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Speaking of OJ... Any of you midwestern folks believe Steven Avery is guilty?

So I started watching this last night after I saw this thread. It was pretty clear that Avery isn't the brightest bulb. It was pretty clear he got railroaded on the sexual assault charge.

As soon as Halbach disappeared, it was obvious the sheriff's office would be trying to pin it on Avery. I have no idea if he did it, or not.

I'm not very far along yet, but there a few really odd things so far.

First, how did the agencies searching the property manage to get a warrant that disallows the Averys from being on the property for 8 days?

After spending 18 years in prison, why would Avery say anything, to anyone, without a lawyer?

After spending 18 years in prison, why would Avery ever be alone with anyone other than his immediate family, and not have a way to prove an alibi? If I were in his shoes, I'd be extremely paranoid.

How does a car key show up on the bedroom floor after 3 days of searching, and it's found by someone who isn't supposed to be there?

I haven't gotten far enough yet to ponder some of the other points in the thread.
 
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Finance85 said:
So I started watching this last night after I saw this thread. It was pretty clear that Avery isn't the brightest bulb. It was pretty clear he got railroaded on the sexual assault charge.

As soon as Halbach disappeared, it was obvious the sheriff's office would be trying to pin it on Avery. I have no idea if he did it, or not.

I'm not very far along yet, but there a few really odd things so far.

First, how did the agencies searching the property manage to get a warrant that disallows the Averys from being on the property for 8 days?

After spending 18 years in prison, why would Avery say anything, to anyone, without a lawyer?

After spending 18 years in prison, why would Avery ever be alone with anyone other than his immediate family, and not have a way to prove an alibi? If I were in his shoes, I'd be extremely paranoid.

How does a car key show up on the bedroom floor after 3 days of searching, and it's found by someone who isn't supposed to be there?

I haven't gotten far enough yet to ponder some of the other points in the thread.
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Don't ever get accused of committing a serious crime. In our system, if you're not wealthy, your chances are slim.
 
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The idiot nephew was found guilty of killing her in the bedroom with a knife.

Avery was found guilty of killing her in the garage with a gun.

So... she died twice?

And LOL at the idea of these two idiots cleaning up all the DNA. The cops found ZERO blood in the bedroom or garage.
 
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MuscoHawk said:
The idiot nephew was found guilty of killing her in the bedroom with a knife.

Avery was found guilty of killing her in the garage with a gun.

So... she died twice?

And LOL at the idea of these two idiots cleaning up all the DNA. The cops found ZERO blood in the bedroom or garage.
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And, the methods by which she was killed would have produced massive amounts of blood.
 
strummingram said:
I don't understand how LEO's and prosecutors can live with themselves. They're just as much of a criminal as anyone serving time.
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They believe they are always right. My aunt was the top prosecuting fraud attorney in King County WA (Seattle) and I recently asked her if she ever put someone away that might have been innocent. She immediately answered “No.” She didn’t pause a second to ponder the question. She might be right, but I thought it was a bit strange that she didn’t really think about it.
 
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silasstarr said:
They believe they are always right. My aunt was the top prosecuting fraud attorney in King County WA (Seattle) and I recently asked her if she ever put someone away that might have been innocent. She immediately answered “No.” She didn’t pause a second to ponder the question. She might be right, but I thought it was a bit strange that she didn’t really think about it.
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I guess it's a coping mechanism.
 
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If Avery didn't kill the girl, who did?

If someone else killed the girl, how did the cops come across the body, burned or not, and decide to put the body in the salvage yard?
 
Perhaps the best True Crime documentary is the 3 part Paradise Lost series on HBO that chronicles the West Memphis 3 over almost 20 years. West of Memphis is another documentary on the case.
 
Fluffles said:
Perhaps the best True Crime documentary is the 3 part Paradise Lost series on HBO that chronicles the West Memphis 3 over almost 20 years. West of Memphis is another documentary on the case.
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The state of Arkansas tried to kill Damien Echols in that travesty, too.
 
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Finance85 said:
If Avery didn't kill the girl, who did?

