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Supreme Court Appears Ready to Let Trump End DACA Program

cigaretteman

HR King
May 29, 2001
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Deplorable:

The Supreme Court’s conservative majority on Tuesday appeared ready to side with the Trump administration in its efforts to shut down a program protecting about 700,000 young immigrants known as “Dreamers.”

The court’s liberal justices probed the administration’s justifications for ending the program, expressing skepticism about its rationales for doing so. But other justices indicated that they would not second-guess the administration’s reasoning and, in any event, considered its explanations sufficient.

Still, there was agreement among the justices that the young people who signed up for Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals, or DACA, were sympathetic and that they and their families, schools and employers had relied on it in good faith.

The arguments in the case, one of the most important of the term, addressed presidential power over immigration, a signature issue for President Trump and a divisive one, especially as it has played out in the debate over DACA, a program that has broad, bipartisan support.

Continue reading the main story
The program, announced by President Barack Obama in 2012, allows young people brought to the United States as children to apply for a temporary status that shields them from deportation and allows them to work. The status lasts for two years and is renewable, but it does not provide a path to citizenship.

In the past, Mr. Trump has praised the program’s goals and suggested he wanted to preserve it. “Does anybody really want to throw out good, educated and accomplished young people who have jobs, some serving in the military?” he asked in a 2017 Twitter post.

But as the court took up its future on Tuesday, Mr. Trump struck a different tone. “Many of the people in DACA, no longer very young, are far from ‘angels,’” he wrote on Twitter. “Some are very tough, hardened criminals.”

In fact, the program has strict requirements. To be eligible for DACA status, applicants had to show that they had committed no serious crimes, had arrived in the United States before they turned 16 and were no older than 30, had lived in the United States for at least the previous five years, and were a high school graduate or a veteran.

Justice Sonia Sotomayor said the DACA recipients were justified in relying on Mr. Trump’s earlier statements, which she paraphrased. “They were safe under him,” she said, “and he would find a way to keep them here.”

The roots of the decision to shut down the program figured in the argument, as the justices parsed two sets of rationales from successive heads of the Department of Homeland Security.

After contentious debates among his aides, Mr. Trump announced in September 2017 that he would wind down the program. He gave only a single reason for doing so, saying that creating or maintaining the program was beyond the legal power of any president.

“I do not favor punishing children,” Mr. Trump said in his formal announcement of the termination. But, he added, “the program is unlawful and unconstitutional and cannot be successfully defended in court.”

That decision was reflected in bare-bones memo from Elaine C. Duke, then the acting secretary of homeland security. She offered no policy reasons for the move.

Theodore B. Olson, a lawyer for the DACA recipients, said the memo allowed the administration to avoid taking political heat on the issue. “The administration did not want to own the decision,” he said.

Solicitor General Noel J. Francisco, arguing for the administration, disagreed. “We own it,” he said.

Mr. Francisco pointed to a second memo, issued last year by Kirstjen Nielsen, the homeland security secretary at the time. It mostly relied on the earlier rationales in Ms. Duke’s memo, but added one more, about the importance of projecting a message “that leaves no doubt regarding the clear, consistent and transparent enforcement of the immigration laws against all classes and categories of aliens.”

Continue reading the main story
That policy justification, Mr. Francisco said, was sufficient even if the administration was mistaken in its legal rationale.

Mr. Olson disagreed. “You have to have a rational explanation,” he said. “It must make sense. It must be contemporaneous.”

Michael J. Mongan, California’s solicitor general, who argued in favor of the program, called Ms. Nielsen’s new rationale “boilerplate.”

The Trump administration’s argument that the program was unlawful was based on a 2015 ruling from the United States Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit, in New Orleans. But that decision concerned a different, much larger program. Lower courts have ruled that the two programs differed in important ways, undermining the administration’s legal analysis.

Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg said on Tuesday that it was impossible to disentangle the administration’s legal rationale from its later policy justification. “We don’t know how she would respond,” Justice Ginsburg said of Ms. Nielsen, “if there were a clear recognition that there is nothing illegal about DACA.”

