The new question ... implementing the new/old O

[cmhawks99]

Super huge long drawn out exasperated sigh here...,,,

Wadley, as has been said on this board by 30 different people in 50 different threads was injured and The staff and he have both said as much

Something else I want to adress here, this is just a pure logic thing doesn't have nothing to do with football knowledge or like or hatred of the football staff or anything....

We all think our staff are a bunch of knuckleheads and idiots and predictable but ask yourself if that's the case how the hell do they ever win any games at all.....

And Interestingly enough they oftentimes beat the better competition and seem to underperform against the weaker competition. So apparently Big Jim ain't as good a coach as KF?

It's a consistency and execution issue boys period!!!!

 

[DodgerHawki]

Something else I want to adress here, this is just a pure logic thing doesn't have nothing to do with football knowledge or like or hatred of the football staff or anything....

We all think our staff are a bunch of knuckleheads and idiots and predictable but ask yourself if that's the case how the hell do they ever win any games at all.....

And Interestingly enough they oftentimes beat the better competition and seem to underperform against the weaker competition. So apparently Big Jim ain't as good a coach as KF?

It's a consistency and execution issue boys period!!!!

I would generally agree. What Iowa's style under KF allows Iowa to do is to be in a position to punch above its weight by turning games against a more talented team into a physical battle of execution. That gives Iowa a shot at beating Michigan, a team that based on NFL talent on the roster Iowa had no business beating. It also means that Iowa is more susceptible to getting beat by "inferior" opponents, whatever that means.

 

[cmhawks99]

I would generally agree. What Iowa's style under KF allows Iowa to do is to be in a position to punch above its weight by turning games against a more talented team into a physical battle of execution. That gives Iowa a shot at beating Michigan, a team that based on NFL talent on the roster Iowa had no business beating. It also means that Iowa is more susceptible to getting beat by "inferior" opponents, whatever that means.

Maybe but if that's the case then you have to give them credit for how good they've actually been and something else of note over the last 20 years Iowa has put in a similar number of people in the NFL as Michigan. I actually do concur Iowa and KF do have a consistency issue I'm not really sure why but it doesn't have much to do with scheme or playcalling

 

[C/Seahawk]

Maybe but if that's the case then you have to give them credit for how good they've actually been and something else of note over the last 20 years Iowa has put in a similar number of people in the NFL as Michigan. I actually do concur Iowa and KF do have a consistency issue I'm not really sure why but it doesn't have much to do with scheme or playcalling

I think a lot of the 'consistency issue' has quite a bit to do with our razor thin margin for error. KF has to surround himself with more effective recruiters and hopefully the two new hires are a step in the right direction.

 

[cmhawks99]

that is possible but I would propose to you our real issue has been quarterback and wide receiver. You compare the rest of our positions & there NFL status I think you'll be pretty surprised to find out we consistently turn out NFL talent and we consistently have them two and three deep at some level of development.

So lets drill down on that.....a couple years ago Big Carl had a really up-and-down season but there he is in the NFL & I think potentially Jaleel is the best D-tackle we've ever had but I think he had some consistency issues so it's a real thing but it's a real thing for everyone!

 

[ghostOfHomer777]

that is possible but I would propose to you our real issue has been quarterback and wide receiver. You compare the rest of our positions & there NFL status I think you'll be pretty surprised to find out we consistently turn out NFL talent and we consistently have them two and three deep at some level of development.

So lets drill down on that.....a couple years ago Big Carl had a really up-and-down season but there he is in the NFL & I think potentially Jaleel is the best D-tackle we've ever had but I think he had some consistency issues so it's a real thing but it's a real thing for everyone!

Jaleel might go down as one of the DTs out of Iowa with possibly the best NFL career ... however, as a college player, he's definitely not the best DT we've had. I'm not throwing the young man under the bus - I think that he was a fine Hawk ... and I was happy with his contributions for the black and gold. However, Iowa has had a long line of really excellent DTs.

 

[ghostOfHomer777]

I think a lot of the 'consistency issue' has quite a bit to do with our razor thin margin for error. KF has to surround himself with more effective recruiters and hopefully the two new hires are a step in the right direction.

Both Kennedy and White had prior experience being recruiting coordinators at prior jobs. Both had pretty decent recruiting resumes. I don't think Iowa is as ineffective or poor at recruiting as many Iowa fans seem to think.

However, part of the problem is that Iowa will not blatantly lie to recruits like some other programs do. Iowa doesn't guarantee playing time. Iowa doesn't say that they think that the kid will be an instant starter when they hit the roster. They will tell a kid that they love his potential. They will tell the kid that in their past experience, kids with their same attributes have gone on to have NFL careers. However, at the end of the day, they tell the recruits that their future at Iowa will still ultimately be in their own hands - it will be up to them to put in the hard work required to improve.

Also, as probably part of what Ferentz views as being part of Iowa's football culture ... Iowa isn't going to really go after guys who are the high-maintenance recruits. Those sorts of players might often have ridiculous talent ... but if you really need your ego stroked that much ... that often reflects on a guy having a rather fragile character.

Contrary to what many Iowa fans seem to think ... Iowa does go after A LOT of the high octane recruits. They send out mailers to those guys. They try to initiate contact ... and hope to develop a discourse and a relationship. However, if the person isn't showing interest ... eventually you need to drop bait. Otherwise you're not utilizing your resources very well.

When does Iowa fare better with the more highly regarded recruits? Well, since Iowa doesn't have a new staff ... we cannot sell "hope" like a brand new coaching staff could. Nor can we sell styles of play that seemingly make ESPN types gush .... we CAN sell that we have a style of play that translates to the NFL. Ultimately, apart from our success developing players into NFL-ready contributors ... Iowa's best chance to attract "big name" recruits is when we're on the national radar due to WINNING. Most of the big name recruits want to win, they want to go to the NFL, and they want to be lavished with attention and/or exposure. Iowa can give those recruits what they want ... when we're winning.

Not coincidentally ... that likely contributed to why we had the commitments of Benjamin and Calloway for a time. Our winning got their attention ... our ability to land a recruit like Epenesa got their attention ... they viewed our program as potentially being back on the rise. But then two assistant coaches mischaracterized things to Eno ... and that lead him to take visits that he likely thought would still be okay. Unfortunately, that led to Eno's offer getting rescinded ... and then we contended with the subsequent backlash.