If someone else killed the girl, how did the cops come across the body, burned or not, and decide to put the body in the salvage yard?
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Honestly, I think he did it if you look at everything and not just the view of the show.

IMO they probably had enough to get a conviction but had to get stupid and begin planting/altering evidence to try and seal the deal.

Problem is that now so much of the evidence is suspect due to the motive and opportunity that the police gave themselves by not covering conflicts of interest in the case that you start questioning the value of any evidence.

One thing that sticks for me against Avery is how hard it is to burn a body and it would have been extremely high risk for an outsider to come in and burn her.

I think he did it but would not have voted to convict.
 
Finance85 said:
If Avery didn't kill the girl, who did?

If someone else killed the girl, how did the cops come across the body, burned or not, and decide to put the body in the salvage yard?
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The theory later on in part two was that Bobby Dassey did because he was looking up weird shit on the internet.

Bobby testified that he saw Halbach walking towards (or in I can’t remember) Stevens trailer around 2:45 as he was leaving to go meet a friend (Mike) to go hunting. We have no idea if Mike ever corroborates that Bobby was him for the rest of that evening or not.


Bobby does also testify that Steven jokingly admitted to his friend Mike that she’s in the closet and wanted to know if Mike wanted to help cut her up (or something similar). The state presented like this joke took place on the day she went missing. The defense was furious saying SA’s comment was days later during the search and rescue. Either way, no one called friend Mike in as a witness I don’t think.

Why Halbach would voluntarily walk to SA’s trailer (as seen by Bobby) is a huge mystery. It was well known that she was creeped out by SA. SA called her and specifically requested her for that day. He called her cellphone number multiple times that day and used *67 on a couple of those calls.


The entire thing is bizarre. Most one sided documentaries I’ve seen tend to be this way though.

edit: went back and watched. Bobby said that on Nov 3rd (3 days later), SA sounded as if he was joking asked if they (Bobby and Mike) wanted to help get rid of the body.
 
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And, we can thank Bill Clinton for AEDPA and removing the Constitutional Right of Habeas Corpus.

ghost80 said:
Honestly, I think he did it if you look at everything and not just the view of the show.

IMO they probably had enough to get a conviction but had to get stupid and begin planting/altering evidence to try and seal the deal.

Problem is that now so much of the evidence is suspect due to the motive and opportunity that the police gave themselves by not covering conflicts of interest in the case that you start questioning the value of any evidence.

One thing that sticks for me against Avery is how hard it is to burn a body and it would have been extremely high risk for an outsider to come in and burn her.

I think he did it but would not have voted to convict.
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I see absolutely NOTHING that shows that Steven Avery did it... NOTHING!

They convicted these people on a litany of lies.

Seeing things like this make me want to get the fvck out of the USA. Got to New Zealand or something. If you get accused of a serious crime in this country? You're totally screwed unless you have a LOT of money!
 
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IMO the biggest takeaway from this show comes from the nephew.

DO NOT TALK TO THE POLICE and that goes double if you are innocent. If an officer trys to lure you by saying something like, "only the guilty lawyer up" or "if you have nothing to hide it can't hurt to talk" IMMEDIATELY LAWYER UP.
 
ghost80 said:
There is absolute reasonable doubt. Between their incompetence and trying to frame him, the police created a mountain of reasonable doubt.
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Can you imagine that slob perfectly cleaning up a gruesome murder scene.. not a chance in hell!
 
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SotaHawk87 said:
Can you imagine that slob perfectly cleaning up a gruesome murder scene.. not a chance in hell!
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He strikes me as the kind of guy who walks into the bathroom and takes a leak and doesn't flush it......but it's ok because not a drop landed in the toilet.
 
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ghost80 said:
He strikes me as the kind of guy who walks into the bathroom and takes a leak and doesn't flush it......but it's ok because not a drop landed in the toilet.
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He even said, somewhere in the special, he was outside to go pee!

I do think Manitowoc County is "embarrassed" by this family, going way back.
 
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strummingram said:
He even said, somewhere in the special, he was outside to go pee!

I do think Manitowoc County is "embarrassed" by this family, going way back.
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I threw up a little in my mouth when he announced he didn't even own a pair of underwear.
 