The justices have examined the Trump administration’s justifications for its initiatives on immigration in other cases.

Continue reading the main story
In 2018, the court upheld Mr. Trump’s order limiting travel from several predominantly Muslim nations, relying on the justifications set out in a presidential proclamation and refusing to consider statements from Mr. Trump concerning his desire to impose a “Muslim ban.”

In June, however, the Supreme Court rejected the administration’s rationale for adding a citizenship question to the census. “The sole stated reason” for adding the question, Chief Justice John G. Roberts Jr. wrote for the majority, “seems to have been contrived.”

In a Supreme Court brief, the administration said the DACA cases, including the Department of Homeland Security v. Regents of the University of California, No. 18-587, were different.

“The courts below erred,” the brief said, “in second-guessing D.H.S.’s entirely rational judgment to stop facilitating ongoing violations of federal law on a massive scale.”

On Tuesday, the justices frequently referred to the DACA recipients themselves. “I hear a lot of facts, sympathetic facts, that you’ve put out there, and they speak to all of us,” Justice Neil M. Gorsuch told Mr. Olson.

But Justice Gorsuch said he had doubts about whether it was the role of the Supreme Court to review the administration’s decision to terminate the program.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/12/...tion=click&module=Top Stories&pgtype=Homepage
 
I still cant get beyond the basic argument here. Obama used a EO to start the program...Trump should be able to use a EO to end it.

To be fair on the legal level I agree with this.

It's an evil thing to do but it makes sense that anything that can be started via executive order can be stopped via executive order unless congress somehow makes the executive order into law.

Dems should run the military photos of every veteran that ends up being deported on TV.
 
I dont know why the article doesnt touch on this more but detrimental reliance was discussed extensively.
Because people don't know what that is? I mean, I do, because I am a genius level poster. Many people are saying this.
It's easier to say Obama was wrong, and you can't use an EO, versus look at the extensive nuts and bolts behind the process of creating DACA.
 
I don't know how Roberts will go on this one. I think it's clear that he is the swing vote. If DACA is blown up, it'll be a s*** show, and some very sympathetic people will be rounded up, and tearfully kicked out of the US to countries they know very little about. And, it will be a PR disaster. Breadbags does not want to have to explain why she's failed to work on immigration reform, and veterans are being booted from the US. She will run and hide from questions about why people who have cleared lots of hurdles are being removed from the US.
 
Of course, If Trump had shown any leadership, they could have found a way to pass something for DACA. GOP in congress never wanted to stick their necks out on anything without knowing which way Trump would fall on it.

Several hundred thousand people, who did nothing wrong save for being brought here by their parents as minors, will be at risk of deportation because Trump ended a program without any thought for the consequences.

Then again, he does that a lot.
 
I don't know how Roberts will go on this one. I think it's clear that he is the swing vote. If DACA is blown up, it'll be a s*** show, and some very sympathetic people will be rounded up, and tearfully kicked out of the US to countries they know very little about. And, it will be a PR disaster. Breadbags does not want to have to explain why she's failed to work on immigration reform, and veterans are being booted from the US. She will run and hide from questions about why people who have cleared lots of hurdles are being removed from the US.

Trump will just gaslight them all as criminals despite the fact that to get DACA status you have to pass an fbi criminal record check.
 
DACA was never intended to be something "permanent"; it was an EO "patch" to let Congress codify status and find some way to legalize or gain a path to citizenship for these individuals.

Unfortunately, the GOP in Congress doesn't want to govern.

We certainly could have come up with a version of "Green Cards" for the kids who fell within the DACA definitions for temporary/semi-permanent residence until they could complete a formal application for full citizenship. Pretty sure the Dems would be onboard with that, but The Party Of No won't have it.

Now, we'll have all the car loans, apartments, student loans, other financial aspects of their residency literally go 'poof'; that means economic hardships for lots of businesses which have relied on them, legally. And, yes, many are nurses or in healthcare, so we can expect some areas to deal with even worse shortages of help....
 
