Something we haven’t mentioned here: how parents will respond to the next school shooting after seeing Uvelde’s police incompetence

[FlickShagwell]

From Reddit. Someone asked cops what their feelings were seeing how the situation unfolded Tuesday. Someone posted this:

This department has now created a situation where parents will show up to a future incident armed and not likely to take direction from officers on the scene.

I have to agree. Not like my opinion of cops was sky high before this week, but after seeing their cowardice and indecision on full display, if my toddlers were being shot at, I would be in there at breakneck speed. (Well, what’s left of the 5.1 40 speed with which I prowled the secondary of junior varsity football fields all over the Omaha metro 24 years ago.) Screw waiting for the cops. Even if I can’t rescue my kids like the one lady in Texas, (go read about her if you want to know what actual valor looks like) if I can take some rounds that would otherwise hit my or someone else’s child, I would in a heartbeat. Pretty sure most of us would.

The top comment came from someone claiming to be federal law enforcement:

fedman1776 2h

Federal law enforcement here.
I took a 1-day active shooter training last year. The the theme they kept hammering into us was “Stop the killing, so you can stop the dying.” Meaning, you need to find the shooter as fast as possible to kill or incapacitate him. Nothing else matters before then. They had role players with like fake blood/injury kits on screaming for help and we just stepped around/over them in our way towards the sound of gun fire. Once the shooter is dead, then you sprint back and start evacuating and treating people. Also, you go in alone or grab a couple other responders on your way in. You don’t methodically clear rooms, you don’t “secure” stuff, and you certainly don’t try to do crowd control.
I see a lot of people on reddit say “standard police procedure is (fill in the blank)” and they are usually wrong. However, almost everyone is exactly right on what I’ve seen about active shooter training. And it’s been that way since ****ing columbine! There is no excuse for police leadership in Uvalde to not know this.
Typically I try to not judge people in these scenarios because there so many different factors and challenges that affect your decision making. However in this case (and in Parkland), **** these guys. They should be fired and never work in law enforcement again. A lot of people, some police included, sometimes think that valor is like an everyday thing. It’s definitely not (that’s why we hand out medals for it) but to see officers just stand outside that classroom as children were shot and bleeding to death is awful and unforgivable.

 

[Moral]

I have a feeling that some of these cops that decided to be world famous cowards are going to off themselves in the near future.

I'm not saying it is right or wrong, just a theory I have.

 

[Moral]

If it could be sooner, rather than later when they’ve become depressed drunks abusing the people in their lives, trying to overcompensate and prove that they really are strong, that would be great.

There is that too. These guys are a disgrace to all of the Punisher/BlueLivesMatter stickers out there.

 

[millah_22]

ACAB

 

[bhawk24bob]

If the parents have time to get armed and the cops aren't already in the building, there's a problem

The message to me from this is loud and clear, the police will not put themselves in harm's way unless they are under fire. They aren't firemen, they're not going to run into a burning building out of a sense of obligation to their community. They aren't there to save your kid if it means one of their own might get shot. They will listen from a safe distance as your kid gets shot and make sure you can't get in there to help

 

[FlickShagwell]

The last few days on here:

You know who sucks? Cops.
People don't need guns because the cops will protect them.

SMDH

You probably don’t see how you’re doing the exact same thing, but a lot of us do.

 

[CAhawki]

Im not going to try and begin to monday morning QB a situation like this, but it certainly looks like those in control.. were not. I have a brother that patrolled down town Baghdad, at night. He always told me "You run from a guy with knife, you rush a guy with a gun". It pisses me off that my kids school does these active shooter drills and they hide them in a corner and tell them to be quiet. I told my son, if and that time ever comes, you grab anything you can turn into a weapon, and should that person kick in the door, start throwing shyt. It might not even the odds, but it might buy you some time and it is certainly better than the alternative.

 

[FlickShagwell]

I told my son, if and that time ever comes, you grab anything you can turn into a weapon, and should that person kick in the door, start throwing shyt. It might not even the odds, but it might buy you some time and it is certainly better than the alternative.

I hate that we have to have these conversations with our kids, “some day someone might come into your classroom and shoot you,” but God forbid we tell them “sometimes people have two moms and America isn’t actually fair for everyone.” The latter just isn’t appropriate for school.

 

[Funky Bunch]

Lots of similarities to Parkland

UNPREPARED AND OVERWHELMED

58 minutes of chaos: Two decades after Columbine and five years after Sandy Hook, educators and police still weren’t ready for Parkland.

projects.sun-sentinel.com

 

[bhawk24bob]

You can’t count on them because you never know how you’ll react until someone starts shooting at you.

