This board is going to Hell.

Coach4ever

HR All-American
Feb 3, 2004
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Originally posted by iowahawkeyes1986:
"People either accept all of the history, tradition, and faith built up over 2,000 years or they don't. There's a lot of documented cases that support the existence of God, but if I were to start citing them the "non believers" would simply choose to belittle / not believe them. "Show me the facts!!! Show me the mathematics equations that prove without a doubt that God exists."

As if it were all a big scam..... "


LOL I'm sure you think there are documented and supported cased.

"Can someone prove to me that God doesn't exist?"

You are the one asserting there is something that exists thus the burden of proof is on you to prove it does exist. Otherwise, we might all just as well say unicorns and fairies and all other mythical creatures exist. Prove to me they don't somewhere in the universe.

"Quantum mechanics or whatever, what kicked off the whole cycle of events that led to where we are today?"

Whats funny is you assume that the universe needs a creation, something to kick it off in your words, but you don't apply that same concept for god. So basically you say "the universe can't just exist or come from nothing," but then you say "god can just exist." You change your logic just to suit your own needs. Logically you should continue on and say there is a higher god that created the god that created us, an infinite regression.

If you want to understand Quantum Mechanics, you are going to have to read up on it on your own. There is no way I could go through all the details of why such and such a thing happens or what laws apply and why. A good book to read is "In Search of Shrodingers Cat: Quantum Physics and Reality" by John Gibbin. It gives a good look at how bizarre the universe really is.

Based on this post can I make the following assumptions:

1. You remove all possibility of the supernatural in your though process.
2. You can't even prove the theories that you say are correct without a shadow of doubt.
 

iowahawkeyes1986

HR Legend
Jul 14, 2003
11,849
2
36
")Nor does it rule God out of it. If quantum physics says it doesn't, then, enlighten me on what quantum physics has created that is living. "

Uhh nothing suggest the existence of god. Quantum physics created you. It's an explanation of what atoms do.

"B)I know the Big Bang has nothing to do with the rotation of the plants. It has to do with the creation of the universe. I was using that as an exapmle of the bang (explosion or whatever) that defies what usually happens after a explosion (chaos not order). If a large object struck these moons to make them spin the opposite way 1 Billion years ago, who was here to witness/record this event?"

It doesn't defy anything in the laws of physics. Infact our laws explain it pretty well and we can see what happened pretty close to the point of the Big Bang itself.

We don't need to be there to witness it. Its recorded in the planets and moons itself. Do you know where Saturn got it's rings? Moons collided and smashed eachother up. Those are remainders of former moons. You know something else that suggests this? We get hit by comets and asteroids, why couldn't we get hit in an early solar system full of proto planets? Also, one of the moons of Neptune is doomed to plummet into the planet itself, pretty good evidence something big could have hit Earth as well.

"D) Supernova, asteroids, certain elements and this is why our solar system was created? There are supernovas that are great candidates for frying us if they were oriented in the right direction. What could be the reason that they haven't fried us yet?"

Our galaxy is a pretty big place. That early supernova is what kept our star at a reasonable size, by blowing away its surrounding dust so it could no longer accumulate so much matter and turn into some supergiant star living only a few million years. We have evidence that Earth has been hit by such a cosmic storm in the past, it is actually correlated to an extinction period on Earth. The reason we haven't been hit is that they are very unlikely to happen close enough to us to hurt us, and beyond that they have to be aimed almost directly at us in terms of the jets that shoot out from the poles of the star. We certainly could get hit again in the future just like with asteroids..
 

iowahawkeyes1986

HR Legend
Jul 14, 2003
11,849
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36
Originally posted by Coach4ever:

Originally posted by iowahawkeyes1986:


Originally posted by Coach4ever:



Originally posted by iowahawkeyes1986:
A theory? Yes. A scientific theory? No. Big difference. Evolution has observable testable evidence and it attempts to explain something through logical arguments. Creationism has no observable or testable evidence and thus it doesn't use logical arguments to arrive at it's conclusions. Instead, it starts with a conclusion and then finds anything to support it instead of the other way around.

If you could make creationism fit any of those categories it would be taken more seriously. But the problem is you can't.




This post was edited on 10/3 9:40 PM by iowahawkeyes1986

Evolution is testable? What has evolved in the fossil records?

Galapagos.