Trump will just gaslight them all as criminals despite the fact that to get DACA status you have to pass an fbi criminal record check.
He did that this morning via a tweet. The fact that it is a blatant lie doesn't matter. There is no bottom to Trump, and his supporters are willing to believe whatever lie he spews out.
 
DACA was never intended to be something "permanent"; it was an EO "patch" to let Congress codify status and find some way to legalize or gain a path to citizenship for these individuals.

Unfortunately, the GOP in Congress doesn't want to govern.

We certainly could have come up with a version of "Green Cards" for the kids who fell within the DACA definitions for temporary/semi-permanent residence until they could complete a formal application for full citizenship. Pretty sure the Dems would be onboard with that, but The Party Of No won't have it.

Now, we'll have all the car loans, apartments, student loans, other financial aspects of their residency literally go 'poof'; that means economic hardships for lots of businesses which have relied on them, legally. And, yes, many are nurses or in healthcare, so we can expect some areas to deal with even worse shortages of help....
But, a bi-partisan group of senators had a deal worked out that would have passed into law, and Trump shot it down, after waffling around for a bit.
 
There was a time when this country did what was "right" by people. Sending people back to a country they never lived in or really know is not right, moral or just. Trump and his Republussians are bringing in an era I hope doesn't last long.
 
Again, way too much power in the Executive Branch. Governing by EO and using the EPA, DOL etc to run the country is getting out of hand.

Congress needs to stand up and do its job.

This is not a dictatorship, but it is getting that way and BOTH sides are to blame.
 
There was a time when this country did what was "right" by people. Sending people back to a country they never lived in or really know is not right, moral or just. Trump and his Republussians are bringing in an era I hope doesn't last long.
When you have a policy driven by demonizing brown people you can't tap the brakes. You have to run right over everyone.
 
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Sending people back to a country they never lived in or really know is not right, moral or just.

It's also not economically sound.

Lots and lots of local businesses get hurt by this, when car loans don't get paid; student loans don't get repaid (and never will when you ship someone out of the country); rents and mortgages don't get paid; and small biz loses a significant portion of its functional workforce.

Tack this on with the ongoing tariffs damage, and we're really heading for some economic fallout soon....
 
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Deplorable:

The Supreme Court’s conservative majority on Tuesday appeared ready to side with the Trump administration in its efforts to shut down a program protecting about 700,000 young immigrants known as “Dreamers.”

The court’s liberal justices probed the administration’s justifications for ending the program, expressing skepticism about its rationales for doing so. But other justices indicated that they would not second-guess the administration’s reasoning and, in any event, considered its explanations sufficient.

Still, there was agreement among the justices that the young people who signed up for Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals, or DACA, were sympathetic and that they and their families, schools and employers had relied on it in good faith.

The arguments in the case, one of the most important of the term, addressed presidential power over immigration, a signature issue for President Trump and a divisive one, especially as it has played out in the debate over DACA, a program that has broad, bipartisan support.

Continue reading the main story
The program, announced by President Barack Obama in 2012, allows young people brought to the United States as children to apply for a temporary status that shields them from deportation and allows them to work. The status lasts for two years and is renewable, but it does not provide a path to citizenship.

In the past, Mr. Trump has praised the program’s goals and suggested he wanted to preserve it. “Does anybody really want to throw out good, educated and accomplished young people who have jobs, some serving in the military?” he asked in a 2017 Twitter post.

But as the court took up its future on Tuesday, Mr. Trump struck a different tone. “Many of the people in DACA, no longer very young, are far from ‘angels,’” he wrote on Twitter. “Some are very tough, hardened criminals.”

In fact, the program has strict requirements. To be eligible for DACA status, applicants had to show that they had committed no serious crimes, had arrived in the United States before they turned 16 and were no older than 30, had lived in the United States for at least the previous five years, and were a high school graduate or a veteran.

Justice Sonia Sotomayor said the DACA recipients were justified in relying on Mr. Trump’s earlier statements, which she paraphrased. “They were safe under him,” she said, “and he would find a way to keep them here.”

The roots of the decision to shut down the program figured in the argument, as the justices parsed two sets of rationales from successive heads of the Department of Homeland Security.