Not coincidentally ... that likely contributed to why Iowa had the big recruiting windfall in 2005. That was after Iowa's string of success from '02 to '04 ... we had even more to sell those kids then.

 

[cmhawks99]

Dead on homer & people that have never sold anything, recruited anything don't understand the concept and they never are going to and I'm not saying that to be mean but they have no real life experience so they think it's easy. As far as your comment about Jaleel yes what I mean is I think potentially he has the attributes that he could be a dominant NFL defensive tackle with that said you could say guys like Matt Kroul, Mitch King and I'm mad that I can't remember the name of the kid that just graduated a couple years ago were way more consistent performers for us and there in lies the trouble.

And as far as defense goes our safety play has been wildly inconsistent over the last five or six years since Sash & Greenwood graduated and as far as wide receivers go our fans do not understand dropped passes KILL!!

 

[C/Seahawk]

Both Kennedy and White had prior experience being recruiting coordinators at prior jobs. Both had pretty decent recruiting resumes. I don't think Iowa is as ineffective or poor at recruiting as many Iowa fans seem to think.

However, part of the problem is that Iowa will not blatantly lie to recruits like some other programs do. Iowa doesn't guarantee playing time. Iowa doesn't say that they think that the kid will be an instant starter when they hit the roster. They will tell a kid that they love his potential. They will tell the kid that in their past experience, kids with their same attributes have gone on to have NFL careers. However, at the end of the day, they tell the recruits that their future at Iowa will still ultimately be in their own hands - it will be up to them to put in the hard work required to improve.

Also, as probably part of what Ferentz views as being part of Iowa's football culture ... Iowa isn't going to really go after guys who are the high-maintenance recruits. Those sorts of players might often have ridiculous talent ... but if you really need your ego stroked that much ... that often reflects on a guy having a rather fragile character.

Contrary to what many Iowa fans seem to think ... Iowa does go after A LOT of the high octane recruits. They send out mailers to those guys. They try to initiate contact ... and hope to develop a discourse and a relationship. However, if the person isn't showing interest ... eventually you need to drop bait. Otherwise you're not utilizing your resources very well.

When does Iowa fare better with the more highly regarded recruits? Well, since Iowa doesn't have a new staff ... we cannot sell "hope" like a brand new coaching staff could. Nor can we sell styles of play that seemingly make ESPN types gush .... we CAN sell that we have a style of play that translates to the NFL. Ultimately, apart from our success developing players into NFL-ready contributors ... Iowa's best chance to attract "big name" recruits is when we're on the national radar due to WINNING. Most of the big name recruits want to win, they want to go to the NFL, and they want to be lavished with attention and/or exposure. Iowa can give those recruits what they want ... when we're winning.

Not coincidentally ... that likely contributed to why we had the commitments of Benjamin and Calloway for a time. Our winning got their attention ... our ability to land a recruit like Epenesa got their attention ... they viewed our program as potentially being back on the rise. But then two assistant coaches mischaracterized things to Eno ... and that lead him to take visits that he likely thought would still be okay. Unfortunately, that led to Eno's offer getting rescinded ... and then we contended with the subsequent backlash.

Not coincidentally ... that likely contributed to why Iowa had the big recruiting windfall in 2005. That was after Iowa's string of success from '02 to '04 ... we had even more to sell those kids then.

Please name the recruits that were brought in by Kennedy and Davis during their time at Iowa?

 

[cmhawks99]

Please name the recruits that were brought in by Kennedy and Davis during their time at Iowa?

That's a fair question and I'll wager homer can answer it but let me say this.... I don't know and I don't really care but I'll also say I have a sneaking suspicion that the guys You mentioned are probably the aforementioned coaches that mislead, albeit inadvertently, Eno?!

 

[C/Seahawk]

That's a fair question and I'll wager homer can answer it but let me say this.... I don't know and I don't really care but I'll also say I have a sneaking suspicion that the guys You mentioned are probably the aforementioned coaches that mislead, albeit inadvertently, Eno?!

I'll wager homer will struggle to answer that question and if he does provide one, it won't be a compelling argument

 

[cmhawks99]

I'll wager homer will struggle to answer that question and if he does provide one, it won't be a compelling argument

Then you have confirmation bias and there's no need to ask the question at all! You've already admitted upfront there's nothing he can say that will change your mind!

 

[C/Seahawk]

Then you have confirmation bias and there's no need to ask the question at all! You've already admitted upfront there's nothing he can say that will change your mind!

Just a second there professor. I suggested homer would struggle to name recruits brought in by Kennedy and Davis, that would support the argument they were effective recruiters at Iowa as homer suggested. I have an opinion, and I'm willing to listen to differing opinions, but like I said, id wager homer will struggle to provide a compelling argument to support his opinion. By the way, can u help homer out and name recruits brought in by Davis and or Kennedy that would suggest they were good recruiters while at Iowa?

 

[bagdropper]

Super huge long drawn out exasperated sigh here...,,,

Wadley, as has been said on this board by 30 different people in 50 different threads was injured and The staff and he have both said as much

I never knew that. It's not like I read every thread. Thanks for the info.

 

[cidhawkeye]

Sorry for joining late, want to make sure I caught up. Consistency and execution are it, period(is that an absolute?) but momentum is important, can't make many adjustments during the week, efficiency is big, confirmation bias is important and when used by the opposing viewpoint is bad and ignorant but when used to support the viewpoint of the person mentioning it ignoring it is valid and that 4 games should give all of us perspective. Oh and long td runs that get called back are a bad thing. Did I catch up? Oh and yes you can make adjustments to game plans from week to week, schemes do matter, knowing which side of the field the play is going to is huge and happened against Iowa quite a bit, it has been shown on this board. The fun part will be watching the people think that the offense looks the same this fall when it reality it will be quite different.

 

[ghostOfHomer777]

Please name the recruits that were brought in by Kennedy and Davis during their time at Iowa?