There have been mass shootings where police have showed tremendous bravery, like Vegas. Then you have cases like Parkland and Uvalde.

They were getting 911 calls from inside the school, from kids needing their help, and the local in charge wouldn't go in because he didn't think they had enough manpower. The only reason anybody went in there was that the federal agents had heard enough and decided on their own to disregard the locals.

This wasn't out of a fear of their officers' reactions, it was out of a fear of getting shot

 

[mnole03]

These guys are a disgrace to all of the Punisher/BlueLivesMatter stickers out there.

I always laugh at people who have Moan Labe stickers on their cars.

Here’s what a guy who would actually charge and disarm an active shooter looks like
(pictured at a robotics competition)

 

[Whatsgoingonwitgyouguys0190]

You can’t count on them because you never know how you’ll react until someone starts shooting at you.

There have been mass shootings where police have showed tremendous bravery, like Vegas. Then you have cases like Parkland and Uvalde.

You can’t count on them because you never know how you’ll react until someone starts shooting at you.

There have been mass shootings where police have showed tremendous bravery, like Vegas. Then you have cases like Parkland and Uvalde.

I’m pretty sure the first police officers on site at vegas froze and didn’t do anything for about half of the shooting.

 

[Old_wrestling_fan]

If the parents have time to get armed and the cops aren't already in the building, there's a problem

The message to me from this is loud and clear, the police will not put themselves in harm's way unless they are under fire. They aren't firemen, they're not going to run into a burning building out of a sense of obligation to their community. They aren't there to save your kid if it means one of their own might get shot. They will listen from a safe distance as your kid gets shot and make sure you can't get in there to help

Yes, with each passing hour and more information and understanding available, it sure does seem like the cops in Uvalde really screwed up. As such, they should be held accountable for their inaction. However, AFAIK, we still don't know if the delay was due to poor command instructions OR general cowardice on behalf of the officers positioned outside the classroom.

But that doesn't mean that all cops, everywhere would do the same. There are many examples of cops elsewhere risking their lives to disarm someone or rescue someone from a dangerous situation, etc.

 

[spiderland]

I have a feeling that some of these cops that decided to be world famous cowards are going to off themselves in the near future.

I'm not saying it is right or wrong, just a theory I have.

Had this same thought yesterday as more details came out. Odds would suggest that there are at least one or two who actually have a conscience. I don’t think the dying is over from this. What an overall f*cking tragedy…

 

[bhawk24bob]

Yes, with each passing hour and more information and understanding available, it sure does seem like the cops in Uvalde really screwed up. As such, they should be held accountable for their inaction. However, AFAIK, we still don't know if the delay was due to poor command instructions OR general cowardice on behalf of the officers positioned outside the classroom.

But that doesn't mean that all cops, everywhere would do the same. There are many examples of cops elsewhere risking their lives to disarm someone or rescue someone from a dangerous situation, etc.

We will never know what happened with certainty down there, we're already on the 12th or so official narrative. They are all liars.

They'd probably still be waiting at this moment for the shooter to run out of ammo before going in there

 

[Moral]

We still don't know if the delay was due to poor command instructions OR general cowardice on behalf of the officers positioned outside the classroom.

I think this one is pretty settled.

 

[pablow]

Yes, with each passing hour and more information and understanding available, it sure does seem like the cops in Uvalde really screwed up. As such, they should be held accountable for their inaction. However, AFAIK, we still don't know if the delay was due to poor command instructions OR general cowardice on behalf of the officers positioned outside the classroom.

But that doesn't mean that all cops, everywhere would do the same. There are many examples of cops elsewhere risking their lives to disarm someone or rescue someone from a dangerous situation, etc.

I think it's important to swiftly address this situation. I'm waiting to see what Greg Abbott and the State of Texas do. If they kick this can down the road they are much of tough talking phonies and any respect I had for Texas will be gone. That state needs to stand up for these kids.

For God's sake, there were children disparately and repeatedly phoning 911 from the room in which the shooting was happening. They were begging for help. The timeline clearly shows that these cops were standing only a few feet away in the hall apparently "waiting for a pass key."

We'll see how tough Texas really is. I can't wait to see what happens because it will tell us all what kind of people we have running this country.

 

[FlickShagwell]

I always laugh at people who have Moan Labe stickers on their cars.

Here’s what a guy who would actually charge and disarm an active shooter looks like
(pictured at a robot competition)

I’m afraid I don’t catch the reference here. I want to though.

 

[tumorboy]

Yes, with each passing hour and more information and understanding available, it sure does seem like the cops in Uvalde really screwed up. As such, they should be held accountable for their inaction. However, AFAIK, we still don't know if the delay was due to poor command instructions OR general cowardice on behalf of the officers positioned outside the classroom.