Why don't you just look up evolution on wiki, you'll find plenty of good stuff.

laugh.gif

Wiki cities pretty good sources on scientific information, otherwise I wouldn't like it. They've done studies to show wikipedia is pretty accurate contrary to popular belief, especially when it comes to widely known things like evolution, the big bang, and quantum theory.
 

iowahawkeyes1986

HR Legend
Jul 14, 2003
11,849
2
36
Originally posted by Coach4ever:

Originally posted by iowahawkeyes1986:
"People either accept all of the history, tradition, and faith built up over 2,000 years or they don't. There's a lot of documented cases that support the existence of God, but if I were to start citing them the "non believers" would simply choose to belittle / not believe them. "Show me the facts!!! Show me the mathematics equations that prove without a doubt that God exists."

As if it were all a big scam..... "


LOL I'm sure you think there are documented and supported cased.

"Can someone prove to me that God doesn't exist?"

You are the one asserting there is something that exists thus the burden of proof is on you to prove it does exist. Otherwise, we might all just as well say unicorns and fairies and all other mythical creatures exist. Prove to me they don't somewhere in the universe.

"Quantum mechanics or whatever, what kicked off the whole cycle of events that led to where we are today?"

Whats funny is you assume that the universe needs a creation, something to kick it off in your words, but you don't apply that same concept for god. So basically you say "the universe can't just exist or come from nothing," but then you say "god can just exist." You change your logic just to suit your own needs. Logically you should continue on and say there is a higher god that created the god that created us, an infinite regression.

If you want to understand Quantum Mechanics, you are going to have to read up on it on your own. There is no way I could go through all the details of why such and such a thing happens or what laws apply and why. A good book to read is "In Search of Shrodingers Cat: Quantum Physics and Reality" by John Gibbin. It gives a good look at how bizarre the universe really is.

Based on this post can I make the following assumptions:

1. You remove all possibility of the supernatural in your though process.
2. You can't even prove the theories that you say are correct without a shadow of doubt.

"You remove all possibility of the supernatural in your though process"

Give me some hard core proof something supernatural exists. You don't have it. I can equally say the tooth fairy exists. Prove to me it doesn't.

"2. You can't even prove the theories that you say are correct without a shadow of doubt."


The problem with this is we can actually observe and find evidence to support the theories. You have nothing besides faith to support your beliefs, which is worthless when it comes to reality.
 

iowahawkeyes1986

HR Legend
Jul 14, 2003
11,849
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36
"Based on this post can I make the following assumptions:

1. You remove all possibility of the supernatural in your though process.
2. You can't even prove the theories that you say are correct without a shadow of doubt."



Btw, you can't prove anything supernatural HAS EVER taken place on this Earth. You don't have once shred of evidence to support any of your beliefs. There is a reason science ignores you.
 

Coach4ever

HR All-American
Feb 3, 2004
2,606
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36
Originally posted by iowahawkeyes1986:
")Nor does it rule God out of it. If quantum physics says it doesn't, then, enlighten me on what quantum physics has created that is living. "

Uhh nothing suggest the existence of god. Quantum physics created you. It's an explanation of what atoms do.

"B)I know the Big Bang has nothing to do with the rotation of the plants. It has to do with the creation of the universe. I was using that as an exapmle of the bang (explosion or whatever) that defies what usually happens after a explosion (chaos not order). If a large object struck these moons to make them spin the opposite way 1 Billion years ago, who was here to witness/record this event?"

It doesn't defy anything in the laws of physics. Infact our laws explain it pretty well and we can see what happened pretty close to the point of the Big Bang itself.

We don't need to be there to witness it. Its recorded in the planets and moons itself. Do you know where Saturn got it's rings? Moons collided and smashed eachother up. Those are remainders of former moons. You know something else that suggests this? We get hit by comets and asteroids, why couldn't we get hit in an early solar system full of proto planets? Also, one of the moons of Neptune is doomed to plummet into the planet itself, pretty good evidence something big could have hit Earth as well.

"D) Supernova, asteroids, certain elements and this is why our solar system was created? There are supernovas that are great candidates for frying us if they were oriented in the right direction. What could be the reason that they haven't fried us yet?"

Our galaxy is a pretty big place. That early supernova is what kept our star at a reasonable size, by blowing away its surrounding dust so it could no longer accumulate so much matter and turn into some supergiant star living only a few million years. We have evidence that Earth has been hit by such a cosmic storm in the past, it is actually correlated to an extinction period on Earth. The reason we haven't been hit is that they are very unlikely to happen close enough to us to hurt us, and beyond that they have to be aimed almost directly at us in terms of the jets that shoot out from the poles of the star. We certainly could get hit again in the future just like with asteroids..

