The Unraveling of America

Hawk_82

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I think it's safe to say that democracy and capitalism are failing in America.

This was an interesting article and unfortunately true on too many fronts. One key point that rings true for me, trump is a symptom of the problems America has,. He is not the reason for all the problems. However I know our polititions don't believe this, nor have they learned a lesson.

America will continue it's fall. it's sad but true.
 

binsfeldcyhawk2

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Hoosierhawkeye

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He's massaging a few statistics and he's overstating several things but he does make some seriously good points.

The biggest problem I have with his conclusion is that the torch is simply not going to be passed to China. It's not.

Here is why. If you are going to be a super power and a leader of the world you have to have friends. You have to have other countries that are willing to work with you. That isn't going to happen. Japan, NATO, South Korea, Australia, New Zealand. . . all of these countries they might not really think the US makes for the most stable and effective leadership in the world. . . but they are still going to look at us and say "Well they are a hell of a lot better than China."

I do think our influence in the world is fading, but not to the extent that China's going to be the new World leader.
 

pablow

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He's massaging a few statistics and he's overstating several things but he does make some seriously good points.

The biggest problem I have with his conclusion is that the torch is simply not going to be passed to China. It's not.

Here is why. If you are going to be a super power and a leader of the world you have to have friends. You have to have other countries that are willing to work with you. That isn't going to happen. Japan, NATO, South Korea, Australia, New Zealand. . . all of these countries they might not really think the US makes for the most stable and effective leadership in the world. . . but they are still going to look at us and say "Well they are a hell of a lot better than China."

I do think our influence in the world is fading, but not to the extent that China's going to be the new World leader.
When the dust settles, it will be China that suffers the most from this pandemic. In fact, in time I believe it will be determined that China made a deliberate decision to infect the world.
 

Hoosierhawkeye

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Now do an article on fatherless homes.
He mentioned them in talking about our divorce rates and the break up of our families.

In fact that is one of the things that I found crazy is he mentioned that and then later on says that Conservatives want to go back to the '50's and then starts talking about gay rights and women in the work place. But he doesn't think "Well if in the '50's most families stayed together and that was working out well for society. . . maybe they have a bit of a point???" I'm not saying we should turn back to the clock on gay rights or women in the work place or anything like that. But we do need to make a concerted government effort to make sure that people stay married and that children are raised in stable family environment with two parents as much as possible.

But what conservatives don't want to admit is that our divorce rate, the fatherless homes, the broken families. . . all of that is caused by our cultural and our political focus on individualism. When he said in America "no one owes each other anything" that applies to every fabric of life. . . That applies to people wearing masks and not going out if they have the virus, that applies to people not having access to healthcare because we still retain this ridiculous system, that applies to our political problems, and that also applies to the family.

When you are told growing up from every source that it's all about you as an individual that's how people treat not just national politics but their own local communities and their families.
 

Hoosierhawkeye

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When the dust settles, it will be China that suffers the most from this pandemic. In fact, in time I believe it will be determined that China made a deliberate decision to infect the world.
I doubt this was deliberate. . . it hasn't gained them much. If anything it hurt them. Trump was a useful idiot for them and COVID may have cost him his best chance at being re-elected.

China didn't come out of this as big winners.
 

pablow

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I doubt this was deliberate. . . it hasn't gained them much. If anything it hurt them. Trump was a useful idiot for them and COVID may have cost him his best chance at being re-elected.

China didn't come out of this as big winners.
China allowed travel international travel out of Wuhan, but banned domestic travel. Somebody explain that.
 
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Rudolph

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He mentioned them in talking about our divorce rates and the break up of our families.

In fact that is one of the things that I found crazy is he mentioned that and then later on says that Conservatives want to go back to the '50's and then starts talking about gay rights and women in the work place. But he doesn't think "Well if in the '50's most families stayed together and that was working out well for society. . . maybe they have a bit of a point???" I'm not saying we should turn back to the clock on gay rights or women in the work place or anything like that. But we do need to make a concerted government effort to make sure that people stay married and that children are raised in stable family environment with two parents as much as possible.

But what conservatives don't want to admit is that our divorce rate, the fatherless homes, the broken families. . . all of that is caused by our cultural and our political focus on individualism. When he said in America "no one owes each other anything" that applies to every fabric of life. . . That applies to people wearing masks and not going out if they have the virus, that applies to people not having access to healthcare because we still retain this ridiculous system, that applies to our political problems, and that also applies to the family.