But that doesn't mean that all cops, everywhere would do the same. There are many examples of cops elsewhere risking their lives to disarm someone or rescue someone from a dangerous situation, etc.

I'm leaning towards both poor command and cowardice. Using I can't disobey the chain of command to do what I know is standard procedure. Racking my tiny brain to come up with a way that they reasonable knew all the kids in that room were dead.

 

[tumorboy]

I think it's important to swiftly address this situation. I'm waiting to see what Greg Abbott and the State of Texas do. If they kick this can down the road they are much of tough talking phonies and any respect I had for Texas will be gone. That state needs to stand up for these kids.

For God's sake, there were children disparately and repeatedly phoning 911 from the room in which the shooting was happening. They were begging for help. The timeline clearly shows that these cops were standing only a few feet away in the hall apparently "waiting for a pass key."

We'll see how tough Texas really is. I can't wait to see what happens because it will tell us all what kind of people we have running this country.

Abbot not going to the NRA convention is interesting. Usually it's all about doubling down with him. There is no way he'll repeal any gun law though.

 

[mnole03]

I’m afraid I don’t catch the reference here. I want to though.

The kid stopped something that could have been catastrophic.

This student died trying to stop the Colorado school shooter

After a classmate pulled out a gun in class, Kendrick Castillo couldn't just stay still. He was surrounded by the friends he considered family and they were all in danger.

amp.cnn.com

 

[markfromj]

The message to me from this is loud and clear, the police will not put themselves in harm's way unless they are under fire.

Yes, because one case in a small Texas town covers all cops.

JFC.

 

[markfromj]

We'll see how tough Texas really is…because it will tell us all what kind of people we have running this country.

?

 

[SiouxCityHawkFan]

Video of several of these instances show police sprinting towards the situation. I wouldn't judge all police based on this. I also wouldn't judge any parent rushing into the school to get their kid out by any means necessary.

 

[millah_22]

I think it's important to swiftly address this situation. I'm waiting to see what Greg Abbott and the State of Texas do. If they kick this can down the road they are much of tough talking phonies and any respect I had for Texas will be gone. That state needs to stand up for these kids.

For God's sake, there were children disparately and repeatedly phoning 911 from the room in which the shooting was happening. They were begging for help. The timeline clearly shows that these cops were standing only a few feet away in the hall apparently "waiting for a pass key."

We'll see how tough Texas really is. I can't wait to see what happens because it will tell us all what kind of people we have running this country.

Spoiler: we won't.

 

[goldmom]

I hope this leads to major changes in cop training as relates to these situations.
Damn...it better.

 

[Old_wrestling_fan]

I think this one is pretty settled.

is it? It seems clear that at least some kids were phoning 911...I have not seen anything though indicating that the cops waiting the hallway were ALSO receiving that information. If they were and they still waited so long...well then that is beyond shameful.

If they weren't being informed of that though and had reason to believe that the shooter was surrounded and there were no kids to be saved, then their waiting perhaps makes a bit more sense. But even then, the waiting seems excessive under the circumstances.

I would just prefer to get actual facts, as opposed to partial understanding of what happened, before making firm and final declarations. Now several days after the mayhem...those facts should be much clearer for all to see, that delay is also very bothersome.

 

[Old_wrestling_fan]

I'm leaning towards both poor command and cowardice. Using I can't disobey the chain of command to do what I know is standard procedure. Racking my tiny brain to come up with a way that they reasonable knew all the kids in that room were dead.

I think your lean is quite reasonable, that's about where I am right now. BUT...we still don't know all of the details. There could be, and there could not be, a valid explanation of the delay.

 

[tumorboy]

is it? It seems clear that at least some kids were phoning 911...I have not seen anything though indicating that the cops waiting the hallway were ALSO receiving that information. If they were and they still waited so long...well then that is beyond shameful.

If they weren't being informed of that though and had reason to believe that the shooter was surrounded and there were no kids to be saved, then their waiting perhaps makes a bit more sense. But even then, the waiting seems excessive under the circumstances.

I would just prefer to get actual facts, as opposed to partial understanding of what happened, before making firm and final declarations. Now several days after the mayhem...those facts should be much clearer for all to see, that delay is also very bothersome.

The only thing I can come up with is the shooting stopped. Thus the Commander deemed it proof of all kids dead. Which in unfathomable.

 

[Old_wrestling_fan]

I hope this leads to major changes in cop training as relates to these situations.
Damn...it better.

It certainly ought to. I think each of us, regardless of where we live, should obligate our LEO agencies to review and update as necessary their emergency response protocol in light of this, and unfortunately other similar, tragedies.