So everything that happens in this world is by radom chance?
 

iowahawkeyes1986

HR Legend
Jul 14, 2003
11,849
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"So you've listed some of the details regarding why you do not believe in God. But these are all still theories, right? What in your studies indicates that this "just happened" without any other action to kick it all off? That thought makes no sense to me BTW...."

Quantum Mechanics has been pretty well verified. It might need fine tuning, but the overall theory is correct. The same goes for evolution and the Big Bang(which has recently incorporated inflationary theory).

You ask where all this came from, how it could have just happened, but you don't ask the same question about your god. You are just fine believing god just exists. Why is it so hard to do it for the universe?

'Last time I posted on the subject, you didn't take my comments seriously on one of many artifacts from the time of Jesus Christ (the Shroud of Turin.) I'm willing to listen to your arguments on the subject...are you willing to consider some of mine? Or are you going to immediately discount them as false / fake? If you do, it sounds like you are just willing to listen to facts that fit your story..."

I don't take your posts seriously because the shroud has been discussed before on this board, probably somewhere in the legendary forums I'm sure. There are others on this board that are wiser in this area than I am that have shown pretty conclusively its bogus.
 

Coach4ever

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Feb 3, 2004
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Originally posted by iowahawkeyes1986:
"Based on this post can I make the following assumptions:

1. You remove all possibility of the supernatural in your though process.
2. You can't even prove the theories that you say are correct without a shadow of doubt."



Btw, you can't prove anything supernatural HAS EVER taken place on this Earth. You don't have once shred of evidence to support any of your beliefs. There is a reason science ignores you.

Your comments are interesting. You can't prove anything supernatural didn't happen. You will quote evolution but it is a theory that is far from being proven. Science doesn't ignore me at all. What they ignore is the possibility of a supernatural event. There is no place for God in their theories. Then, they argue the theories as fact.

When I began posting, I said if one takes a honest look at the evidence. An honest look, imo, allows for the possibility of the supernatural. As a scientist, you have to look at all possibilities. For some scientist, they have not ruled out the possibility of the supernatural with the same theories that you have. How can they come up with a different conclusion from you? Oh yeah, they are not real scientist.
 

iowahawkeyes1986

HR Legend
Jul 14, 2003
11,849
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"You can't prove anything supernatural didn't happen."


Prove to me fairies don't exist.

You just can't argue logic with the religious.

"For some scientist, they have not ruled out the possibility of the supernatural with the same theories that you have. How can they come up with a different conclusion from you? Oh yeah, they are not real scientist."

The definition of science by default excludes god because god is not testable or observable, meaning we can't examine it. You just want to change the definition to fit your beliefs. Btw, none of these so called "scientist" of yours have ever once brought any evidence forward that has stood up to criticism. Not one.
This post was edited on 10/3 10:43 PM by iowahawkeyes1986
 

MarionHawkeye

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Jan 13, 2003
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'86;

OK, I'm about a post behind on this thread....I apologize for my inability to keep up with you youngsters. I've not found or heard of anything regarding fairies or unicorns, so I think we can leave those out of the subject for now...

Also, I am going to have to distance myself from Hounded here just a bit....while I respect his faith and commitment (as someone else posted), Roman Catholics do not go by the Bible alone, but also by their faith and tradition established over 2,000 years. To try and take each word and phrase from the Bible literally is not a good idea (I believe that when John wrote The Book of Revelations he was considered by some to be a madman.) I also understand why some have posted that if you don't take the words literally, then you are leaving it up to humans (and their lack of perfection) in the interpretation of the text. There's been a few questions over the years about that and some have gone their own way (as evidenced by the fact that there are today people who are "Christians" but not all "Catholics". That's extremely unfortunate, but another topic...)

I accept God's existence because
1) I was raised by parents who are Roman Catholic
2) In addition to the Bible, history, and tradition, I accept what I consider to be true artifacts available today that prove his and Jesus Christ's existence. The Shroud (as I mentioned before), Holy Eucharists that have turned into true heart muscle after being Consecrated....you'll probably laugh and belittle it all (or already have), but scientists have tested and tried to explain these things without success.

BTW - doesn't a true scientist (as apparently you believe yourself to be), check these things out and establish what is really going on before calling them false? Have you done this already?

I really think you should take a closer look at things. I'm posting on this thread not to contend that you all are idiots, but that you've either been misguided by someone or that you haven't been fortunate enough to be introduced to a life of faith at all. Based on your level of conviction, I am guessing it is the former.....

