The Tragedy of the Unwanted Child: What Ancient Cultures Did Before Abortion

RileyHawk

HR Legend
Gold Member
Aug 21, 2002
35,118
20,620
113
A sperm or an egg is not a unique human life; it does not have unique DNA. Once they are combined, a zygote is and does.

I'm for legislating for protection of the unborn because the unique life within the womb requires protection in very much the same respect as those who have fought for legislation that we cannot discard of an eagle egg.

From my perspective, your opposite viewpoint is legislation (or a freedom) that allows a person to end the life of another. I cannot see how it is acceptable for me to enact legislation that prevents humans from harvesting eagle eggs but not work to protect the life of an unborn child, which is much more significant because of the sacredness of human life. And I cannot understand how an eagle egg deserves protection but not a human "egg."

This isn't a discussion of faith vs. science. Your view of science requires faith as well, but it is placed in a different person than the Person of my faith.

And, what has stimulated all of this recent debate is that the Supreme Court ruled that the Constitution does not speak on the matter of abortion as an inalienable right of Americans. The SCOTUS ruling does not prevent abortions; it does not limit any freedoms. It allows the states to decide on this issue, which makes complete sense because this decision should be determined by the legislative branch, those who are elected and have the opportunity to be held accountable by those they serve, not the judicial branch, which is not.

For the record, Clay, I appreciate that you can approach this conversation with maturity. That is rare these days, especially on this message board.
What part of the Constitution or any law requires a person to put their life at risk to support another?

I asked Hoosier this but he won't answer - is there any law that forces a person to give a Kidney to another person/child/baby that needs one or will die?

The Jewish faith holds that human life begins at first breath. You are simply forcing your religious beliefs on others.
 

HawkPT

HR MVP
Dec 13, 2002
1,431
959
113
By your logic sperm is human life and all sperm should be saved.

Eagle's egg? Really? No person has to put their life at risk to support an ealge's egg. That's complete nonsense.

A baby can live with support for any number of sources and it doesn't require them to put their lives at risk to do so.
You don't even know what a zygote is.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: RileyHawk

HawkPT

HR MVP
Dec 13, 2002
1,431
959
113
What part of the Constitution or any law requires a person to put their life at risk to support another?

I asked Hoosier this but he won't answer - is there any law that forces a person to give a Kidney to another person/child/baby that needs one or will die?

The Jewish faith holds that human life begins at first breath. You are simply forcing your religious beliefs on others.
The Constitution also does not allow a person to end another's life.

I'm not Jewish.
 

RileyHawk

HR Legend
Gold Member
Aug 21, 2002
35,118
20,620
113
The Constitution also does not allow a person to end another's life.

I'm not Jewish.
Where in the Constitution is that the case? And nowhere does it require someone to risk their life for another. Nor does it say life begins at conception. You are merely projecting your religious beliefs to try to make law.
 

RNHawk

HR Legend
Gold Member
Dec 5, 2001
10,896
4,011
113
Joes Place said:

They couldn't if the preferred type was not available thru insurance, and they worked an hourly Hobby Lobby job that meant it was financially difficult for them.

REMEMBER - they are ALREADY paying insurance premiums. And having to search around to find it somewhere "free" costs money. Time = money.


Then pick a different form.



Hoosierhawkeye said:

Then pick a different form.

That's not doable for many. Why not, instead, have the company choose a different stance?



RileyHawk said:

That's not doable for many. Why not, instead, have the company choose a different stance?

a 1 dollar condom is not doable?



RNHawk said:

that a mens condom doesn't offer any protection

Not in a purse.

You really are dense.


what in the hell does a purse have to do with anything in this conversation???
 

Joes Place

HR King
Aug 28, 2003
123,490
117,899
113
You can't show that they are actually following the law either.

Depends on the state and the laws

The FACT is that it is happening, and will continue to happen. BECAUSE The laws were written so broadly and so poorly

And here you are, still defending them....
 
  • Like
Reactions: RileyHawk

Joes Place

HR King
Aug 28, 2003
123,490
117,899
113
A sperm or an egg is not a unique human life; it does not have unique DNA. Once they are combined, a zygote is and does.

And 75% of those never implant, or are aborted "naturally".

Following a "design" by a God who allegedly tells you "every one is sacred".
#LogicAin'tYourStrongSuitHere
 

RileyHawk

HR Legend
Gold Member
Aug 21, 2002
35,118
20,620
113
Joes Place said:

They couldn't if the preferred type was not available thru insurance, and they worked an hourly Hobby Lobby job that meant it was financially difficult for them.

REMEMBER - they are ALREADY paying insurance premiums. And having to search around to find it somewhere "free" costs money. Time = money.


Then pick a different form.



Hoosierhawkeye said:

Then pick a different form.

That's not doable for many. Why not, instead, have the company choose a different stance?



RileyHawk said:

That's not doable for many. Why not, instead, have the company choose a different stance?

a 1 dollar condom is not doable?