I specifically mentioned Kennedy and White - not Davis. Davis was treated somewhat similarly to Norm ... he was expected to provide a deep knowledge base for the O ... and he also had plenty of connections among high school coaches in Texas (although he wasn't expected to travel much, in the recruiting effort). The only primary recruits I know who he helped to recruit were our QBs ... and he was more explicitly responsible for us landing Shimonek in '13 and Mansell in '17.

White:
If you look in 2014 ... "on paper" he had quite a recruiting haul:
Taylor, Joly, Harris, Outsey, Truitt, Kidd, Ellis (assist with Kennedy)
2015: Falconer
In 2016 ... again "on paper" he had a decent recruiting haul:
Simon, Young, Taylor, Darby (didn't sign because Iowa didn't like his grades enough - but White brought the kid all the way "home")

Also, throughout the time ... White helped out in recruiting RBs. During that time we landed Markel Smith (didn't qualify due to grades), Akinribade (landed over Michigan, among others), and Kelly-Martin. Also, we almost landed Higdon (late flip to Michigan) and Eno Benjamin (White and Kennedy's own actions seemingly contributed to Eno's 'ship being pulled).

Given the number of players Iowa could sign and the positions of "need" that Iowa had - White most certainly pulled way more than his recruiting weight.

Kennedy:
2014: Jackson, Ellis (assist with White)
In 2015 ... "on paper" he had a pretty decent haul:
Garbutt, J. Smith, Ogwo, Jinning
2017: Hankins
... and, were it not for the missteps about letting Eno take visits ... Kennedy was in line for a huge Texas haul in '17 (Hankins + Benjamin, Holmes, Corrales ... I doubt that Calloway would have stuck with Iowa regardless).

As in the case of White, Kennedy also assisted with WR recruiting. Thus, there are plenty of WRs who he assisted in recruiting too.

Kennedy's recruiting pull was "okay" ... however, quite frankly, Morgan and White dwarfed the recruiting hauls of just about everybody.

However, if you actually read my prior post ... their explicit recruiting hauls at Iowa weren't the point. BOTH White and Kennedy had decent recruiting resumes before even getting to Iowa. Few recruiters at Iowa will hold a candle to Reese Morgan's contributions.

As I see it, the primary recruiting "upgrades" that we'll see from here on out are:

1. Replacing Greg Davis with Brian is a big recruiting improvement ... because, for all intents and purposes, Greg was "dead weight" in the recruiting game.
2. A younger staff may potentially have the advantage of relating to the players a little better.
3. Having a little more diversity on the staff might be perceived as a positive by many recruits.
4. Copeland and Polasek arguably understand the sort of culture at Iowa better than White and Kennedy. Thus, they won't try to undercut the sense of identity of the program. While this yet remains to be seen ... but they might have a better eye for developmental talent ... or a better eye for talent who "fits" Iowa's culture. This could potentially help the Hawks with regard to player retention.

 

[ghostOfHomer777]

Just a second there professor. I suggested homer would struggle to name recruits brought in by Kennedy and Davis, that would support the argument they were effective recruiters at Iowa as homer suggested. I have an opinion, and I'm willing to listen to differing opinions, but like I said, id wager homer will struggle to provide a compelling argument to support his opinion. By the way, can u help homer out and name recruits brought in by Davis and or Kennedy that would suggest they were good recruiters while at Iowa?

I claimed that Iowa's recruiting was okay - in the post you were referring to, I never specifically spoke about Kennedy's or White's specific contributions. My primary premise was that White and Kennedy had perfectly decent recruiting resumes ... both even having been recruiting coordinators before (which helps in knowing the recruiting game ... and helps in terms of recruiting contacts).

After that, I went on to suggest that the way that Ferentz asks his staff to represent the program ... while it helps to serve as a "filter" to select the sort of players that he wants in the program ... it potentially contributes to Iowa missing on some recruits that Iowa fans might figuratively salivate over.

From there, I emphasized the main recruiting point at Iowa ... when Iowa wins ... our recruiting profile rises. When we appear to be middling to the rest of the country ... our profile returns to the shadows. I've lived outside of Iowa my entire adult life (much to my chagrin - I miss Iowa desperately) ... and I can honestly assert that much of the country has a rather prejudiced view of our fine state. Regardless of what others say ... that is why Ferentz is right when he emphasizes how important it is to get recruits to visit Iowa City. For many who visit ... it can be an eye-opening experience. For the same reason, that is why Minnesota may actually hold some advantages over Iowa in recruiting ... because the very fact that they offer an urban experience ... that will be more attractive to plenty of recruits. How else can you rationalize why Minnesota has been far more effective than Iowa at recruiting Georgia? (and potentially the urban south, in general)

 

[C/Seahawk]

I specifically mentioned Kennedy and White - not Davis. Davis was treated somewhat similarly to Norm ... he was expected to provide a deep knowledge base for the O ... and he also had plenty of connections among high school coaches in Texas (although he wasn't expected to travel much, in the recruiting effort). The only primary recruits I know who he helped to recruit were our QBs ... and he was more explicitly responsible for us landing Shimonek in '13 and Mansell in '17.

White:
If you look in 2014 ... "on paper" he had quite a recruiting haul:
Taylor, Joly, Harris, Outsey, Truitt, Kidd, Ellis (assist with Kennedy)
2015: Falconer
In 2016 ... again "on paper" he had a decent recruiting haul:
Simon, Young, Taylor, Darby (didn't sign because Iowa didn't like his grades enough - but White brought the kid all the way "home")

Also, throughout the time ... White helped out in recruiting RBs. During that time we landed Markel Smith (didn't qualify due to grades), Akinribade (landed over Michigan, among others), and Kelly-Martin. Also, we almost landed Higdon (late flip to Michigan) and Eno Benjamin (White and Kennedy's own actions seemingly contributed to Eno's 'ship being pulled).

Given the number of players Iowa could sign and the positions of "need" that Iowa had - White most certainly pulled way more than his recruiting weight.

Kennedy:
2014: Jackson, Ellis (assist with White)
In 2015 ... "on paper" he had a pretty decent haul:
Garbutt, J. Smith, Ogwo, Jinning
2017: Hankins
... and, were it not for the missteps about letting Eno take visits ... Kennedy was in line for a huge Texas haul in '17 (Hankins + Benjamin, Holmes, Corrales ... I doubt that Calloway would have stuck with Iowa regardless).