One other thing - I do not consider myself to be "holier" or "above you" or anyone on this board because I believe in God. We are all sinners and will be judged in time...
 

Hollow Ed

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Apr 13, 2006
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Originally posted by MarionHawkeye:
Hounded - I would say that most reportedly atheistic or agnostic people that are posting in the religious threads are, for the most part, simply baiting you. [Exceptions are iowahawkeyes1986 and jrotten, who clearly have a man crush on Carl Sagan and some serious anger issues against believers, respectively.] I think there's possibly a glimmer of hope for people like HollowEd, but he's going to have to get over the "prove it to me without a doubt" idea to have any chance.

People either accept all of the history, tradition, and faith built up over 2,000 years or they don't. There's a lot of documented cases that support the existence of God, but if I were to start citing them the "non believers" would simply choose to belittle / not believe them. "Show me the facts!!! Show me the mathematics equations that prove without a doubt that God exists."

As if it were all a big scam.....
rolleyes.gif


Can someone prove to me that God doesn't exist? Let's hear it. Quantum mechanics or whatever, what kicked off the whole cycle of events that led to where we are today?
I think you meant the comment about me in a kindly way, MarionHawkeye, and I thank you for that. I don't wish to disappoint but the likelihood that something resembling the modern version of the Abrahamic god exists is diminishingly small.

Proving the non-existence of such a god is not actually that hard - or wouldn't be if believers would ever get on the record with a clear definition. Care to do so? That's not to say that some sort of god couldn't exist. But the Abrahamic god has been vested with so many logical absurdities over the millennial (things like omniscience and omnipotence, for example) that discussing God's putative existence with anyone who thinks those concepts make sense is a futile effort from the start.

If, however, someone were to make more modest godhood claims ... there could be an interesting discussion.
 

TAikin

HR Legend
Gold Member
Oct 1, 2001
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Originally posted by Coach4ever:

Originally posted by iowahawkeyes1986:
"Based on this post can I make the following assumptions:

1. You remove all possibility of the supernatural in your though process.
2. You can't even prove the theories that you say are correct without a shadow of doubt."



Btw, you can't prove anything supernatural HAS EVER taken place on this Earth. You don't have once shred of evidence to support any of your beliefs. There is a reason science ignores you.

Your comments are interesting. You can't prove anything supernatural didn't happen. You will quote evolution but it is a theory that is far from being proven. Science doesn't ignore me at all. What they ignore is the possibility of a supernatural event. There is no place for God in their theories. Then, they argue the theories as fact.

When I began posting, I said if one takes a honest look at the evidence. An honest look, imo, allows for the possibility of the supernatural. As a scientist, you have to look at all possibilities. For some scientist, they have not ruled out the possibility of the supernatural with the same theories that you have. How can they come up with a different conclusion from you? Oh yeah, they are not real scientist.

"possibilities" tend to get ruled out after they fail to produce a single shread of measurable evidence after numerous attempts. I would be remiss if I didn't clue you in to the fact you are fighting an uphill battle simply on the basics of linguistics... "supernatural" is rife with the implication of things that do not occur in the natural (ie. our) world.
 

iowahawkeyes1986

HR Legend
Jul 14, 2003
11,849
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36
Originally posted by MarionHawkeye:
'86;

OK, I'm about a post behind on this thread....I apologize for my inability to keep up with you youngsters. I've not found or heard of anything regarding fairies or unicorns, so I think we can leave those out of the subject for now...

Also, I am going to have to distance myself from Hounded here just a bit....while I respect his faith and commitment (as someone else posted), Roman Catholics do not go by the Bible alone, but also by their faith and tradition established over 2,000 years. To try and take each word and phrase from the Bible literally is not a good idea (I believe that when John wrote The Book of Revelations he was considered by some to be a madman.) I also understand why some have posted that if you don't take the words literally, then you are leaving it up to humans (and their lack of perfection) in the interpretation of the text. There's been a few questions over the years about that and some have gone their own way (as evidenced by the fact that there are today people who are "Christians" but not all "Catholics". That's extremely unfortunate, but another topic...)

I accept God's existence because
1) I was raised by parents who are Roman Catholic
2) In addition to the Bible, history, and tradition, I accept what I consider to be true artifacts available today that prove his and Jesus Christ's existence. The Shroud (as I mentioned before), Holy Eucharists that have turned into true heart muscle after being Consecrated....you'll probably laugh and belittle it all (or already have), but scientists have tested and tried to explain these things without success.

BTW - doesn't a true scientist (as apparently you believe yourself to be), check these things out and establish what is really going on before calling them false? Have you done this already?