The whole story of being raped and murdered and tortured in the bedroom... and all of these details of how SHE responded during all of it... is a complete LIE.

I just wonder how the family of Halbach can see this objectively and be complacent with it.
 
It’s not like Steven Avery is a good guy like he’s portrayed in the documentary. He is a scum bag. But just being a scum bag doesn’t deserve to be sent to prison for 18 years for a crime you didn’t commit or life in prison for a crime you may not have committed.


He was a convicted felon for burglary. He was accused by two other women of rape, not counting a third woman who falsely identified him. One of the women was his cousin, but both women claimed they were threatened with being killed by SA and were in fear of him if they reported it.

He was convicted of pouring gas and oil on the family cat and throwing it on a fire. The documentary touches on it, but SA’s version is that he and friends were just playing a game.

Both his ex wife Lori and ex fiancé Jodi claim he was physically abusive with them. Lori’s sister claims SA beat her and she left for a domestic violence shelter. Jodi later claimed that she only supported SA because she was in fear of him after he told her that he would kill her, her family, and her friend.


Brendan stated he was also scared of SA and that he and his brothers were sexually abused by SA. The documentary touches on SA manipulating Brendan, but not so much on the sexual abuse.

It’s hard to look at bits and pieces of any trial and know for sure he’s innocent or guilty. I’m not saying SA is guilty of killing Teresa Halbach, but I am more than comfortable saying that SA is a scum bag.
 
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@strummingram if you like one sided documentary/murder mysteries, check out The Staircase on Netflix. Way better than Making a Murderer, IMO.

Just do me a favor and look at other info that is left out of that documentary too.
 
iahawks10 said:
It’s not like Steven Avery is a good guy like he’s portrayed in the documentary. He is a scum bag. But just being a scum bag doesn’t deserve to be sent to prison for 18 years for a crime you didn’t commit or life in prison for a crime you may not have committed.


He was a convicted felon for burglary. He was accused by two other women of rape, not counting a third woman who falsely identified him. One of the women was his cousin, but both women claimed they were threatened with being killed by SA and were in fear of him if they reported it.

He was convicted of pouring gas and oil on the family cat and throwing it on a fire. The documentary touches on it, but SA’s version is that he and friends were just playing a game.

Both his ex wife Lori and ex fiancé Jodi claim he was physically abusive with them. Lori’s sister claims SA beat her and she left for a domestic violence shelter. Jodi later claimed that she only supported SA because she was in fear of him after he told her that he would kill her, her family, and her friend.


Brendan stated he was also scared of SA and that he and his brothers were sexually abused by SA. The documentary touches on SA manipulating Brendan, but not so much on the sexual abuse.

It’s hard to look at bits and pieces of any trial and know for sure he’s innocent or guilty. I’m not saying SA is guilty of killing Teresa Halbach, but I am more than comfortable saying that SA is a scum bag.
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Being in a cage with other human beings in cages can contribute to turning a person into a "scum bag."

I get the vibe that the whole family is... ummm... INTERESTING.

They seem like a Wisconsin version of "The Wild and Wonderful Whites of West Virginia."
 
Personally, I think the documentary did a great job at leading you one direction, but I don't necessarily think Avery is innocent. I think his nephew got completely f**ked over, though.
 
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ghost80 said:
I'm not convinced of his innocence but that isn't what matters. They have to prove him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt....and that they failed in my eyes.

Might be hard to understand my point but there is a difference.

The nephew on the other hand was clearly railroaded. It should be criminal what they were allowed to do to him.
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This is how I feel.
 
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Finance85 said:
So I started watching this last night after I saw this thread. It was pretty clear that Avery isn't the brightest bulb. It was pretty clear he got railroaded on the sexual assault charge.

As soon as Halbach disappeared, it was obvious the sheriff's office would be trying to pin it on Avery. I have no idea if he did it, or not.

I'm not very far along yet, but there a few really odd things so far.

First, how did the agencies searching the property manage to get a warrant that disallows the Averys from being on the property for 8 days?

After spending 18 years in prison, why would Avery say anything, to anyone, without a lawyer?