When you are told growing up from every source that it's all about you as an individual that's how people treat not just national politics but their own local communities and their families.
Economic conditions of the 50s are important, too. Not just the family stuff. There’s a reason the Green New Deal chose that moniker.
 

Hoosierhawkeye

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China allowed travel international travel out of Wuhan, but banned domestic travel. Somebody explain that.
Source?. . . If that's true I would say you can probably claim that.

I re-read what you said and I think I got the impression that you were claiming that China invented the virus to infect the world. But if you are just saying that China didn't take precautions to protect the rest of the world after they found the virus I could potentially agree on that.
 

Rudolph

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Source?. . . If that's true I would say you can probably claim that.

I re-read what you said and I think I got the impression that you were claiming that China invented the virus to infect the world. But if you are just saying that China didn't take precautions to protect the rest of the world after they found the virus I could potentially agree on that.
By that logic you would have to say the same of our government.
 
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Hoosierhawkeye

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Economic conditions of the 50s are important, too. Not just the family stuff. There’s a reason the Green New Deal chose that moniker.
No I agree on that.

I'm just saying mocking the right for wanting to go back to the 50's isn't exactly entirely sensible. There is plenty of stuff from the 50's we should dump. But there is also a lot of positive things about the 1950's. I'm not sure if we can re-create those post war economic conditions entirely, but we certainly could re-create some of the conditions.

Another inconvenient fact though is that women in the work place (which we are not going to go back on and I don't necessarily think we should) is a cause of lower wages because with women in the workforce the labor pool is much much bigger.
 
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Hoosierhawkeye

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By that logic you would have to say the same of our government.
Probably. . . but we havn't even taken precautions to protect our own people.

The comparison would essentially be China saying: "Screw the rest of the world we protect our own" while the US is saying "It's all a hoax!" One is uncaring for other nations. . . the other one is just too stupid to look out for others.
 

Rudolph

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No I agree on that.

I'm just saying mocking the right for wanting to go back to the 50's isn't exactly entirely sensible. There is plenty of stuff from the 50's we should dump. But there is also a lot of positive things about the 1950's. I'm not sure if we can re-create those post war economic conditions entirely, but we certainly could re-create some of the conditions.

Another inconvenient fact though is that women in the work place (which we are not going to go back on and I don't necessarily think we should) is a cause of lower wages because with women in the workforce the labor pool is much much bigger.
Economic conditions and family structure are inextricably linked. A society with greater economic uncertainty and anxiety—those stressors affect stability of relationships. I don’t give a damn about the demographics of the workforce. Untie health cate to employment. Get the cost of education to where it was in the 50s. Home buying accessibility. Neighborhood schools and grocery stores. Want 50s style living in the US, just with updates for some racial and social issues? Great. That’s basically what dems want, but of course they’re called extreme leftists and commies and socialists and mentally ill for wanting this stuff.

Which is why the MAGA concept is so ironic. MAGA harkens to that era... guess what the tax rates were, what the investment in public education was, what the pay ratio of execs to workers was, what higher education cost, housing costs, health care costs, etc.
 

Rudolph

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Probably. . . but we havn't even taken precautions to protect our own people.

The comparison would essentially be China saying: "Screw the rest of the world we protect our own" while the US is saying "It's all a hoax!" One is uncaring for other nations. . . the other one is just too stupid to look out for others.
Irresponsibility is irresponsibility. Irresponsibility with viral spread is irresponsibility both within and across borders.
 

Hoosierhawkeye

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Economic conditions and family structure are inextricably linked. A society with greater economic uncertainty and anxiety—those stressors affect stability of relationships. I don’t give a damn about the demographics of the workforce. Untie health cate to employment. Get the cost of education to where it was in the 50s. Home buying accessibility. Neighborhood schools and grocery stores. Want 50s style living in the US, just with updates for some racial and social issues? Great. That’s basically what dems want, but of course they’re called extreme leftists and commies and socialists and mentally ill for wanting this stuff.

Which is why the MAGA concept is so ironic. MAGA harkens to that era... guess what the tax rates were, what the investment in public education was, what the pay ratio of execs to workers was, what higher education cost, housing costs, health care costs, etc.
True but they are not the only link. Divorce rates took off with no fault divorce laws too.

You are preaching to the choir here, I'm just pointing out that there are parts to it that liberals would be uncomfortable with as well.

Irresponsibility is irresponsibility. Irresponsibility with viral spread is irresponsibility both within and across borders.
I don't disagree with that. . . but we are right now too stupid to be responsible. We're being run by a child.
 
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Rudolph

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True but they are not the only link. Divorce rates took off with no fault divorce laws too.