I spoke with a young teacher last night and asked them about their districts training, etc, in this area. She at least had a clear understanding of what to do, and not do, if there were ever an active shooter in her school. This is due to actual training provided to her and all of the staff. Law enforcement agencies everywhere ought to also have a clear protocol, reinforced via training, etc, too. I am sure many do...but it seems as though not all do.

 

[Old_wrestling_fan]

The only thing I can come up with is the shooting stopped. Thus the Commander deemed it proof of all kids dead. Which in unfathomable.

That is a scenario that comes to my mind too. I still think there is plenty of fault to be found in that though...because there certainly could be wounded that could be treated and survive.

BUT...we don't yet know what commands were being given. IMO, we cannot punish police when they are following orders. We can find out who is giving those orders though and remove them from their position, etc.

 

[tumorboy]

That is a scenario that comes to my mind too. I still think there is plenty of fault to be found in that though...because there certainly could be wounded that could be treated and survive.

BUT...we don't yet know what commands were being given. IMO, we cannot punish police when they are following orders. We can find out who is giving those orders though and remove them from their position, etc.

When it's unbelievably crap orders. I'm going to disagree on that. Sometimes u have to say no to authority when it's off the rails. And accept the consequences of doing the right thing. This wasn't a split second decision. They mauled this over for awhile before 4 guys said out of the way.

 

[Hawk_82]

Does anyone remember a year or two ago when law enforcement were deemed racist and bad and we should de fund the police?

One would have to think instances like this would prove that police are necessary. A rational person might also believe that you get what you pay for.

Looks like the average salary for police in uvelde is around 47k. whereas the average overall salary for texas is 57k.

So we put poorly paid and most likely poorly trained people in place to protect the people that hate them. Its no wonder we get bad results.

In addition, too many people want to place the blame on the cops. That is a bs claim. Lets hold the people at the top responsible who are making the laws and making the money rather than the guys who make make below the state average salary and have zero say in the policies and protocols.

 

[tumorboy]

Does anyone remember a year or two ago when law enforcement were deemed racist and bad and we should de fund the police?

One would have to think instances like this would prove that police are necessary. A rational person might also believe that you get what you pay for.

Looks like the average salary for police in uvelde is around 47k. whereas the average overall salary for texas is 57k.

So we put poorly paid and most likely poorly trained people in place to protect the people that hate them. Its no wonder we get bad results.

In addition, too many people want to place the blame on the cops. That is a bs claim. Lets hold the people at the top responsible who are making the laws and making the money rather than the guys who make make below the state average salary and have zero say in the policies and protocols.

It's a small town about 14000. 40 % of the city budget was for LEO's. So going to disagree with your assessment here. For the area it is a decently paid job with real good benefits.

 

[HostelAlfalfaWilcoxKeto]

ACAB

Assigned Cop At Birth?

 

[Hawk_82]

It's a small town about 14000. 40 % of the city budget was for LEO's. So going to disagree with your assessment here. For the area it is a decently paid job with real good benefits.

Similar sized cities in iowa are newton and grimes with police budgets of 3.6 mil and 5.2 mil compared to 4 mil for uvelde

So despite the usage of 40% of the budget, its not like they had a crazy high budget.

 

[tumorboy]

Similar sized cities in iowa are newton and grimes with police budgets of 3.6 mil and 5.2 mil compared to 4 mil for uvelde

So despite the usage of 40% of the budget, its not like they had a crazy high budget.

Wel what is the economic output. Of said town. For instance Pella can punch above their weight significantly for their population. The problem here wasn't lack of funds or training. It was lack of common sense and balls. 19 officers in the hallway. Dont engage and keep the Feds who want to engage out for over 30 mins at least.

They had all the tools they needed. Just lack of duty to act. How much does a military grunt get paid to patrol a street in Baghdad?

 

[NorthernHawkeye]

A large chunk of America has decided to peddle in false narratives and/or vilify the cops. I've repeatedly stated that this country is eventually going to get the police services that they deserve.

Numerous news articles of late shows that no one wants to be a cop. Several places are low on manpower, applications are down and departments are unable to replace those that have left.

 

[tumorboy]

A large chunk of America has decided to peddle in false narratives and/or vilify the cops. I've repeatedly stated that this country is eventually going to get the police services that they deserve.

Numerous news articles of late shows that no one wants to be a cop. Several places are low on manpower, applications are down and departments are unable to replace those that have left.

Sounds similar to teachers.

 

[Formerly Rockymtnole]

Sounds similar to teachers.

Especially ones who prop doors open! (At least according to some posters)