As in the case of White, Kennedy also assisted with WR recruiting. Thus, there are plenty of WRs who he assisted in recruiting too.

Kennedy's recruiting pull was "okay" ... however, quite frankly, Morgan and White dwarfed the recruiting hauls of just about everybody.

However, if you actually read my prior post ... their explicit recruiting hauls at Iowa weren't the point. BOTH White and Kennedy had decent recruiting resumes before even getting to Iowa. Few recruiters at Iowa will hold a candle to Reese Morgan's contributions.

As I see it, the primary recruiting "upgrades" that we'll see from here on out are:

1. Replacing Greg Davis with Brian is a big recruiting improvement ... because, for all intents and purposes, Greg was "dead weight" in the recruiting game.
2. A younger staff may potentially have the advantage of relating to the players a little better.
3. Having a little more diversity on the staff might be perceived as a positive by many recruits.
4. Copeland and Polasek arguably understand the sort of culture at Iowa better than White and Kennedy. Thus, they won't try to undercut the sense of identity of the program. While this yet remains to be seen ... but they might have a better eye for developmental talent ... or a better eye for talent who "fits" Iowa's culture. This could potentially help the Hawks with regard to player retention.

The names/players attributed to White, Kennedy and Davis speak for themselves as it relates to actual production in college, its next to nothing. To suggest it was ok is being incredibly kind I'm afraid. You attributed Akinribade to White, however Rivals suggests his lead recruiter was Jim Reid. Kelly-Martin was primarily recruited by Brian Ferentz according to Rivals, so not sure we can give White a ton of credit there. Davis, Kennedy and White seem to have brought very little to the program as it relates to players that actually contributed while at Iowa. The Hawks and especially KF can't afford to have a third of his staff producing next to nothing on the recruiting trail. As I see it, a WR coach is primarily responsible for the talent and depth at the position he coaches, and I think we all know the condition of our WR position group. Heck, our best receiver (VandeBerg) wasn't even recruited by Kennedy, as I remember it Reese Morgan was responsible for recruiting South Dakota.

I have to believe we are better off with the new hires, the only place to go is up as far as I can tell.

Go Hawks

 

[ghostOfHomer777]

The names/players attributed to White, Kennedy and Davis speak for themselves as it relates to actual production in college, its next to nothing. To suggest it was ok is being incredibly kind I'm afraid. You attributed Akinribade to White, however Rivals suggests his lead recruiter was Jim Reid. Kelly-Martin was primarily recruited by Brian Ferentz according to Rivals, so not sure we can give White a ton of credit there. Davis, Kennedy and White seem to have brought very little to the program as it relates to players that actually contributed while at Iowa. The Hawks and especially KF can't afford to have a third of his staff producing next to nothing on the recruiting trail. As I see it, a WR coach is primarily responsible for the talent and depth at the position he coaches, and I think we all know the condition of our WR position group. Heck, our best receiver (VandeBerg) wasn't even recruited by Kennedy, as I remember it Reese Morgan was responsible for recruiting South Dakota.

I have to believe we are better off with the new hires, the only place to go is up as far as I can tell.

Go Hawks

I'm sorry, but do you have reading comprehension issues?

I initially listed the years along with the guys who they were the LEAD recruiter. However, just because a guy isn't a lead recruiter ... it doesn't mean that he doesn't assist in recruiting other guys.

For example, Hankins was a Texas recruit ... but obviously Phil Parker was also of critical importance in his recruitment. Similarly, Kennedy was the lead recruiter for Eno Benjamin ... but Chris White was important too. It's a no-brainer to suggest that the position coaches of the particular positions also aid in recruiting guys who will go to their respective position units.

Furthermore, the recruiting coordinator and the recruiting support staff also plays a huge role in the recruiting too. Eric Johnson had that post ... then it was passed to Seth Wallace ... and now it's in the hands of Kelvin Bell.

Also, you cannot cherry pick recruits who are successful versus those who are not. Just because a guy doesn't turn out at Iowa ... doesn't mean that he couldn't be a fit at a different school. For instance, Dezman Moses was a NJ guy who was one of Wilson's recruits .... he showed some early promise but then got buried on the depth chart and then made a position change. He wasn't really happy with the position move ... so then he transferred to Tulane. Ironically, at Tulane, he had a very successful career at the very position where Iowa had moved him to ... he also, at least initially, had been doing okay in the NFL too.

Similarly, Outsey was a guy who picked Iowa pretty early on ... and as a result, his recruitment largely was shut-down. However, that didn't stop Michigan State from trying to make a big push to land him late ... but they wanted him at TE. Outsey was a guy who had his heart set on playing LB ... he got caught behind Niemann, tried the position move to TE, but ultimately wasn't happy with the position move. Outsey was clearly a guy with a lot of promise who we lost to attrition.

Also, I don't have any idea why you keep on mentioning Davis in the context of recruiting. The whole initiating point for our discourse was that you were commenting on the TWO NEW HIRES ... those guys were effectively filling the voids left by Kennedy and White.

If you want to talk about Davis ... then try to compare the recruiting of Davis to the recruiting of O'Keefe. O'Keefe never a super-stud recruiter for us. He was responsible largely for our connections in the Connecticut and Massachusetts. I also think that his coaching connections were also our "in" in the recruitment of Marcus Coker too.

 

[DodgerHawki]

I'm sorry, but do you have reading comprehension issues?

I initially listed the years along with the guys who they were the LEAD recruiter. However, just because a guy isn't a lead recruiter ... it doesn't mean that he doesn't assist in recruiting other guys.

For example, Hankins was a Texas recruit ... but obviously Phil Parker was also of critical importance in his recruitment. Similarly, Kennedy was the lead recruiter for Eno Benjamin ... but Chris White was important too. It's a no-brainer to suggest that the position coaches of the particular positions also aid in recruiting guys who will go to their respective position units.

Furthermore, the recruiting coordinator and the recruiting support staff also plays a huge role in the recruiting too. Eric Johnson had that post ... then it was passed to Seth Wallace ... and now it's in the hands of Kelvin Bell.

