"Such NATO Action Near Our Borders Cannot Be Ignored By Our Military"

Nov 28, 2010
78,214
31,371
113
Maryland
There is a difference were not putting missiles in Ukraine
Yet.

Well, not nukes. But we and our main allies are sending surface-to-air and anti-tank missiles. Short range weapons, useful for the upcoming "skirmish."

"Real" missiles will wait for Ukraine to join NATO. And that's why Putin feels he has to get a deal now or make a military move.

Is Putin correct to worry about real missiles in Ukraine once Ukraine joins NATO? Who knows? But I don't doubt for a minute that that's what Putin thinks will happen if he doesn't stop it.
 

HawkRCID

HR All-American
Nov 7, 2018
3,554
6,240
113
Yet.

Well, not nukes. But we and our main allies are sending surface-to-air and anti-tank missiles. Short range weapons, useful for the upcoming "skirmish."

"Real" missiles will wait for Ukraine to join NATO. And that's why Putin feels he has to get a deal now or make a military move.

Is Putin correct to worry about real missiles in Ukraine once Ukraine joins NATO? Who knows? But I don't doubt for a minute that that's what Putin thinks will happen if he doesn't stop it.
Isn’t that sort of a self fulfilling prophecy? Tell your neighbor you’re going to burn their house down….then when them and other neighbors line up to stop you….”I can’t have this kind of aggression on my lot line!!!!”
 
Nov 28, 2010
78,214
31,371
113
Maryland
Putin is asking for guarantees that Ukraine will not be admitted to NATO.

We are refusing to make that commitment, pretending like it isn't up to us.

If we wanted to put an end to this growing crisis, we should offer a limited guarantee. Say no admission to NATO for 10 years.

I have no idea if Putin would accept such a deal, but that gives everybody 10 years to try peaceful solutions.

I don't know when we reach the point of no return. Might be there already.
 
  • Like
Reactions: THE_DEVIL

NDallasRuss

HR Legend
Dec 5, 2002
31,942
16,884
113
they-drew-first-blood-not-me.gif
 
Nov 28, 2010
78,214
31,371
113
Maryland
Isn’t that sort of a self fulfilling prophecy? Tell your neighbor you’re going to burn their house down….then when them and other neighbors line up to stop you….”I can’t have this kind of aggression on my lot line!!!!”
That's the TV version of what's happening. The US TV version, to be more accurate. Not helpful.
 

Hoosierhawkeye

HR Legend
Sep 16, 2008
45,296
36,629
113
39
Yet.

Well, not nukes. But we and our main allies are sending surface-to-air and anti-tank missiles. Short range weapons, useful for the upcoming "skirmish."

"Real" missiles will wait for Ukraine to join NATO. And that's why Putin feels he has to get a deal now or make a military move.

Is Putin correct to worry about real missiles in Ukraine once Ukraine joins NATO? Who knows? But I don't doubt for a minute that that's what Putin thinks will happen if he doesn't stop it.

I really doubt that just by joining NATO means that Ukraine is going to be given nukes.

This is a question of Ukraine's sovereign right to form alliances of their own free will. Putin doesn't want Ukraine to be part of NATO because he wouldn't be able to bully them.
 
  • Like
Reactions: abby97 and ericram

fsu1jreed

HR Legend
Apr 1, 2002
48,031
4,625
113
Putin is asking for guarantees that Ukraine will not be admitted to NATO.

We are refusing to make that commitment, pretending like it isn't up to us.

If we wanted to put an end to this growing crisis, we should offer a limited guarantee. Say no admission to NATO for 10 years.

I have no idea if Putin would accept such a deal, but that gives everybody 10 years to try peaceful solutions.

I don't know when we reach the point of no return. Might be there already.

