"Such NATO Action Near Our Borders Cannot Be Ignored By Our Military"

Nov 28, 2010
78,214
31,371
113
Maryland
The problem is, that would mean Putin knows he has 10 years to take the Ukraine unopposed.
What?

It means exactly the opposite.

What it means is that Russia and the West would have to compete for Ukraine peacefully for 10 years. Both will play all the games they can get away with, of course, and try to get "friendly" people in positions of power. But war will be off the table for that time period.

It's like the Iran deal. The deal was keeping Iran from getting nukes for however long the agreement held.

Hawks don't like deals like that.
 

NDallasRuss

HR Legend
Dec 5, 2002
31,942
16,884
113
What would Hillary do?
I think she'd have sent in a sizeable "peacekeeping" force that would have drug us into a 20yr commitment of having troops there.

a-war-hawks-of-a-feather-cause-genocide-together-9460991.png
 

BioHawk

HR Legend
Sep 21, 2005
37,761
37,153
113
What?

It means exactly the opposite.

What it means is that Russia and the West would have to compete for Ukraine peacefully for 10 years. Both will play all the games they can get away with, of course, and try to get "friendly" people in positions of power. But war will be off the table for that time period.

It's like the Iran deal. The deal was keeping Iran from getting nukes for however long the agreement held.

Hawks don't like deals like that.
Yeah, Russia isn't an honest player though so I don't believe that for a second. I'm not a hawk either, but I don't think we can stand by and watch Russia remake its empire.
 

seminole97

HR Legend
Jun 14, 2005
15,275
15,463
113
Yeah, Russia isn't an honest player though so I don't believe that for a second. I'm not a hawk either, but I don't think we can stand by and watch Russia remake its empire.
Who is the honest player?

Iceland?
 

BioHawk

HR Legend
Sep 21, 2005
37,761
37,153
113
Perhaps a more neutral view - https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/russia-fsu/2021-12-28/what-putin-really-wants-ukraine
Putin’s actions suggest that his true goal is not to conquer Ukraine and absorb it into Russia but to change the post-Cold War setup in Europe’s east. That setup left Russia as a rule-taker without much say in European security, which was centered on NATO. If he manages to keep NATO out of Ukraine, Georgia, and Moldova, and U.S. intermediate-range missiles out of Europe, he thinks he could repair part of the damage Russia’s security sustained after the Cold War ended. Not coincidentally, that could serve as a useful record to run on in 2024, when Putin would be up for re-election.
LOL. Like Russia has real elections. Anyone with half a shot of being voted for never makes it to the actual election.

Not to denigrate the other stuff in your post because all of that may very well be true but the idea that anyone else would be allowed to actually challenge Putin in any legitimate way is laughable.
 
Dec 30, 2021
2,011
1,275
113
Putin is not Hitler and Russia is not Germany. I don't think Putin has any desire to rebuild the old USSR he's simply trying to protect the current Russia. The West is still stuck in a Cold War mentality while Russia is simply trying to survive intact.
 

hydro2.0

HR All-American
Jun 25, 2018
3,164
4,348
113
Putin is not Hitler and Russia is not Germany. I don't think Putin has any desire to rebuild the old USSR he's simply trying to protect the current Russia. The West is still stuck in a Cold War mentality while Russia is simply trying to survive intact.

Sooo that means massing troops at the border and potentially rolling in
 

Tom Paris

HR Legend
Gold Member
Oct 1, 2001
41,583
43,682
113
This is a rare topic where the board is split and not by political party.
 

fsu1jreed

HR Legend
Apr 1, 2002
48,030
4,625
113

fezzador

HR All-American
Sep 12, 2006
3,396
3,971
113
it’s about time for a good old fashioned skirmish I do believe. Gonna have to fight Putin eventually, may as well be now.
Putin needs to be tried and imprisoned as a war criminal. Chances are he’ll be slain before that happens. He won’t go peacefully.
 

tumorboy

HR Legend
Gold Member
Sep 24, 2002
23,974
27,235
113
Putin is not Hitler and Russia is not Germany. I don't think Putin has any desire to rebuild the old USSR he's simply trying to protect the current Russia. The West is still stuck in a Cold War mentality while Russia is simply trying to survive intact.
I believe it's more of Putin protecting his status as Czar.
 

sober_teacher

HR Legend
Mar 26, 2007
12,188
14,434
113
What resources does Ukraine have that you would consider Russia ‘desperate’ to control?