Also, you cannot cherry pick recruits who are successful versus those who are not. Just because a guy doesn't turn out at Iowa ... doesn't mean that he couldn't be a fit at a different school. For instance, Dezman Moses was a NJ guy who was one of Wilson's recruits .... he showed some early promise but then got buried on the depth chart and then made a position change. He wasn't really happy with the position move ... so then he transferred to Tulane. Ironically, at Tulane, he had a very successful career at the very position where Iowa had moved him to ... he also, at least initially, had been doing okay in the NFL too.

Similarly, Outsey was a guy who picked Iowa pretty early on ... and as a result, his recruitment largely was shut-down. However, that didn't stop Michigan State from trying to make a big push to land him late ... but they wanted him at TE. Outsey was a guy who had his heart set on playing LB ... he got caught behind Niemann, tried the position move to TE, but ultimately wasn't happy with the position move. Outsey was clearly a guy with a lot of promise who we lost to attrition.

Also, I don't have any idea why you keep on mentioning Davis in the context of recruiting. The whole initiating point for our discourse was that you were commenting on the TWO NEW HIRES ... those guys were effectively filling the voids left by Kennedy and White.

If you want to talk about Davis ... then try to compare the recruiting of Davis to the recruiting of O'Keefe. O'Keefe never a super-stud recruiter for us. He was responsible largely for our connections in the Connecticut and Massachusetts. I also think that his coaching connections were also our "in" in the recruitment of Marcus Coker too.

How many words are you going to spend Homer to say nothing to his question? If all was so rosy with White and Kennedy, why where they let go? The list of recruits they were responsible for was not good. Yes, not all recruits pan out, but to have so few contributors is startling.

And if you want to compare the recruiting of O'Keefe and Greg Davis, not comparable. O'Keefe was responsible for Jeremelle Lewis. O'Keefe's contacts in Ohio and Pennsylvania were huge. He was the lead recruiter on DJK, Amari Spievey, Bradley Fletcher, Ricky Stanzi and others. If Peyton Mansell turns out to be the next great Iowa QB, we will have Davis to thank for that.

 

[HawkTex]

I don't anticipate language changes as much as I do routes, timing, play calling and formation.

Honestly and nobody wants to hear this and I do concede it ultimately falls on the coaches but our best wide receiver was hurt our best TE missed lots of games & our quarterback had an up-and-down season and everyone else including Riley dropped tons of passes.

So if our consistency and efficiency don't improve then the offense won't improve. Again....nobody likes to hear this but in every industry it always comes down to processes and your efficiency within those processes.

We weren't very efficient last year!

I don't anticipate language changes as much as I do routes, timing, play calling and formation.

Honestly and nobody wants to hear this and I do concede it ultimately falls on the coaches but our best wide receiver was hurt our best TE missed lots of games & our quarterback had an up-and-down season and everyone else including Riley dropped tons of passes.

So if our consistency and efficiency don't improve then the offense won't improve. Again....nobody likes to hear this but in every industry it always comes down to processes and your efficiency within those processes.

We weren't very efficient last year!

To drop tons of passes, you have to throw tons passes.

 

[HawkTex]

I agree with everything you say, but if Leshun Daniels touchdown stands, we win the NDSU game.

Should it really have come down to that?

 

[ghostOfHomer777]

How many words are you going to spend Homer to say nothing to his question? If all was so rosy with White and Kennedy, why where they let go? The list of recruits they were responsible for was not good. Yes, not all recruits pan out, but to have so few contributors is startling.

And if you want to compare the recruiting of O'Keefe and Greg Davis, not comparable. O'Keefe was responsible for Jeremelle Lewis. O'Keefe's contacts in Ohio and Pennsylvania were huge. He was the lead recruiter on DJK, Amari Spievey, Bradley Fletcher, Ricky Stanzi and others. If Peyton Mansell turns out to be the next great Iowa QB, we will have Davis to thank for that.

The point wasn't to indicate that White and Kennedy were necessarily all that great. Rather, it was to say that their contributions were about average. All those "words" were simply an attempt to stave off the revisionist perspective that our recruiting was below our ordinary Mendoza line.

Thanks for the info on O'Keefe in Ohio. I'm almost surprised that Iowa would need O'Keefe in Cardinal Mooney given Iowa's past with the school (given the brothers Stoops). One of the primary O'Keefe guys I had been thinking of was Jermelle ... but, as I indicated, he was Connecticut guy.

O'Keefe, of course, had connections in Pennsylvania due to his time at Allegheny College. Ferentz, himself, is responsible for our prior connections to the Erie area.

 

[ghostOfHomer777]

I have to believe we are better off with the new hires, the only place to go is up as far as I can tell.

Go Hawks

There we'd be in agreement. I'm very happy with the new hires as well. I think that the new hires can and will help us in recruiting too. However, the way they will help us in recruiting will likely be different than many fans might expect. Chris White accounted for quite a number of recruits ... in terms of sheer numbers, he was one of our better recruiters. However, many of the recruits he landed for us, we subsequently lost to attrition.

Therein lies the advantage I see with Polasek and Copeland. I think that they will better identify guys who "fit" Iowa. I think that they will find tougher-minded kids who will put in the work and trust in the developmental nature of the Hawkeye program.

Thus, our gains will likely be in the intangibles of the players ... rather than the recruiting ratings of the players landed.

 

[ghostOfHomer777]

How many words are you going to spend Homer to say nothing to his question? If all was so rosy with White and Kennedy, why where they let go? The list of recruits they were responsible for was not good. Yes, not all recruits pan out, but to have so few contributors is startling.

First off - how did I NOT answer his question?

Secondly, look at our special teams play before White and after White ... the guy definitely helped our program. Also, as a running backs coach ... the RBs definitely didn't appear to be the weak element of the O.

Why was White let go? I'm not entirely certain. My impressions are that he may have given some of the RBs too long of a leash ... perhaps not too unlike how things were with Campbell at WR. That is not always conducive to a good locker-room environment. A more likely reason why he was let go is because he probably was one of the two assistant coaches who told Eno Benjamin to take his visits but not tell Ferentz. This impacts how people perceive Iowa ... Ferentz wants to supply a consistent, fair approach to both coaching and recruiting. The assistants who misled Eno both misrepresented Eno and the Iowa program.