Sorry, but Fvck that. Putin should not be able to dictate Ukraine decision to join NATO or not. Giving in to Putin now is akin to Chamberlain giving in to Hitler in 1937.
 

seminole97

HR Legend
Jun 14, 2005
15,275
15,463
113
You realize there are people sitting in Luhansk and Donetsk tonight that consider Svoboda drew 'first blood' when they started shooting police and protestors in Kiev and the elected government fled to - pure coincidence - be replaced by the same person the US Ambassador and Victoria Nuland were discussing should become the next leader of Ukraine, and not via the ballot box.

Do we send American troops to force them to submit to governance from Kiev?

I don't think that's what the oath of enlistment is about at all.
 

BelemNole

HR Legend
Mar 29, 2002
30,369
61,992
113
Putin is asking for guarantees that Ukraine will not be admitted to NATO.

We are refusing to make that commitment, pretending like it isn't up to us.

If we wanted to put an end to this growing crisis, we should offer a limited guarantee. Say no admission to NATO for 10 years.

I have no idea if Putin would accept such a deal, but that gives everybody 10 years to try peaceful solutions.

I don't know when we reach the point of no return. Might be there already.
Putin is concerned that his popularity is dropping quickly as the Russian economy is in the crapper and covid is running out of control. So a quick patriotic war will fix things for a while. It has in the past. Make people feel like the west is out to get them, rally around Putin again. Crisis over for ~18 months.
 

86Hawkeye

HR Legend
Gold Member
Dec 12, 2001
40,532
13,682
113
We declared a blockade on Cuba to prevent military stockpiles on our ‘border’, but no one seems to be able to understand how anyone else could think that way.
The US has nuclear weapons on the border with Russia?
 
Mar 11, 2020
16,861
14,896
113
Putin is concerned that his popularity is dropping quickly as the Russian economy is in the crapper and covid is running out of control. So a quick patriotic war will fix things for a while. It has in the past. Make people feel like the west is out to get them, rally around Putin again. Crisis over for ~18 months.
And the same thing could be said in reverse.
 

BioHawk

HR Legend
Sep 21, 2005
37,761
37,153
113
Putin is asking for guarantees that Ukraine will not be admitted to NATO.

We are refusing to make that commitment, pretending like it isn't up to us.

If we wanted to put an end to this growing crisis, we should offer a limited guarantee. Say no admission to NATO for 10 years.

I have no idea if Putin would accept such a deal, but that gives everybody 10 years to try peaceful solutions.

I don't know when we reach the point of no return. Might be there already.
The problem is, that would mean Putin knows he has 10 years to take the Ukraine unopposed. The irony of this is Russia's actions with the Ukraine are what are bringing NATO into the equation. There are resources and grain land in the Ukraine that Russia desperately wants to take control of. But they will act like troop buildups on their Western border are this out of the blue aggression on poor wittle Wussia and why is the West picking on them? It's an effective strategy. They will have 35% of Americans fully supporting them.
 

86Hawkeye

HR Legend
Gold Member
Dec 12, 2001
40,532
13,682
113
Sorry, but Fvck that. Putin should not be able to dictate Ukraine decision to join NATO or not. Giving in to Putin now is akin to Chamberlain giving in to Hitler in 1937.
It’s not about NATO membership for Ukraine. That is a Russian excuse to take over the country.
 
  • Like
Reactions: abby97

BioHawk

HR Legend
Sep 21, 2005
37,761
37,153
113
Biden going to war with Canada would not provide anywhere near the distraction/unification that going to war with Russia would.
I don't know, we're a pretty easy country to pull by the leash. But sure, the difference is Biden didn't make Russia start massing troops on the border. Biden is reacting to what Russia is doing, he's not instigating anything.
 
  • Like
Reactions: sober_teacher
Mar 11, 2020
16,861
14,896
113
I don't know, we're a pretty easy country to pull by the leash. But sure, the difference is Biden didn't make Russia start massing troops on the border. Biden is reacting to what Russia is doing, he's not instigating anything.
They are both looking for an excuse is the gist here.
 

seminole97

HR Legend
Jun 14, 2005
15,275
15,463
113
There are resources and grain land in the Ukraine that Russia desperately wants to take control of.
What resources does Ukraine have that you would consider Russia ‘desperate’ to control?