After contentious debates among his aides, Mr. Trump announced in September 2017 that he would wind down the program. He gave only a single reason for doing so, saying that creating or maintaining the program was beyond the legal power of any president.

“I do not favor punishing children,” Mr. Trump said in his formal announcement of the termination. But, he added, “the program is unlawful and unconstitutional and cannot be successfully defended in court.”

That decision was reflected in bare-bones memo from Elaine C. Duke, then the acting secretary of homeland security. She offered no policy reasons for the move.

Theodore B. Olson, a lawyer for the DACA recipients, said the memo allowed the administration to avoid taking political heat on the issue. “The administration did not want to own the decision,” he said.

Solicitor General Noel J. Francisco, arguing for the administration, disagreed. “We own it,” he said.

Mr. Francisco pointed to a second memo, issued last year by Kirstjen Nielsen, the homeland security secretary at the time. It mostly relied on the earlier rationales in Ms. Duke’s memo, but added one more, about the importance of projecting a message “that leaves no doubt regarding the clear, consistent and transparent enforcement of the immigration laws against all classes and categories of aliens.”

Continue reading the main story
That policy justification, Mr. Francisco said, was sufficient even if the administration was mistaken in its legal rationale.

Mr. Olson disagreed. “You have to have a rational explanation,” he said. “It must make sense. It must be contemporaneous.”

Michael J. Mongan, California’s solicitor general, who argued in favor of the program, called Ms. Nielsen’s new rationale “boilerplate.”

The Trump administration’s argument that the program was unlawful was based on a 2015 ruling from the United States Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit, in New Orleans. But that decision concerned a different, much larger program. Lower courts have ruled that the two programs differed in important ways, undermining the administration’s legal analysis.

Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg said on Tuesday that it was impossible to disentangle the administration’s legal rationale from its later policy justification. “We don’t know how she would respond,” Justice Ginsburg said of Ms. Nielsen, “if there were a clear recognition that there is nothing illegal about DACA.”

The justices have examined the Trump administration’s justifications for its initiatives on immigration in other cases.

Continue reading the main story
In 2018, the court upheld Mr. Trump’s order limiting travel from several predominantly Muslim nations, relying on the justifications set out in a presidential proclamation and refusing to consider statements from Mr. Trump concerning his desire to impose a “Muslim ban.”

In June, however, the Supreme Court rejected the administration’s rationale for adding a citizenship question to the census. “The sole stated reason” for adding the question, Chief Justice John G. Roberts Jr. wrote for the majority, “seems to have been contrived.”

In a Supreme Court brief, the administration said the DACA cases, including the Department of Homeland Security v. Regents of the University of California, No. 18-587, were different.

“The courts below erred,” the brief said, “in second-guessing D.H.S.’s entirely rational judgment to stop facilitating ongoing violations of federal law on a massive scale.”

On Tuesday, the justices frequently referred to the DACA recipients themselves. “I hear a lot of facts, sympathetic facts, that you’ve put out there, and they speak to all of us,” Justice Neil M. Gorsuch told Mr. Olson.

But Justice Gorsuch said he had doubts about whether it was the role of the Supreme Court to review the administration’s decision to terminate the program.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/12/...tion=click&module=Top Stories&pgtype=Homepage
if Obama could start it why can't Trump end It?
 
I really don’t know what grounds the SCOTUS has to not allow it to be repealed. As someone else mentioned, it was passed by EO— not that it necessarily matters, but it seems allowing it one way but not the other is like having your cake and eating it too. I’m sure Sotomayor will be against it, but from a legal standpoint I have to assume even the most ardent liberal judges will either allow it or find the most minuscule issue in order to delay or reject.

I think I’ve just talked myself into the latter and am now expecting a 5-4 vote one way or the other.
 
Deplorable:

I thought you took issue with not respecting the constitution. It is up to congress and the president to get a law passed. It isn't on the Supreme Court to fix the mess. Obama himself knew it wasn't constitutional.

That being said, I think the Supreme Court keeps DACA around.
 