As for why Kennedy was let go ... I'd speculate that he was another one of the assistants involved in the Texas-recruiting fiasco that centered around Eno Benjamin. Additionally, I'd add that the WR development, as a whole, appeared far slower than we'd seen at Iowa under prior WR coaches.

 

[C/Seahawk]

I'm sorry, but do you have reading comprehension issues?

I initially listed the years along with the guys who they were the LEAD recruiter. However, just because a guy isn't a lead recruiter ... it doesn't mean that he doesn't assist in recruiting other guys.

For example, Hankins was a Texas recruit ... but obviously Phil Parker was also of critical importance in his recruitment. Similarly, Kennedy was the lead recruiter for Eno Benjamin ... but Chris White was important too. It's a no-brainer to suggest that the position coaches of the particular positions also aid in recruiting guys who will go to their respective position units.

Furthermore, the recruiting coordinator and the recruiting support staff also plays a huge role in the recruiting too. Eric Johnson had that post ... then it was passed to Seth Wallace ... and now it's in the hands of Kelvin Bell.

Also, you cannot cherry pick recruits who are successful versus those who are not. Just because a guy doesn't turn out at Iowa ... doesn't mean that he couldn't be a fit at a different school. For instance, Dezman Moses was a NJ guy who was one of Wilson's recruits .... he showed some early promise but then got buried on the depth chart and then made a position change. He wasn't really happy with the position move ... so then he transferred to Tulane. Ironically, at Tulane, he had a very successful career at the very position where Iowa had moved him to ... he also, at least initially, had been doing okay in the NFL too.

Similarly, Outsey was a guy who picked Iowa pretty early on ... and as a result, his recruitment largely was shut-down. However, that didn't stop Michigan State from trying to make a big push to land him late ... but they wanted him at TE. Outsey was a guy who had his heart set on playing LB ... he got caught behind Niemann, tried the position move to TE, but ultimately wasn't happy with the position move. Outsey was clearly a guy with a lot of promise who we lost to attrition.

Also, I don't have any idea why you keep on mentioning Davis in the context of recruiting. The whole initiating point for our discourse was that you were commenting on the TWO NEW HIRES ... those guys were effectively filling the voids left by Kennedy and White.

If you want to talk about Davis ... then try to compare the recruiting of Davis to the recruiting of O'Keefe. O'Keefe never a super-stud recruiter for us. He was responsible largely for our connections in the Connecticut and Massachusetts. I also think that his coaching connections were also our "in" in the recruitment of Marcus Coker too.

You don't get extra credit for the length of your posts. There is still no evidence to suggest Kennedy was anything but a failure at Iowa and I'm still not sure how much White contributed. You trumpeted the recruiting resumes of Kennedy and White and I'm simply suggesting they did absolutely nothing that would suggest they were even okay during their time at Iowa. Kennedy especially seems like a wasted hire...I think I had previously read he was brought in to help teach and communicate the new playbook Davis was installing.

You act like Iowa is the only school that is honest, runs a clean program and builds a reputable culture. Personally, I think a lot of schools operate this way, yet we've been sold a bill of goods as it relates to the 'we're just little old Iowa' crutch as to why we can't recruit better players and play a tougher non-conference schedule. I simply don't buy it. We used to recruit well in Florida and Pennsylvania and we essentially gave up. KF lost out on Sean Lee and he promptly pulled up the Iowa flag that had been planted in Erie and walked home. Again, I'll go back to what initiated this conversation. You suggested White and Kennedy had pretty decent recruiting resumes and you didn't think Iowa was as poor at recruiting as many fans seem to think. I happen to think Iowa is below average at recruiting. I suppose we'll agree to disagree.

go hawks

 

[ghostOfHomer777]

You don't get extra credit for the length of your posts. There is still no evidence to suggest Kennedy was anything but a failure at Iowa and I'm still not sure how much White contributed. You trumpeted the recruiting resumes of Kennedy and White and I'm simply suggesting they did absolutely nothing that would suggest they were even okay during their time at Iowa. Kennedy especially seems like a wasted hire...I think I had previously read he was brought in to help teach and communicate the new playbook Davis was installing.

go hawks

I trumpeted their recruiting resumes over the duration of their career. I wasn't specifically referring to their recruiting at Iowa.

Count the number of guys recruited by Brian Ferentz. Count the guys recruited by LeVar Woods. Heck, even count the number of guys recruited by Phil Parker. If you ONLY consider who they land as the lead recruiter (which is typically done by recruiting territory at Iowa) - then you'll find that pretty much everybody not named Reese Morgan has hit-or-miss recruiting years. That is just the nature of the business. If you can land a charismatic kid who networks and gets a bunch of fellow guys from the same region on board ... then an individual recruiter can occasionally have a bit of a wind-fall. That was certainly the case with Phil Parker's '16 recruiting haul.

As for Kennedy at Iowa - I agree that the WR development wasn't quite as good as we'd like to see. However, if you contrast our WR play under Kennedy with Greg versus how the WR play looked under Campbell with Greg as the OC ... then Kennedy actually was a little bit of an improvement.

 

[ghostOfHomer777]

You act like Iowa is the only school that is honest, runs a clean program and builds a reputable culture. Personally, I think a lot of schools operate this way, yet we've been sold a bill of goods as it relates to the 'we're just little old Iowa' crutch as to why we can't recruit better players and play a tougher non-conference schedule. I simply don't buy it. We used to recruit well in Florida and Pennsylvania and we essentially gave up. KF lost out on Sean Lee and he promptly pulled up the Iowa flag that had been planted in Erie and walked home. Again, I'll go back to what initiated this conversation. You suggested White and Kennedy had pretty decent recruiting resumes and you didn't think Iowa was as poor at recruiting as many fans seem to think. I happen to think Iowa is below average at recruiting. I suppose we'll agree to disagree.

Firstly, in the bolded portion - why do you do that? Why exaggerate? What is the need? What purpose does it serve in supporting your point?