RNHawk said:

that a mens condom doesn't offer any protection

Not in a purse.

You really are dense.


what in the hell does a purse have to do with anything in this conversation???
JFC - I will spell it out for you. Read it multiple times until it sinks in.

A woman can buy a condom but it doesn't do any good if the guy doesn't wear it. It's not a good form of birth control for HER and she's the one at greatest risk.

So dense.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: LetsGoHawks83

RNHawk

HR Legend
Gold Member
Dec 5, 2001
10,896
4,011
113
JFC - I will spell it out for you. Read it multiple times until it sinks in.

A woman can buy a condom but it doesn't do any good if the guy doesn't wear it. It's not a good form of birth control for HER and she's the one at greatest risk.

So dense.
So this hypothetical woman who is concerned about birth control and getting pregnant will still have sex with a guy who refuses to wear a condom? Exhibit A of why abortion should be off the table in these instances
 

RileyHawk

HR Legend
Gold Member
Aug 21, 2002
35,118
20,620
113
So this hypothetical woman who is concerned about birth control and getting pregnant will still have sex with a guy who refuses to wear a condom? Exhibit A of why abortion should be off the table in these instances
She all too often doesn't have a choice you moron. Not to mention the percentage of times a condom does not work.

And the discussion was about her PREFERRED choice of birth control.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: LetsGoHawks83

RNHawk

HR Legend
Gold Member
Dec 5, 2001
10,896
4,011
113
She all too often doesn't have a choice you moron. Not to mention the percentage of times a condom does not work.

And the discussion was about her PREFERRED choice of birth control.
so she is being raped? what do you mean she has no choice? preferred choice of birth control was being discussed along with the costs. When you say percentage of times are you talking about the 2% it does not work? Because common sense says that 98% effectiveness is better than none.

Who is dense?

 

HawkPT

HR MVP
Dec 13, 2002
1,431
959
113
So this hypothetical woman who is concerned about birth control and getting pregnant will still have sex with a guy who refuses to wear a condom? Exhibit A of why abortion should be off the table in these instances
That's because that is what this is really about. They will use the rare circumstances when a woman's life is at risk to make a point, but every time I mention to a pro-choice person that I'm willing to make stipulations that allow for abortions when the life of a mother is at stake, they go a different direction.

The concerns for many on this side of the argument are not about the lives of mothers; it's about being accountable to no one but yourself and your desires. We all worship something. To them, it is only acceptable for oneself to be on the throne of your heart. "The only life that matters is mine, and you are a religious bigot if you tell me otherwise." It is great irony.

For pete's sake, we've been arguing about the definition of life for three pages with a few comments about sustainability of that life. Those most vocal on this thread haven't even brought up the the distinction of personhood, which would be a much better argument on their part, in my opinion, but they have so much religious zeal for their dogma that they can't even agree with the basic understanding that if something is growing, it is alive.
 

RileyHawk

HR Legend
Gold Member
Aug 21, 2002
35,118
20,620
113
so she is being raped? what do you mean she has no choice? preferred choice of birth control was being discussed along with the costs. When you say percentage of times are you talking about the 2% it does not work? Because common sense says that 98% effectiveness is better than none.

Who is dense?

You are. Completely. Yes, there is rape, are you denying that? Then there is where they do it anyway - your position seems to be "well, she shouldn't have had sex then. Let he bear the consequences" which is what a lot of the right wingers say. To that I say, it's disgusting thinking of bearing a child as punishment fr having sex.

And condoms can be 98% effective but typically are around 82%. Still, even at 98% if you take all the heterosexual sex acts and have 2% of those result in pregnancy - that's a lot of unwanted pregnancies even though birth control was used. If you're really an RN you should know these things.

Condoms​

Male condoms are made of latex, polyurethane, polyisoprene, or natural membrane. One of the things that factor into the effectiveness of condoms is that you are using the correct size condom. Condoms do not typically break or have holes and are one of the only birth control methods that are also effective at preventing sexually transmitted infections.
  • Perfect Use: Male condoms are 98% effective.2
  • Typical Use: Male condoms are 82% effective.2
  • This means that out of every 100 women whose partners use condoms for one year, 2 will become pregnant (with perfect use) and 18 will become pregnant (with typical use).
https://www.verywellhealth.com/effectiveness-of-condoms-against-pregnancy-906819
 
  • Haha
Reactions: LetsGoHawks83

claykenny

HR Legend
Gold Member
Feb 5, 2003
13,411
7,168
113
Colorado
That's because that is what this is really about. They will use the rare circumstances when a woman's life is at risk to make a point, but every time I mention to a pro-choice person that I'm willing to make stipulations that allow for abortions when the life of a mother is at stake, they go a different direction.

The concerns for many on this side of the argument are not about the lives of mothers; it's about being accountable to no one but yourself and your desires. We all worship something. To them, it is only acceptable for oneself to be on the throne of your heart. "The only life that matters is mine, and you are a religious bigot if you tell me otherwise." It is great irony.