If the fear is that Putin is bent on some kind of Hitlerian autarky, Russia is already the world’s biggest wheat exporter.

Hitler knew Germany couldn’t feed itself, but what resource does Russia actually lack? They’re resource rich and value added production poor relative to the first world.

Do they want to conquer Donbass so they can take their rightful place in the world as #5 corn producer?
 
Mar 11, 2020
16,861
14,896
113
Yeah, Yeah, Yeah. Good people on both sides. Isn't that your leader's mantra.
That's a weak effort, even by your standards. Read this:

Putin is concerned that his popularity is dropping quickly as the Russian economy is in the crapper and covid is running out of control. So a quick patriotic war will fix things for a while. It has in the past. Make people feel like the west is out to get them, rally around Putin again. Crisis over for ~18 months.


And tell me this couldn't be equally as applicable:

Biden is concerned that his popularity is dropping quickly as the American economy is in the crapper and covid is running out of control. So a quick patriotic war will fix things for a while. It has in the past. Make people feel like the east is out to get them, rally around old glory again. Crisis over for ~18 months.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: SI_NYC

Big Hawk D-Port

HR Heisman
Nov 29, 2004
6,030
6,726
113
That's the (translated) comment from the "Kremlin spokesman," as seen on RT.

What do you make of that?
It seems to me like there is an opportunity to negotiate a peaceful settlement.

If the day comes when we want to mess up Russia, we will kick their a$$ and Putin is aware of this.
 

mooresville hawk

HR All-American
Feb 4, 2004
2,571
4,874
113
I think someone has been watching old episodes of Madam Secretary as I am sure that they covered this in season 2🤣
 

h-hawk

HR Legend
Gold Member
Jan 29, 2002
38,869
28,217
113
Perhaps a more neutral view - https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/russia-fsu/2021-12-28/what-putin-really-wants-ukraine
Putin’s actions suggest that his true goal is not to conquer Ukraine and absorb it into Russia but to change the post-Cold War setup in Europe’s east. That setup left Russia as a rule-taker without much say in European security, which was centered on NATO. If he manages to keep NATO out of Ukraine, Georgia, and Moldova, and U.S. intermediate-range missiles out of Europe, he thinks he could repair part of the damage Russia’s security sustained after the Cold War ended. Not coincidentally, that could serve as a useful record to run on in 2024, when Putin would be up for re-election.
 

NDallasRuss

HR Legend
Dec 5, 2002
31,942
16,884
113
You realize there are people sitting in Luhansk and Donetsk tonight that consider Svoboda drew 'first blood' when they started shooting police and protestors in Kiev and the elected government fled to - pure coincidence - be replaced by the same person the US Ambassador and Victoria Nuland were discussing should become the next leader of Ukraine, and not via the ballot box.

Do we send American troops to force them to submit to governance from Kiev?

I don't think that's what the oath of enlistment is about at all.
I don't think you and I are on different sides on this - at least from what I can tell.

"Do we send American troops to force them to submit to governance from Kiev?"

I don't think we send American troops in there at all, for any reason.

Maybe, if it's reviewed and formally approved, we participate (as would be our role as members) in a combined NATO (or even UN?) force - but that's only as a representative commitment as one of many members, not as the US wanting to insert ourselves in everyone else's conflicts.

"I don't think that's what the oath of enlistment is about at all."

Recognizing that my view is only as that of someone who was never in the military, I think that oath is supposed to be to protect our country/people, not everyone else's.

Maybe I misunderstood your post - if so, I apologize!
 
Nov 28, 2010
78,214
31,371
113
Maryland
Sorry, but Fvck that. Putin should not be able to dictate Ukraine decision to join NATO or not. Giving in to Putin now is akin to Chamberlain giving in to Hitler in 1937.
That's certainly the comparison the hawks and yellow journalists are trying to sell us.

I see you are an early buyer.
 

Latest posts