You see Harbaugh's approach to recruiting - it's more than a little swarmy and slimy. You look at Michigan State's track record recruiting against us ... a lot of misinformation and a lot of negative recruiting. Look at a number of those SEC programs ... with their 100 dollar handshakes. Look at the SEC with the over-signing.

Heck, even at Iowa, look at how Fran recruits. Sometimes he lands guys by essentially promising them starting spots. He at least sticks to his promises ... but it still is in stark contrast with Ferentz's "no-guarantees, you get what you earn" stance.

Iowa obviously isn't the ONLY program that tries to run things the right way. Furthermore, we're not the only program that tries to be honest in recruiting either. However, given that Iowa isn't a blue-blood program ... given that we don't have the recruiting capital that other programs have ... Ferentz's recruiting philosophy potentially DOES hamstring the Hawks in terms of the raw talent we bring on board. However, I imagine that part of what drives Ferentz's philosophy is succinctly summarized by Doyle's line ... "talent is overrated." If you have guys who are smart and tough, who have the raw tools, and who are willing to work ... then you have the ingredients for what can build a winning program.

 

[cidhawkeye]

What do you refer to as 'recruiting capital'? Who has Fran promised starting spots to?

 

[cmhawks99]

Sorry for joining late, want to make sure I caught up. Consistency and execution are it, period(is that an absolute?) but momentum is important, can't make many adjustments during the week, efficiency is big, confirmation bias is important and when used by the opposing viewpoint is bad and ignorant but when used to support the viewpoint of the person mentioning it ignoring it is valid and that 4 games should give all of us perspective. Oh and long td runs that get called back are a bad thing. Did I catch up? Oh and yes you can make adjustments to game plans from week to week, schemes do matter, knowing which side of the field the play is going to is huge and happened against Iowa quite a bit, it has been shown on this board. The fun part will be watching the people think that the offense looks the same this fall when it reality it will be quite different.

So again how did Iowa win 8 games last year, I'll wait?

 

[DodgerHawki]

Firstly, in the bolded portion - why do you do that? Why exaggerate? What is the need? What purpose does it serve in supporting your point?

You see Harbaugh's approach to recruiting - it's more than a little swarmy and slimy. You look at Michigan State's track record recruiting against us ... a lot of misinformation and a lot of negative recruiting. Look at a number of those SEC programs ... with their 100 dollar handshakes. Look at the SEC with the over-signing.

Heck, even at Iowa, look at how Fran recruits. Sometimes he lands guys by essentially promising them starting spots. He at least sticks to his promises ... but it still is in stark contrast with Ferentz's "no-guarantees, you get what you earn" stance.

Iowa obviously isn't the ONLY program that tries to run things the right way. Furthermore, we're not the only program that tries to be honest in recruiting either. However, given that Iowa isn't a blue-blood program ... given that we don't have the recruiting capital that other programs have ... Ferentz's recruiting philosophy potentially DOES hamstring the Hawks in terms of the raw talent we bring on board. However, I imagine that part of what drives Ferentz's philosophy is succinctly summarized by Doyle's line ... "talent is overrated." If you have guys who are smart and tough, who have the raw tools, and who are willing to work ... then you have the ingredients for what can build a winning program.

Wow the strawmen being put forth. Why bring up Harbaugh. He is not breaking the rules. We all find it annoying, but he's leveraging what he has with the Michigan brand and getting in front of recruits. The SEC is another level of smarm. C/S point was that there are a lot of other programs who do things the "right way."

Where has Fran ever promised people starting spots? And why bring Fran into it? Do you think Ferentz didn't say to Epenesa that "you will have an opportunity to compete for playing time early?" I'm sure he did. At the bowl game, Parker flat out said Epenesa will play wherever he wants. He's that good. Does that make Parker unreputable? No.

Iowa has inherent disadvantages to other teams like OSU or Michigan, or teams in huge population centers when it comes to recruiting. Always has, always will. But I don't see how Iowa's philosophy hamstrings Iowa whatsoever. Iowa goes after highly ranked guys. All the time. When has Doyle or Ferentz ever said "talent is overrated."? Never. Of course, they don't go off what recruiting services say. But if you don't think KF would like to try one season with Urban's roster or Harbaugh's roster, you're nuts.

 

[cmhawks99]

Sorry for joining late, want to make sure I caught up. Consistency and execution are it, period(is that an absolute?) but momentum is important, can't make many adjustments during the week, efficiency is big, confirmation bias is important and when used by the opposing viewpoint is bad and ignorant but when used to support the viewpoint of the person mentioning it ignoring it is valid and that 4 games should give all of us perspective. Oh and long td runs that get called back are a bad thing. Did I catch up? Oh and yes you can make adjustments to game plans from week to week, schemes do matter, knowing which side of the field the play is going to is huge and happened against Iowa quite a bit, it has been shown on this board. The fun part will be watching the people think that the offense looks the same this fall when it reality it will be quite different.

Until we lose and then it will be exactly the same...LOL, Now you are caught up...

 

[ghostOfHomer777]

What do you refer to as 'recruiting capital'? Who has Fran promised starting spots to?

I'm willing to bet that promises were made to Woody (concerning Fran). Is it a fact? Nah - because I don't know for sure - I only infer it on circumstantial evidence. However, for stretches, Oleseni was clearly the better C ... and sometimes it didn't even appear close. Do you remember a game when Woody was on the team, was healthy, and didn't start? As I recall ... he started from day one.

What do you think would comprise recruiting capital?

Capital is an abstract, "coarse" concept that may represent many things. The fertility of your primary recruiting grounds (typically linked to geography) relates to recruiting capital. Greater fertility ... greater recruiting capital. Sexier schemes ... more attraction to recruits ... greater recruiting capital. More media exposure ... more attraction to recruits ... greater recruiting capital. More recognizable branding ... more attraction to recruits ... greater recruiting capital.

Of course, recruiting capital isn't a static concept. It is dynamic. Obviously, when a program is facing more negative publicity ... that likely leads to less recruiting capital. When a program is winning ... say like Alabama ... that obviously contributes to more recruiting capital. Places like Alabama obviously leverage their great success to land top recruits.