For pete's sake, we've been arguing about the definition of life for three pages with a few comments about sustainability of that life. Those most vocal on this thread haven't even brought up the the distinction of personhood, which would be a much better argument on their part, in my opinion, but they have so much religious zeal for their dogma that they can't even agree with the basic understanding that if something is growing, it is alive.

In the context of this discussion, life to me is referring to personhood. What makes us uniquely human. I don’t consider a pre-20 week fetus to equate to personhood based on everything else I’ve brought up in this and other threads.
 
  • Like
Reactions: HawkPT

RNHawk

HR Legend
Gold Member
Dec 5, 2001
10,896
4,011
113
You are. Completely. Yes, there is rape, are you denying that? Then there is where they do it anyway - your position seems to be "well, she shouldn't have had sex then. Let he bear the consequences" which is what a lot of the right wingers say. To that I say, it's disgusting thinking of bearing a child as punishment fr having sex.

And condoms can be 98% effective but typically are around 82%. Still, even at 98% if you take all the heterosexual sex acts and have 2% of those result in pregnancy - that's a lot of unwanted pregnancies even though birth control was used. If you're really an RN you should know these things.

Condoms​

Male condoms are made of latex, polyurethane, polyisoprene, or natural membrane. One of the things that factor into the effectiveness of condoms is that you are using the correct size condom. Condoms do not typically break or have holes and are one of the only birth control methods that are also effective at preventing sexually transmitted infections.
  • Perfect Use: Male condoms are 98% effective.2
  • Typical Use: Male condoms are 82% effective.2
  • This means that out of every 100 women whose partners use condoms for one year, 2 will become pregnant (with perfect use) and 18 will become pregnant (with typical use).
https://www.verywellhealth.com/effectiveness-of-condoms-against-pregnancy-906819
You are absolutely right, liberals still haven't or won't grasp the concept of taking responsibility for your actions. The overturning of Roe v Wade will hopefully help some of those people. No more of well he didn't have a condom but I still wanted it and if I get pregnant then I will just get an abortion

No birth control is 100% effective, I won't say what is 100% effective because you will probably lose your mind.
 
  • Like
Reactions: LetsGoHawks83

RileyHawk

HR Legend
Gold Member
Aug 21, 2002
35,118
20,620
113
You are absolutely right, liberals still haven't or won't grasp the concept of taking responsibility for your actions. The overturning of Roe v Wade will hopefully help some of those people. No more of well he didn't have a condom but I still wanted it and if I get pregnant then I will just get an abortion

No birth control is 100% effective, I won't say what is 100% effective because you will probably lose your mind.
As I said - it's disgusting to view bearing a child as punishment.

I notice you glossed right over rape and when birth control doesn't work. Typical.

What this gets to is the religious beliefs about abstinence. Trying to force that on the entire population even though it has never worked.
 

Joes Place

HR King
Aug 28, 2003
123,490
117,899
113
More fallout from the "Pro Embryonic Life ONLY" crew:


That's right: ANY medication that MIGHT be used for an abortion becomes difficult (if not impossible) for someone to get for a completely DIFFERENT condition.

Why? Because those pharmacies and hospital/clinic administrators DO NOT WANT the silly vigilante laws to create thousands in legal fees for them.

Quit claiming your are 'pro-life', because you clearly are NOT. You only care about embryos and fetuses and care NOTHING for anyone fully born.
 

HawkPT

HR MVP
Dec 13, 2002
1,431
959
113
More fallout from the "Pro Embryonic Life ONLY" crew:







That's right: ANY medication that MIGHT be used for an abortion becomes difficult (if not impossible) for someone to get for a completely DIFFERENT condition.

Why? Because those pharmacies and hospital/clinic administrators DO NOT WANT the silly vigilante laws to create thousands in legal fees for them.

Quit claiming your are 'pro-life', because you clearly are NOT. You only care about embryos and fetuses and care NOTHING for anyone fully born.
Lifeguards, you should pull no one out of a riptide unless you can commit to providing the survivor with a lifetime of free rent and groceries. Otherwise, you're not really pro-life, you're just anti-drowning.

No one should believe your drivel because it is preposterous. You're playing a game that anyone can play, and yet for the past 50 years we've snuffed out the life of 63 million unborn.

Conservatives have played the long game and finally have seen some justice served by the SCOTUS. Now the legislative branch can attempt to do in each state what they are actually elected to do instead of barking about problems while getting donations and winning elections instead of solving those problems.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: RileyHawk

Joes Place

HR King
Aug 28, 2003
123,490
117,899
113
Lifeguards, you should pull no one out of a riptide unless you can commit to providing the survivor with a lifetime of free rent and groceries. Otherwise, you're not really pro-life, you're just anti-drowning.
LOLWUT?

No one should listen to your drivel because it is preposterous.
 
  • Like
Reactions: RileyHawk

Latest posts