You are preaching to the choir here, I'm just pointing out that there are parts to it that liberals would be uncomfortable with as well.



I don't disagree with that. . . but we are right now too stupid to be responsible. We're being run by a child.
We’re being run by a man who is a reflection of us. We aren’t victims in this. Trump is the fault of a society that went all-in on selfish self-serving individualistic greed.
 

Hoosierhawkeye

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We’re being run by a man who is a reflection of us. We aren’t victims in this. Trump is the fault of a society that went all-in on selfish self-serving individualistic greed.
I won't entirely disagree with that. He didn't even pull the plurality vote but he pulled a big enough share to win the electoral college.
 
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Titanhawk2

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"At the root of this transformation and decline lies an ever-widening chasm between Americans who have and those who have little or nothing." - Yet, those that have "little or nothing" for the most part do continue to have more and DO have more than the majority of the world's population. When a small group of people want to magnify the extremes as the norm in order to get more control, there will always be unrest
 
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ottumwan in tx

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Oct 26, 2002
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Interesting.

So, Obamacare was not the complete unraveling of the American economy and Judeo-Christian values in the West?

Hmm.
obamacare was a joke and it was built to fail and made to collapse under its own weight which it did and trump put a big nail in the obamacare coffin. but america was built to last.
 

ottumwan in tx

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We’re being run by a man who is a reflection of us. We aren’t victims in this. Trump is the fault of a society that went all-in on selfish self-serving individualistic greed.
which is why we shall gladly re elect
 

Hoosierhawkeye

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"At the root of this transformation and decline lies an ever-widening chasm between Americans who have and those who have little or nothing." - Yet, those that have "little or nothing" for the most part do continue to have more and DO have more than the majority of the world's population. When a small group of people want to magnify the extremes as the norm in order to get more control, there will always be unrest
Do they have more than similarly wealthy nations? Because I'm gonna go ahead and tell you they don't. A poor person in a similarly wealthy nation can see a doctor without worrying that it's going to take from their grocery bill. They can get prescription drugs.

In this country they can't do that.
 
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BlackNGoldBleeder

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obamacare was a joke and it was built to fail and made to collapse under its own weight which it did and trump put a big nail in the obamacare coffin. but america was built to last.
I have oppositional views to Obamacare but it is far from a joke. My biggest issue was imposing socialism through the private sector.

None of that is germane to the point. Cons ranted and raved about it as the precursor to the second Great Depression. The "greatest economy ever" was built while Obamacare was the law of the land. Your feelings are irrelevant to that fact.
 

86Hawkeye

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america is fine . a handful of cities are falling to communism. the rest of america is thriving.
Fair point. I'm not sure "thriving" is the word I'd use, but "hanging in there" works for me in the current crisis.

However, some very notable "blue" cities are losing their minds.
 
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blhawk

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Oct 30, 2001
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We’re being run by a man who is a reflection of us. We aren’t victims in this. Trump is the fault of a society that went all-in on selfish self-serving individualistic greed.
He's a reflection of a minority of us. If he had won the popular vote I'd agree with you but he's the beneficiary of a ridiculous way of choosing the president
 

ottumwan in tx

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I have oppositional views to Obamacare but it is far from a joke. My biggest issue was imposing socialism through the private sector.

None of that is germane to the point. Cons ranted and raved about it as the precursor to the second Great Depression. The "greatest economy ever" was built while Obamacare was the law of the land. Your feelings are irrelevant to that fact.
yeah the greatest economy was built after Trump put the nail in the coffin of Obamacare
 

ottumwan in tx

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Do they have more than similarly wealthy nations? Because I'm gonna go ahead and tell you they don't. A poor person in a similarly wealthy nation can see a doctor without worrying that it's going to take from their grocery bill. They can get prescription drugs.

In this country they can't do that.
research 1986 emtala
 

UKGrad93

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Jun 20, 2007
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No I agree on that.

I'm just saying mocking the right for wanting to go back to the 50's isn't exactly entirely sensible. There is plenty of stuff from the 50's we should dump. But there is also a lot of positive things about the 1950's. I'm not sure if we can re-create those post war economic conditions entirely, but we certainly could re-create some of the conditions.

Another inconvenient fact though is that women in the work place (which we are not going to go back on and I don't necessarily think we should) is a cause of lower wages because with women in the workforce the labor pool is much much bigger.
Part of the problem with comparing any decade to the 1950s is that the US was one of the few industrial nations that hadn't been bombed out a few years before. Most of Europe was a pile of rubble and we were untouched. That gave us a huge advantage.