I really think you should take a closer look at things. I'm posting on this thread not to contend that you all are idiots, but that you've either been misguided by someone or that you haven't been fortunate enough to be introduced to a life of faith at all. Based on your level of conviction, I am guessing it is the former.....

One other thing - I do not consider myself to be "holier" or "above you" or anyone on this board because I believe in God. We are all sinners and will be judged in time...

I don't have a problem with a belief in god if you accept basic scientific theories that are pretty heavily supported. Why can't you just say God started the Big Bang and hands off from there? Thats a much more logical argument than attach all these little details to it that complicate it even more. I don't agree there was a god that started the universe because there is no evidence for it. But I respect people who are willing to atleast accept scientific theories that are pretty well established. I know many people who do exactly that.
This post was edited on 10/3 11:00 PM by iowahawkeyes1986
 

THEbearbull

HR All-State
Aug 27, 2007
672
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can god create a tit so big he himself cannot squeeze? what about a woman so horny he himself cant satisfy?

on a real note i use to try an believe i really did try but there was always this nagging feeling in the back of my head saying wtf are they talking about? then when a youth counselor told me that was the devil i basically gave up on it
 

Coach4ever

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Feb 3, 2004
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Originally posted by iowahawkeyes1986:

You ask where all this came from, how it could have just happened, but you don't ask the same question about your god. You are just fine believing god just exists. Why is it so hard to do it for the universe

Great question!! Jesus of Nazareth was not just another face on an already populated religious scene. Jesus made a claim, which was never made by any of the founders of the world's major religions. He claimed to be God--a claim which Buddha, Confucious, nor Mohammed never made. Such a claim cannot be ignored, it must be believed or refuted. If Jesus is truly divine , then His coming to earth is the most important event in history. If Jesus is God, then His message of redemption is the most important message we will hear. Back to the subject, Jesus claimed that God made the world.

If Jesus is God--then he commented on who created the world in Mark 13:19.
 

iowahawkeyes1986

HR Legend
Jul 14, 2003
11,849
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Originally posted by Coach4ever:

Originally posted by iowahawkeyes1986:

You ask where all this came from, how it could have just happened, but you don't ask the same question about your god. You are just fine believing god just exists. Why is it so hard to do it for the universe

Great question!! Jesus of Nazareth was not just another face on an already populated religious scene. Jesus made a claim, which was never made by any of the founders of the world's major religions. He claimed to be God--a claim which Buddha, Confucious, nor Mohammed never made. Such a claim cannot be ignored, it must be believed or refuted. If Jesus is truly divine , then His coming to earth is the most important event in history. If Jesus is God, then His message of redemption is the most important message we will hear. Back to the subject, Jesus claimed that God made the world.

If Jesus is God--then he commented on who created the world in Mark 13:19.

LOL please.
 

TAikin

HR Legend
Gold Member
Oct 1, 2001
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Originally posted by Coach4ever:

Originally posted by iowahawkeyes1986:

You ask where all this came from, how it could have just happened, but you don't ask the same question about your god. You are just fine believing god just exists. Why is it so hard to do it for the universe

Great question!! Jesus of Nazareth was not just another face on an already populated religious scene. Jesus made a claim, which was never made by any of the founders of the world's major religions. He claimed to be God--a claim which Buddha, Confucious, nor Mohammed never made. Such a claim cannot be ignored, it must be believed or refuted. If Jesus is truly divine , then His coming to earth is the most important event in history. If Jesus is God, then His message of redemption is the most important message we will hear. Back to the subject, Jesus claimed that God made the world.

If Jesus is God--then he commented on who created the world in Mark 13:19.

There are a lot of people who weren't founders of major religions who claimed to be God. A lot of them live in downtown LA.
 

MarionHawkeye

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Jan 13, 2003
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I don't have a problem with a belief in god if you accept basic scientific theories that are pretty heavily supported. Why can't you just say God started the Big Bang and hands off from there? Thats a much more logical argument than attach all these little details to it that complicate it even more. I don't agree there was a god that started the universe because there is no evidence for it. But I respect people who are willing to at least accept scientific theories that are pretty well established. I know many people who do exactly that.

This post was edited on 10/3 11:00 PM by iowahawkeyes1986

That's the first time I've seen you post such comments, so I apologize if you have before and I've missed it.

I'm not above accepting scientific facts, and there's obviously evidence that the Universe has evolved over a long period of time. I simply believe that God started it (tho I can't provide you any concrete evidence that can be "proved" by theorems) and I believe that He has had a hand in how it has been shaped.
 