I really don’t know what grounds the SCOTUS has to not allow it to be repealed. As someone else mentioned, it was passed by EO— not that it necessarily matters, but it seems allowing it one way but not the other is like having your cake and eating it too. I’m sure Sotomayor will be against it, but from a legal standpoint I have to assume even the most ardent liberal judges will either allow it or find the most minuscule issue in order to delay or reject.

I think I’ve just talked myself into the latter and am now expecting a 5-4 vote one way or the other.

it’s the legal justification that matters. Obama was able to justify his on fairly solid ground. Trump changed his mind multiple times.
 
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it’s the legal justification that matters. Obama was able to justify his on fairly solid ground. Trump changed his mind multiple times.

Really? His own words made it pretty clear that he didn't have the legal authority to do so--until he did so. And what does Trump changing his mind, assuming that he did because I don't know what you are referring to there, have to do with his legal authority to rescind an executive order of another president?
 
The fact of the matter is Trump probably does have (and should have) the right to end Obama’s EO here.
That does not deal with the problem though. And the reported solution to the great majority of those affected, is far worse than the problem itself. The solution in magnitude (deporting everyone...including those who were born and have lived in the US all their lives) would rival that of FDR’s internment of Japanese citizens in the West Coast back in WW2 days.
 
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Really? His own words made it pretty clear that he didn't have the legal authority to do so--until he did so. And what does Trump changing his mind, assuming that he did because I don't know what you are referring to there, have to do with his legal authority to rescind an executive order of another president?

because intent matters in the eyes of the law. And go back and read what Obama actually said as well as the EO. Then look at Trump’s. It’s pretty specious actually.

if all that ever matters was the act itself, we would never need to justify anything. Look for example at Trump’s Muslim ban. It took him 3 tries with the courts to find a legal justification that worked, in part due to his prior public statements about it.
 
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I still cant get beyond the basic argument here. Obama used a EO to start the program...Trump should be able to use a EO to end it.

He would have been able to do that, but he didn’t. He ended it by saying that Obama’s actions were unconstitutional. That he had no choice but to end the program. The plaintiffs are arguing that the EO starting the program was in fact constitutional.

Basically Trump was too much of a wuss to end the program with his own order.
 
Again, way too much power in the Executive Branch. Governing by EO and using the EPA, DOL etc to run the country is getting out of hand.

Congress needs to stand up and do its job.

This is not a dictatorship, but it is getting that way and BOTH sides are to blame.

Just a point, you can’t run the government without executive order. You just can’t. Now, it’s been abused, but every government will issue executive orders.
 
because intent matters in the eyes of the law. And go back and read what Obama actually said as well as the EO. Then look at Trump’s. It’s pretty specious actually.

if all that ever matters was the act itself, we would never need to justify anything. Look for example at Trump’s Muslim ban. It took him 3 tries with the courts to find a legal justification that worked, in part due to his prior public statements about it.

I haven't looked at the EO, but I watched the video in this thread to see President Obama's own words. President Obama has a history of publicly acknowledging that certain presidential actions are unconstitutional, and then later taking those very actions. If you don't look at it through a partisan lens, it is just a well documented fact. Trump can go f himself, but the problem with his "Muslim ban" (shows you are looking at things from a purely partisan perspective) wasn't his wording--it was a couple of partisan judges. He had the constitutional authority to implement a travel ban.
 
From a legal perspective, I'm not sure why it's OK for Obama to create an executive order that essentially contradicts immigration law, but it's not OK for Trump to create an EO to rescind the previous EO.

The law is what it is. All of those harping about Trump needing to be impeached because he broke the law need to find some consistency. Either you are for the rule of law or you aren't. If you think it's OK to pick and choose then you are no better than Trump.
 
Trump could end it yesterday with an EO. He doesn't want the optics...he wants the cover of a court ruling. It really is that simple.

There was going to have to be a court ruling either way,... The possibility of DACA ending might actually force congress to get off their ass regarding immigration reform...
 
