.

If it's the latter, I think there's some small chance that some puppet master behind the scenes can wrest control of the operation and start captaining the ship competently (like Biden's own Dick Cheney). I also expected more from Biden, so I've kind of leaned toward the "he's not up to it anymore, and there's a vacuum of leadership that's exacerbating the mess."

But...if that was the case, I'd have expected someone to emerge as the guiding force by now and start pulling things together behind the scenes. The longer that appears not to happen, the more it looks like to me that Biden does have the wherewithal and the gravitas still that he DOES have his hands on the wheel, and it turns out he just sucks at it.

Of course, maybe the truth is in the middle...that he's still got it together enough to command the ship, but his political instincts and personal power have slipped enough that he's not as effective as he might have been 15 years ago. If it's that, that might be the toughest situation to resolve.
 

Pepperman

HR Legend
Nov 4, 2002
27,704
13,992
113
What Rs should have learned is you can win with two simple things:

1) attack the idiocy of D positions on wokeness
2) you don’t need to seek out Trump approval

Maybe it is time for the functioning adults that vote R to get more involved in crafting the plan for nominating a non-Trump candidate in this next cycle. I’ve never caucused in my life but may do so in this next cycle.
 

Keehawk

HR All-American
May 24, 2011
3,603
2,833
113
Youngkin is very Romney like. I know hardcore trumpers don’t want to hear it but that’s the type of republican that can win in purple states.
And very well deserved if true. We need more Romney like Republicans.
 
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tumorboy

HR Legend
Gold Member
Sep 24, 2002
23,848
27,073
113
How come the Dems weren't able to rig this election? The reason Republicans won was economic. Top issue always is always will be. Youngkin has more economic appeal to get the Suburb vote. Where Trump lost in 2020.
 

Finance85

HR Legend
Oct 22, 2003
15,400
15,650
113
my opinion is you can thank Manchin and Sinema for this. not passing the infrastructure and build back better. as Dems piss away helping Americas poor and lower middle-class workers. it makes me wonder why I vote. Biden looks like he s sleep-walking half the time.
You're right - you probably shouldn't waste your time voting.
 

Finance85

HR Legend
Oct 22, 2003
15,400
15,650
113
What Rs should have learned is you can win with two simple things:

1) attack the idiocy of D positions on wokeness
2) you don’t need to seek out Trump approval

Maybe it is time for the functioning adults that vote R to get more involved in crafting the plan for nominating a non-Trump candidate in this next cycle. I’ve never caucused in my life but may do so in this next cycle.
This ^
 
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