After spending 18 years in prison, why would Avery ever be alone with anyone other than his immediate family, and not have a way to prove an alibi? If I were in his shoes, I'd be extremely paranoid.

How does a car key show up on the bedroom floor after 3 days of searching, and it's found by someone who isn't supposed to be there?

I haven't gotten far enough yet to ponder some of the other points in the thread.
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Because he was literally dumb. Not just dumb, but dumb dumb.
 
millah_22 said:
Because he was literally dumb. Not just dumb, but dumb dumb.
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The whole family is lacking intellectual prowess. They're all low IQ people. But, they don't deserve to be framed by cops or LEO, or Manitowoc Co., or the state of Wisconsin.

Steven Avery is obviously not an alter boy or Eagle Scout. Like I said, they remind me of a lot of rural families that sorta stick together.

After seeing it a second time- all the way through- I noticed there was an evidence exhibit that Kathleen Zellner acquired that showed a list of items taken from either Halbach's bedroom, or purse, or something in order to get her DNA. The list showed:

"72095- Hairbrush and toothbrush
72096- Chapstick and Lip Moisturizer
72097- Maroon Case with vibrator sexual device"

But, Zellner only highlighted the Chapstick in the still photo. You could read the other items, however.

Halbach was having an affair with a married man, she had slept with her roommate, too. And, her ex bf was still sniffing around.

I really wonder what actually happened. The confession Brendan Dassey gave was just a fairy tale.
 
strummingram said:
Guess what? 13 of those 14 things, except the "coming to the door in a towel", were mentioned in the docu-series.
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That documentary was more slanted than the Laura Ingraham show. If you’re too blind to accept that, I question your relationship to UNC. I agree that that there may be some doubt raised on his conviction in criminal law. However, there is zero doubt in my mind that he killed her.
 
NCHawk5 said:
That documentary was more slanted than the Laura Ingraham show. If you’re too blind to accept that, I question your relationship to UNC. I agree that that there may be some doubt raised on his conviction in criminal law. However, there is zero doubt in my mind that he killed her.
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k, thanks

you question my "relationship to UNC?" Well, there's something else you got wrong!
\
ETA:

You sent me a link. I saw the docu-series and I just debunked the list of 14 items in the link you sent. Apparently, you're the one blinded by some kind of certainty that's backed by emotions and not facts.
 
strummingram said:
k, thanks

you question my "relationship to UNC?" Well, there's something else you got wrong!
\
ETA:

You sent me a link. I saw the docu-series and I just debunked the list of 14 items in the link you sent. Apparently, you're the one blinded by some kind of certainty that's backed by emotions and not facts.
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I’m glad.
 
NCHawk5 said:
I’m glad.
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I'll grant you that the series is biased. But, that's sort of the point! Regardless, Zellner and her team have destroyed the prosecution's original case with or without the documentary cameras. Why the hell do you think Manitowoc Co. and the state of Wisconsin keep sand-bagging her? The punitive damages would wind up giving the State of Wisconsin to that family!

Look at the lengths the State of Wisconsin is going to on this thing. It's embarrassing.
 
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strummingram said:
I'll grant you that the series is biased. But, that's sort of the point! Regardless, Zellner and her team have destroyed the prosecution's original case with or without the documentary cameras. Why the hell do you think Manitowoc Co. and the state of Wisconsin keep sand-bagging her? The punitive damages would wind up giving the State of Wisconsin to that family!

Look at the lengths the State of Wisconsin is going to on this thing. It's embarrassing.
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Fair points, I’m not saying there are not odd circumstances surrounding this case. I think there’s a decent chance he should have been found not guilty. However, I am damn near 100% sure he killed her. That’s a decision based on a setting that doesn’t exist in a trial.
 
This is what pissed me off the most. Michael O'Kelly...

interview.jpg
 
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NCHawk5 said:
Fair points, I’m not saying there are not odd circumstances surrounding this case. I think there’s a decent chance he should have been found not guilty. However, I am damn near 100% sure he killed her. That’s a decision based on a setting that doesn’t exist in a trial.
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Make sure you never get on a jury in a murder case.
 
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