Coach4ever

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Feb 3, 2004
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Originally posted by iowahawkeyes1986:

Originally posted by Coach4ever:


Originally posted by iowahawkeyes1986:

You ask where all this came from, how it could have just happened, but you don't ask the same question about your god. You are just fine believing god just exists. Why is it so hard to do it for the universe

Great question!! Jesus of Nazareth was not just another face on an already populated religious scene. Jesus made a claim, which was never made by any of the founders of the world's major religions. He claimed to be God--a claim which Buddha, Confucious, nor Mohammed never made. Such a claim cannot be ignored, it must be believed or refuted. If Jesus is truly divine , then His coming to earth is the most important event in history. If Jesus is God, then His message of redemption is the most important message we will hear. Back to the subject, Jesus claimed that God made the world.

If Jesus is God--then he commented on who created the world in Mark 13:19.

LOL please.

What? Not possible? Then, why?
 

HoundedHawk

HR Legend
Oct 2, 2001
20,350
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Originally posted by MarionHawkeye:
'86;

Also, I am going to have to distance myself from Hounded here just a bit....while I respect his faith and commitment (as someone else posted), Roman Catholics do not go by the Bible alone, but also by their faith and tradition established over 2,000 years. To try and take each word and phrase from the Bible literally is not a good idea.
I fully recognize there are countless figures of speech and symbols in the Bible. But I'm not going to take as symbolic that which is spoken of earlier in the Bible as literal by inspired interpreters, later on in the text.
 

iowahawkeyes1986

HR Legend
Jul 14, 2003
11,849
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36
Originally posted by Coach4ever:

Originally posted by iowahawkeyes1986:


Originally posted by Coach4ever:



Originally posted by iowahawkeyes1986:

You ask where all this came from, how it could have just happened, but you don't ask the same question about your god. You are just fine believing god just exists. Why is it so hard to do it for the universe

Great question!! Jesus of Nazareth was not just another face on an already populated religious scene. Jesus made a claim, which was never made by any of the founders of the world's major religions. He claimed to be God--a claim which Buddha, Confucious, nor Mohammed never made. Such a claim cannot be ignored, it must be believed or refuted. If Jesus is truly divine , then His coming to earth is the most important event in history. If Jesus is God, then His message of redemption is the most important message we will hear. Back to the subject, Jesus claimed that God made the world.

If Jesus is God--then he commented on who created the world in Mark 13:19.

LOL please.

What? Not possible? Then, why?

I suppose you just ignore everyone elses claims about being god? Several people have done it throughout history. What makes Jesus different? You can't prove the other person isn't god anymore than you can prove Jesus is god.
 

HoundedHawk

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Oct 2, 2001
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Originally posted by Coach4ever:
Based on this post can I make the following assumptions:

1. You remove all possibility of the supernatural in your though process.
2. You can't even prove the theories that you say are correct without a shadow of doubt.
This is the exact reason I quit reading 1986's posts last year. He's intellectually dishonest. He actually indicated there was a 0% chance that things were created, and that it was a 100% fact that all things came from absolutely nothing. I gave him multiple chances to alter his thoughts, but he chose not to. It's a waste of time.
This post was edited on 10/3 11:46 PM by HoundedHawk
 

TAikin

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Oct 1, 2001
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Originally posted by MarionHawkeye:
Hounded - I would say that most reportedly atheistic or agnostic people that are posting in the religious threads are, for the most part, simply baiting you. [Exceptions are iowahawkeyes1986 and jrotten, who clearly have a man crush on Carl Sagan and some serious anger issues against believers, respectively.] I think there's possibly a glimmer of hope for people like HollowEd, but he's going to have to get over the "prove it to me without a doubt" idea to have any chance.

People either accept all of the history, tradition, and faith built up over 2,000 years or they don't. There's a lot of documented cases that support the existence of God, but if I were to start citing them the "non believers" would simply choose to belittle / not believe them. "Show me the facts!!! Show me the mathematics equations that prove without a doubt that God exists."

As if it were all a big scam.....
rolleyes.gif


Can someone prove to me that God doesn't exist? Let's hear it. Quantum mechanics or whatever, what kicked off the whole cycle of events that led to where we are today?

A scam implies there is someone behind it...