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I haven't looked at the EO, but I watched the video in this thread to see President Obama's own words. President Obama has a history of publicly acknowledging that certain presidential actions are unconstitutional, and then later taking those very actions. If you don't look at it through a partisan lens, it is just a well documented fact. Trump can go f himself, but the problem with his "Muslim ban" (shows you are looking at things from a purely partisan perspective) wasn't his wording--it was a couple of partisan judges. He had the constitutional authority to implement a travel ban.

Right, but part of the problem with the travel ban, was that he kept referring to it as a muslim ban (his words, not mine). A travel ban on specific countries is legal, a travel ban on specific ethnic/religious groups is not.

Obama was actually quite clear that the only reason he ultimately went the EO route for DACA was that it became clear that Congress wouldn't/couldn't act. Correct me if I'm wrong, I vaguely remember Obama and Boehner reaching some sort of compromise on DACA kids, but it got torpedoed by hardliners in both parties. Do I remember that right?
 
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Right, but part of the problem with the travel ban, was that he kept referring to it as a muslim ban (his words, not mine). A travel ban on specific countries is legal, a travel ban on specific ethnic/religious groups is not.

Obama was actually quite clear that the only reason he ultimately went the EO route for DACA was that it became clear that Congress wouldn't/couldn't act. Correct me if I'm wrong, I vaguely remember Obama and Boehner reaching some sort of compromise on DACA kids, but it got torpedoed by hardliners in both parties. Do I remember that right?

You remember the Obama EO correctly. He used an EO to essentially create a law that contradicts current immigration law.
 
There was going to have to be a court ruling either way,... The possibility of DACA ending might actually force congress to get off their ass regarding immigration reform...
Sure...taking Trump to court with the claim he can't end it with an EO. That might be a hard sell, though, if you think Obama was within his rights to start it. Refusing to use the EO route was calculated to make the courts "responsible" for ending the program.
 
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Sure...taking Trump to court with the claim he can't end it with an EO. That might be a hard sell, though, if you think Obama was within his rights to start it. Refusing to use the EO route was calculated to make the courts "responsible" for ending the program.

Either way, the possibility of DACA ending might become the whip that moves congress...
 
Right, but part of the problem with the travel ban, was that he kept referring to it as a muslim ban (his words, not mine). A travel ban on specific countries is legal, a travel ban on specific ethnic/religious groups is not.

Obama was actually quite clear that the only reason he ultimately went the EO route for DACA was that it became clear that Congress wouldn't/couldn't act. Correct me if I'm wrong, I vaguely remember Obama and Boehner reaching some sort of compromise on DACA kids, but it got torpedoed by hardliners in both parties. Do I remember that right?

Your memory is probably correct. Better than mine anyway.

The president is an idiot. As far as I know, he called for a muslim ban when running for office, but I can't recall him using that phrase with reference to the travel ban. Maybe I'm wrong. Again, he is an idiot. Regardless, having a travel ban that isn't specific to a religion and applied to only a small number of countries where terrorism is an issue is a far cry from a ban on all muslims, no? I mean there are a lot of muslims outside of those countries that were not impacted, right? Opposition to the ban was purely political. Had President Obama instituted the exact same ban, there would have been no opposition and district courts wouldn't have ruled against it.

Obama can be clear as to the reason for his EO being congressional inaction, but congressional inaction does not change the constitutionality of the EO in the first place. President Obama himself acknowledged that he didn't have the authority to do so, and then he did it anyway. The constitution does not grant congress the authority to pass laws unless they are unwilling or unable to do so.
 
Right, but part of the problem with the travel ban, was that he kept referring to it as a muslim ban (his words, not mine). A travel ban on specific countries is legal, a travel ban on specific ethnic/religious groups is not.

Obama was actually quite clear that the only reason he ultimately went the EO route for DACA was that it became clear that Congress wouldn't/couldn't act. Correct me if I'm wrong, I vaguely remember Obama and Boehner reaching some sort of compromise on DACA kids, but it got torpedoed by hardliners in both parties. Do I remember that right?

FUNFACT: Trump's original EO for the "Muslim Ban" was fully retracted - as it WAS unconstitutional. It was something like version 2.0 or 3.0 we ended up with, which was substantially different from his first EO.
 
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