If the fear is that Putin is bent on some kind of Hitlerian autarky, Russia is already the world’s biggest wheat exporter.

Hitler knew Germany couldn’t feed itself, but what resource does Russia actually lack? They’re resource rich and value added production poor relative to the first world.

Do they want to conquer Donbass so they can take their rightful place in the world as #5 corn producer?
For one thing, it gives them additional access to the Black Sea. For another, it provides them additional security.

gaining buffer space to protect Mother Russia has been a cornerstone of Russian foreign policy since the Soviet Bloc collapsed and their former Soviet “allies”, shockingly, turned away from them.
 

SSG T

HR Legend
Gold Member
Jul 10, 2002
41,599
56,424
113
I really hope they find a diplomatic solution that keeps Ukraine independent and free from Russian pressure.

That said, screw Putin. If it takes a military build up to force him to back down, so be it. I don't want war, but I think if NATO calls his bluff, Putin will back down. He's an authoritarian, but he isn't stupid.
 

seminole97

HR Legend
Jun 14, 2005
15,275
15,463
113
What exactly is Russia trying to survive and protect itself against?
I know some people say we need to ignore history, but the Serbians are an historic ally of the Russians.
It was to protect the Serbs from Austria that Russia mobilized in WW1, and found itself fighting (and losing to) Germany.

NATO decided, without U.N. authorization, and absent aggression against any member state, to partition Serbia in 1999.

How many unifications, secessions, and partitions have come to the map of Europe since 1989?

How much do you know about South Ossetia?
Willing to send some American kids to die for South Ossetia?

Is the sucker's bet that the 'history' business is over?
 
Dec 30, 2021
2,011
1,275
113
I know some people say we need to ignore history, but the Serbians are an historic ally of the Russians.
It was to protect the Serbs from Austria that Russia mobilized in WW1, and found itself fighting (and losing to) Germany.

NATO decided, without U.N. authorization, and absent aggression against any member state, to partition Serbia in 1999.

How many unifications, secessions, and partitions have come to the map of Europe since 1989?

How much do you know about South Ossetia?
Willing to send some American kids to die for South Ossetia?

Is the sucker's bet that the 'history' business is over?
The French and British partitioning the Ottoman Empire after WWI has led to a century of bloodshed on the sands of the Middle East.
 

seminole97

HR Legend
Jun 14, 2005
15,275
15,463
113
The French and British partitioning the Ottoman Empire after WWI has led to a century of bloodshed on the sands of the Middle East.
The Ottoman's reach into Europe included Greece over 80 years before that.
Serbia, Romania and Bulgaria were still part of that empire 40 years before WW1.
In the years just prior to WW1 launching the Europeans snatched up the rest of the Ottoman empire in Europe.
The French and British were just (poorly, albeit deliberately) divvying the rest of the carcass.
 
Dec 30, 2021
2,011
1,275
113
The Ottoman's reach into Europe included Greece over 80 years before that.
Serbia, Romania and Bulgaria were still part of that empire 40 years before WW1.
In the years just prior to WW1 launching the Europeans snatched up the rest of the Ottoman empire in Europe.
The French and British were just (poorly, albeit deliberately) divvying the rest of the carcass.
I understand what they were doing but their methodology was piss poor. They didn't taking into account ethnic and cultural divisions within the empire and drew arbitrary lines on a map. This left traditional allies in opposing countries and traditional enemies in the same country. That is was allowed - almost required - strong men to come in and force compliance, they had to to maintain control.
 
May 26, 2007
10,492
5,961
113
Oh, and FTR, I'm am not surprised in the least that many on the right are parroting Russian talking points.
Is understanding White Rage an asset or liability when fighting these Slavs?