This is a sense is the root of limitations on human perception in many cases. That is, personification to the level to assume some humanoid origin as the causality behind any phenomenon.
 

iowahawkeyes1986

HR Legend
Jul 14, 2003
11,849
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Originally posted by HoundedHawk:

Originally posted by Coach4ever:
Based on this post can I make the following assumptions:

1. You remove all possibility of the supernatural in your though process.
2. You can't even prove the theories that you say are correct without a shadow of doubt.
This is the exact reason I quit reading 1986's posts last year. He's intellectually dishonest.

LOL yeah that was it.
 

Coach4ever

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Okay, I'll take a shot. The Old Testament is fillled with promises of the coming of the Messiah. Jesus is one of over 40 Jewish men who have claimed to be the Messiah (excluding the one's in L.A.), so how do we know that Jesus of Nazareth is really the promised Messiah?

The OLd Testament contains hundreds of specific messianic prophecies about the Messiah. Because of the volume and specific nature of the prophecies, accidental fulfillment of these prophecies is impossible according to the law of probability. Jesus is the only person in history who has fulfilled everyone of those prophecies. These prophecies, found in the Old Testament, written over 400 years in advance of Jesus' birth, serve as a screening process for anyone who claims to be the Messiah.

The fact that Jesus could fulfill all the messianic prophecies reveals the intervention of a supernatural authority. However, some would object, "What if Jesus manipulated His life to try an become the Messiah? This is impossible in light of the fact that many of Jesus' enemies fulfilled many of the prophecies through there own actions.
 

TAikin

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Originally posted by Coach4ever:
Okay, I'll take a shot. The Old Testament is fillled with promises of the coming of the Messiah. Jesus is one of over 40 Jewish men who have claimed to be the Messiah (excluding the one's in L.A.), so how do we know that Jesus of Nazareth is really the promised Messiah?

The OLd Testament contains hundreds of specific messianic prophecies about the Messiah. Because of the volume and specific nature of the prophecies, accidental fulfillment of these prophecies is impossible according to the law of probability. Jesus is the only person in history who has fulfilled everyone of those prophecies. These prophecies, found in the Old Testament, written over 400 years in advance of Jesus' birth, serve as a screening process for anyone who claims to be the Messiah.

The fact that Jesus could fulfill all the messianic prophecies reveals the intervention of a supernatural authority. However, some would object, "What if Jesus manipulated His life to try an become the Messiah? This is impossible in light of the fact that many of Jesus' enemies fulfilled many of the prophecies through there own actions.

Have you considered the possibility that the various authors of the Gospels of the new testatment, writing them several lifetimes after the death of Christ, "rigged the voting" in favor of Jesus? Have you ever heard of the Gnostic Gospels? Have you ever read of on the dubious lineage of the Bible? Did you ever consider it serves a purpose?

And that doesn't even take into account the fact the Old Testament is far from a slam dunk factual account of history. Most Jews don't read it even remotely literally.
 

DavidHawk324

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Originally posted by Coach4ever:
Okay, I'll take a shot. The Old Testament is fillled with promises of the coming of the Messiah. Jesus is one of over 40 Jewish men who have claimed to be the Messiah (excluding the one's in L.A.), so how do we know that Jesus of Nazareth is really the promised Messiah?

The OLd Testament contains hundreds of specific messianic prophecies about the Messiah. Because of the volume and specific nature of the prophecies, accidental fulfillment of these prophecies is impossible according to the law of probability. Jesus is the only person in history who has fulfilled everyone of those prophecies. These prophecies, found in the Old Testament, written over 400 years in advance of Jesus' birth, serve as a screening process for anyone who claims to be the Messiah.

The fact that Jesus could fulfill all the messianic prophecies reveals the intervention of a supernatural authority. However, some would object, "What if Jesus manipulated His life to try an become the Messiah? This is impossible in light of the fact that many of Jesus' enemies fulfilled many of the prophecies through there own actions.

If this is the case, shouldn't all Jews be Christians? I mean the Old Testament is truly there book. If he met all of these conditions you speak of, shouldn't modern Judiasm be non-existant?
 

jbincr

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Originally posted by Coach4ever:
The OLd Testament contains hundreds of specific messianic prophecies about the Messiah. Because of the volume and specific nature of the prophecies, accidental fulfillment of these prophecies is impossible according to the law of probability.
There is no "law of probability" that proves anything to be impossible or possible for that matter. This statement makes me wonder if you really understand any of the pseudo-science you've spouted in earlier posts.

This is why I admire Hounded, even though I don't agree with him -- he's obviously done more than just search the Web and Barnes and Noble for tidbits that support his faith.
This post was edited on 10/4 6:56 AM by jbincr
 
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RobertIngersoll

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The OLd Testament contains hundreds of specific messianic prophecies about the Messiah. Because of the volume and specific nature of the prophecies, accidental fulfillment of these prophecies is impossible according to the law of probability.