 

[cmhawks99]

How many words are you going to spend Homer to say nothing to his question? If all was so rosy with White and Kennedy, why where they let go? The list of recruits they were responsible for was not good. Yes, not all recruits pan out, but to have so few contributors is startling.

And if you want to compare the recruiting of O'Keefe and Greg Davis, not comparable. O'Keefe was responsible for Jeremelle Lewis. O'Keefe's contacts in Ohio and Pennsylvania were huge. He was the lead recruiter on DJK, Amari Spievey, Bradley Fletcher, Ricky Stanzi and others. If Peyton Mansell turns out to be the next great Iowa QB, we will have Davis to thank for that.

I'll shorten it, they HAD, emphasis on "had" good recruiting resumes at other stops. Iowa is hard to recruit to fellas, you pretending like it isn't, doesn't make it not so....

Of course your smart enough to know that (at least I hope) if not we should all stop talking now.

 

[ghostOfHomer777]

Do you think Ferentz didn't say to Epenesa that "you will have an opportunity to compete for playing time early?" I'm sure he did. At the bowl game, Parker flat out said Epenesa will play wherever he wants. He's that good. Does that make Parker unreputable? No.

In any of those scenarios is a promise made to definitely play? Is a promise made to definitely start? The innuendo is that everything must still be earned.

As for Epenesa playing wherever he wants ... isn't that usually the case at Iowa? When Iowa recruits a guy ... he always get to initially get reps in the position group of his choice. Boyle wanted to be a QB ... so Iowa let him return to the QB group (it was his choice). Iowa recommends position changes. Those position changes usually link up with more immediate playing time. They usually supply a player with an avenue to make a bigger and quicker impact for the team. However, to my knowledge, the players are ASKED if they're willing to make such position changes.

Again, as I indicated before, there is big difference between the wording you wrote ... and the guarantees that some places offer.

 

[cmhawks99]

Should it really have come down to that?

Well we were favored by 12.5 over NDSU, Michigan was favored by 20 plus over us, so I ask you

Should it have? Just a little perspective for you.....

 

[cmhawks99]

You don't get extra credit for the length of your posts. There is still no evidence to suggest Kennedy was anything but a failure at Iowa and I'm still not sure how much White contributed. You trumpeted the recruiting resumes of Kennedy and White and I'm simply suggesting they did absolutely nothing that would suggest they were even okay during their time at Iowa. Kennedy especially seems like a wasted hire...I think I had previously read he was brought in to help teach and communicate the new playbook Davis was installing.

You act like Iowa is the only school that is honest, runs a clean program and builds a reputable culture. Personally, I think a lot of schools operate this way, yet we've been sold a bill of goods as it relates to the 'we're just little old Iowa' crutch as to why we can't recruit better players and play a tougher non-conference schedule. I simply don't buy it. We used to recruit well in Florida and Pennsylvania and we essentially gave up. KF lost out on Sean Lee and he promptly pulled up the Iowa flag that had been planted in Erie and walked home. Again, I'll go back to what initiated this conversation. You suggested White and Kennedy had pretty decent recruiting resumes and you didn't think Iowa was as poor at recruiting as many fans seem to think. I happen to think Iowa is below average at recruiting. I suppose we'll agree to disagree.

go hawks

Lets just break this down.....Kennedy, I don't know what he did or didn't do but White....

Our special team play improved greatly in recent years and our Rbers were stellar. Now if you didn't notice you should stop watching at all or start at least...

As far as our recruiting, if you gauge by rankings you'd be right, but by NFL inclusion, drastically wrong. Development only goes so far, outside of QB and WR, these guys are some of the finest talent evaluators in America and that goes with recruiting.

 

[cmhawks99]

What do you refer to as 'recruiting capital'? Who has Fran promised starting spots to?

I have a great friend who is the father of one of our Bball players, Homer is right....that's the big reason the kid from Oak Hill left. He had some misinformation and he couldn't reconcile it in his mind. You guys have fostered the opinion Iowa "isn't" that much harder to recruit to and KF "isn't" that different as far as integrity goes. And that's because if you conceded this it would go against your agenda (confirmation bias) that we are under-performing and the Truth is Iowa is a tradition rich school that is well received. But still harder to recruit to than about 50 other schools and although KF isn't Ghandi and no he ISN'T the only honest, straight forward guy, his approach is STILL unique compared to the totality of the landscape and to deny it renders your involvement in this discussion useless because you aren't able to see the most basic reality's?!

 

[ghostOfHomer777]

When has Doyle or Ferentz ever said "talent is overrated."? Never. Of course, they don't go off what recruiting services say.

On what basis do you claim "never?"

Here's an excerpt from an article ...

“I think that everybody has talent. I think talent is overrated. I think that when you bring kids in, there are certain kids that are four-star or that are five-star. They come from a certain school and they have a certain pedigree or their resume looks better. But then the intangibles, the stuff that’s hard to measure when you’re assigning stars to an athlete, is their grit, is the determination, is the family makeup. What’s going to happen when this kid faces some adversity?” - Chris Doyle

Link to the article: http://www.hawkcentral.com/story/sp...-kirk-ferentz-joe-moore-chris-doyle/95474612/

 

[cidhawkeye]

I have a great friend who is the father of one of our Bball players, Homer is right....that's the big reason the kid from Oak Hill left. He had some misinformation and he couldn't reconcile it in his mind. You guys have fostered the opinion Iowa "isn't" that much harder to recruit to and KF "isn't" that different as far as integrity goes. And that's because if you conceded this it would go against your agenda (confirmation bias) that we are under-performing and the Truth is Iowa is a tradition rich school that is well received. But still harder to recruit to than about 50 other schools and although KF isn't Ghandi and no he ISN'T the only honest, straight forward guy, his approach is STILL unique compared to the totality of the landscape and to deny it renders your involvement in this discussion useless because you aren't able to see the most basic reality's?!

Please don't use my questions to get on your soapbox. You interjected your perspective and implied that I had some opinions that I haven't stated. If you have issues with other people's posts quote those. I asked a question and you answered one vaguely and didn't address the other. Save your 'smarter than everybody else ' approach for someone you are actually smarter than.