Does it change when we include their troops from Central and Eastern Asia?
 
Last edited:
Nov 28, 2010
78,214
31,371
113
Maryland
This is a rare topic where the board is split and not by political party.
Good point.

Rs used to be reliable anti-Russian hawks; Dems more often soft on Russia - albeit with plenty of hawks in their ranks, too (like Hillary, for example).

When did this get scrambled? Did it start with the fall of the USSR? Or with Trump? Both?
 
  • Like
Reactions: HawkRCID

seminole97

HR Legend
Jun 14, 2005
15,275
15,463
113
Good point.

Rs used to be reliable anti-Russian hawks; Dems more often soft on Russia - albeit with plenty of hawks in their ranks, too (like Hillary, for example).

When did this get scrambled? Did it start with the fall of the USSR? Or with Trump? Both?
Neocons went home.

link
 
Dec 30, 2021
2,011
1,275
113
Russia asked for assurances that NATO would not expand to it's borders, put armaments within striking distance of its cities. NATO said no. What exactly is Russia supposed to do here? They're being surrounded and isolated by potentially hostile forces.
 

mnole03

HR Legend
Mar 20, 2005
20,584
53,015
113
Russia asked for assurances that NATO would not expand to it's borders, put armaments within striking distance of its cities. NATO said no. What exactly is Russia supposed to do here? They're being surrounded and isolated by potentially hostile forces.
Russia just annexed part of the Ukraine. No shit the Ukraine wants to join NATO.

If you declare war against countries because they’re taking defensive action, you’re an aggressor.
 

Urohawk

HR Heisman
Sep 30, 2001
6,787
7,950
113
Russia asked for assurances that NATO would not expand to it's borders, put armaments within striking distance of its cities. NATO said no. What exactly is Russia supposed to do here? They're being surrounded and isolated by potentially hostile forces.
I don't know, try to be a global community member and more importantly a world leader? If you were discussing what should Putin do then yes, I would agree. What should Russia do, not this. Do you think Britain doesn't have armaments that could easily strike France. Germany could invade Norway. Should these countries live in fear of one another? No, because they're not ruled by power hungry despots. They try to live in a better world.
 
  • Like
Reactions: HawkRCID
Dec 30, 2021
2,011
1,275
113
Russia just annexed part of the Ukraine. No shit the Ukraine wants to join NATO.

If you declare war against countries because they’re taking defensive action, you’re an aggressor.
Crimea voted to join Russia. They did this after the U.S. and its allies were instrumental in a coup that overthrew the rightly elected Ukrainian government. We then installed a U.S. puppet regime. It's not the first time the U.S. has done this either. Quick question, who was in a position of power when all this went down in 2013 and 2014?
 

lucas80

HR King
Gold Member
Jan 30, 2008
90,977
113,073
113
Putin is concerned that his popularity is dropping quickly as the Russian economy is in the crapper and covid is running out of control. So a quick patriotic war will fix things for a while. It has in the past. Make people feel like the west is out to get them, rally around Putin again. Crisis over for ~18 months.
This is my big concern. Starting a war makes no sense. Threatening a war does. If Putin sends in soldiers it shows you how desperate he is.
 

mnole03

HR Legend
Mar 20, 2005
20,584
53,015
113
Crimea voted to join Russia. They did this after the U.S. and its allies were instrumental in a coup that overthrew the rightly elected Ukrainian government. We then installed a U.S. puppet regime. It's not the first time the U.S. has done this either. Quick question, who was in a position of power when all this went down in 2013 and 2014?
So Russia would allow regions to vote on whether to remain part of Russia?
 

lucas80

HR King
Gold Member
Jan 30, 2008
90,977
113,073
113
Crimea voted to join Russia. They did this after the U.S. and its allies were instrumental in a coup that overthrew the rightly elected Ukrainian government. We then installed a U.S. puppet regime. It's not the first time the U.S. has done this either. Quick question, who was in a position of power when all this went down in 2013 and 2014?
Sweet new handle, Bro.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BelemNole

Latest posts