Really? Hundreds? I'm curious if you can give me, say, three. These should follow this criteria:

1. The prophecies must be verifiably made hundreds of years in advance.

2. The fulfillment could not be easily done intentionally. For instance, riding into town on an ass is far too easy. I could do it and claim that I am the Messiah.

3. The acts that fulfilled the prophecies must be historically documented independent of the bible. That is to say, the bible cannot be used to prove itself.
 

jrotten666

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Originally posted by overeasy:

Originally posted by jrotten666:


Originally posted by overeasy:
A mistake being made by many in this thread is not acknowledging that Hounded's views and postings do not represent all, or I would contend even most, serious and faithful Christian values.



This post was edited on 10/3 5:08 PM by overeasy

I don't agree with this. If the Bible and Christianity are true, then I think Hounded and a couple others on this board do represent Christianity. And I'm honestly not just saying that because it helps Atheism. Hounded's dinosaur posts certainly don't win him a lot of converts.

Hounded does know the Bible and he probably does follow it as much as a himan being could. The divorce issue would be a prime example of this. Hounded has a Biblically based view on divorce. It is at least grounded in something, which is the Bible. Now I'm not agreeing that the Bible is truth, but it certainly is more than just saying "I'm a Christian, but I don'treally follow the doctrines as laid out in the Bible".

And a lot of Christians don't even read the Bible and a lot of the ones that do probably don't follow its teachings very close. I have no doubt that Hounded has deep faith, more than most on this board who label themselves Christian.

Think about it. If the Bible is truth, then Hounded's first post on this thread was pretty much on target.
Please allow me to point out to you and Robert that I didn't say "most Christians," I said "serious and faithful Christians." I do not believe that Hounded's literal views are shared by most Christian theologians, main-stream protestant Christian leaders, Roman Catholic leadership, the Orthodox Church leadership, etc. His views are certainly widespread, but they are often at odds with the preponderance of theological thought. Evangelicals and literalists do NOT have a corner on God's truth. Nobody does. But some people will gladly lead you to believe that they do.

I admire Hounded's deep faith and his fidelity to that faith. But that doesn't mean his interpretations of scripture are, if you'll excuse the term, gospel.

Let's do use the Roman Catholic Church as a representation of Christianity. That's even better than Hounded as far as bolstering heathenism.



But what you are really saying here is that there is no truth in Christianity. I don't have a big problem with that. I can respect somebody that says they believe on the basis of faith. I thinl they are wrong and being unscientific in their worldview, but whatever trips your trigger.

But you do realize that if there is no truth in religion, then you really cannot make claims on the world, such as morality, origins, etc. And if you claim the Bible holds truths, then how do you determine which ones? Given a lack of historical or other evidence, of which there is plenty lack, you pick and choose.
This post was edited on 10/4 7:48 AM by jrotten666
 

Coach4ever

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Originally posted by jbincr:

Originally posted by Coach4ever:
The OLd Testament contains hundreds of specific messianic prophecies about the Messiah. Because of the volume and specific nature of the prophecies, accidental fulfillment of these prophecies is impossible according to the law of probability.
There is no "law of probability" that proves anything to be impossible or possible for that matter. This statement makes me wonder if you really understand any of the pseudo-science you've spouted in earlier posts.

This is why I admire Hounded, even though I don't agree with him -- he's obviously done more than just search the Web and Barnes and Noble for tidbits that support his faith.

This post was edited on 10/4 6:56 AM by jbincr

LOL about the web & Barnes & Noble comment. It is amazing the insight that you have concerning my life.

If it is shown that Jesus didn't fulfill the messianic prophecies, then Christianity would not be true. No other religion has such a strigent test imposed upon its leader. In Jesus Christ, 456 identifiable prophecies were uniquely fulfilled. The chances of any man fulfilling just 48 of such prophecies is a probability of 10 to the power of 157. This figure, calculated by Peter Stoner, Professor Emeritus of Science at Westmont College, has been confirmed by the committee of the American Scientific Affiliation. The fulfillment of messianic prophecies as such a high level of probability indicates a supernatural agent. The fact that Jesus is the Messiah is not just a clever guess, nor could Jesus have been an imposter who carefully arranged the fulfillment of all the messianic prophecies. To reject Jesus as Messiah requires an unbelief which runs counter to the laws of probability.
 

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