I was listening to Basch’s podcast previewing the Iowa-PSU dual the other day, and they got onto the topic of dual vs. tournament scoring. Fellers mentioned a team with ten 7th place finishers. He said that someone like RBY and another AA could outscore the entire ten in a tournament setting, but in a dual setting it’s going to be damn tough to beat the team with ten AAs. That got me wondering about the actual numbers so I decided to dig into all of the variations of points that AAs can score.
My initial thought was that champions/finalists are a bit over-rewarded vs. lower AAs, but after digging through it all I’m not sure what I would change. The most noticeable thing is that champs get three more points above the guy they defeat in the placement match vs. the 3rd-8th matches (i.e., four more points than the runner-up vs. only one more point for 3rd over 4th, etc.). That’s a big reward, especially if you have multiple champs, but I think it is probably deserved given how damn hard it is to win a title.
FWIW, Fellers overstated the extremes with his example. Ten 7th placers would be a minimum of 60 team points (excluding any bonus). To tie that with two guys, you would need two champs pinning their way through.
Anyway, after I crunched all the numbers, I figured I share it here to see what you all though about the way tournaments are scored vs. duals. I’m not sure I would change anything. Maybe dropping the placement points for first down a couple but that level of achievement also deserves something extra. This also makes me wonder the fewest number of qualifiers a team has ever had and won a team title. Can’t be less than eight right? Also, would a dual team championship ever be feasible? I think it would be insanely entertaining.
Long post alert, but I couldn’t figure a way to shorten this up. Here’s what I figured for total points for every possible route to each spot on the podium (errors certainly possible):
Placement Points
1st: 16 points
2nd: 12 points
3rd: 10 points
4th: 9 points
5th: 7 points
6th: 6 points
7th: 4 points
8th: 3 points
Advancement Points
Championship side: 1 point per match won
Wrestlebacks: 0.5 points per match won
(Excluding the final placement matches)
(For byes, points awarded for the bye if wrestler wins next match)
Bonus Points
Fall/default/forfeit/DQ: 2 points
Tech fall: 1.5 points
Major: 1 point
Possible Points by All-Americans
1st Place
-20 advancement and placement points (16 placement and 4 advancement) (max bonus 30 points)
2nd Place
-16 advancement and placement points (12 placement and 4 advancement) (max bonus 24 points)
3rd Place
-Lose in semis and win next two matches: 13.5 (10 placement and 3.5 advancement) (max bonus 23.5)
-Lose in quarters and win next four matches: 13.5 (10 placement and 3.5 advancement) (max bonus 25.5)
-Lose second round and win next six matches: 13.5 (10 placement and 3.5 advancement) (max bonus 27.5)
-Lose first round and win next seven matches: 13 (10 placement and 3 advancement) (max bonus 27)
4th Place
-Lose in semis, win in consi semis, lose in placement match: 12.5 (9 placement and 3.5 advancement) (max bonus 20.5)
-Lose in quarters, win next three matches, lose in placement match: 12.5 (9 placement and 3.5 advancement) (max bonus 22.5)
-Lose second round, win next five matches, lose in placement match: 12.5 (9 placement and 3.5 advancement) (max bonus 24.5)
-Lose first round, win next six matches, lose in placement match: 12 (9 placement and 3 advancement (max bonus 24)
5th Place
-Lose in semis, lose in consi semis, win placement match: 10 (7 placement and 3 advancement) (max bonus 18)
--Lose in quarters, win next two matches, lose in consi semis, win placement match: 10 (7 placement and 3 advancement) (max bonus 20)
-Lose second round, win next four matches, lose in consi semis, win placement match: 10 (7 placement and 3 advancement) (max bonus 22)
-Lose first round, win next five matches, lose in consi semis, win placement match: 9.5 (7 placement and 2.5 advancement) (max bonus 21.5)
6th Place
-Lose in semis, lose in consi semis, lose placement match: 9 (6 placement and 3 advancement) (max bonus 15)
-Lose in quarters, win next two matches, lose in consi semis, lose placement match: 9 (6 placement and 3 advancement) (max bonus 17)
-Lose second round, win next four matches, lose in consi semis, lose placement match: 9 (6 placement and 3 advancement) (max bonus 19)
-Lose first found, win next five matches, lose in consi semis, lose placement match: 8.5 (6 placement and 2.5 advancement) (max bonus 18.5)
7th Place
-Lose in quarters, win in blood round, lose in consi quarters, win placement match: 6.5 (4 placement and 2.5 advancement) (max bonus 14.5)
-Lose second round, win next three matches, lose in consi quarters, win placement match: 6.5 (4 placement and 2.5 advancement) (max bonus 16.5)
-Lose first round, win next four matches, lose in consi quarters, win placement match: 6 (4 placement and 2 advancement) (max bonus 16)
8th Place
-Lose in quarters, win in blood round, lose in consi quarters, lose placement match: 5.5 (3 placement and 2.5 advancement) (max bonus 11.5)
-Lose second round, win next three matches, lose in consi quarters, lose placement match: 5.5 (3 placement and 2.5 advancement) (max bonus 13.5)
-Lose first round, win next four matches, lose in consi quarters, lose placement match: 5 (3 placement and 2 advancement (max bonus 13)
My initial thought was that champions/finalists are a bit over-rewarded vs. lower AAs, but after digging through it all I’m not sure what I would change. The most noticeable thing is that champs get three more points above the guy they defeat in the placement match vs. the 3rd-8th matches (i.e., four more points than the runner-up vs. only one more point for 3rd over 4th, etc.). That’s a big reward, especially if you have multiple champs, but I think it is probably deserved given how damn hard it is to win a title.
FWIW, Fellers overstated the extremes with his example. Ten 7th placers would be a minimum of 60 team points (excluding any bonus). To tie that with two guys, you would need two champs pinning their way through.
Anyway, after I crunched all the numbers, I figured I share it here to see what you all though about the way tournaments are scored vs. duals. I’m not sure I would change anything. Maybe dropping the placement points for first down a couple but that level of achievement also deserves something extra. This also makes me wonder the fewest number of qualifiers a team has ever had and won a team title. Can’t be less than eight right? Also, would a dual team championship ever be feasible? I think it would be insanely entertaining.
Long post alert, but I couldn’t figure a way to shorten this up. Here’s what I figured for total points for every possible route to each spot on the podium (errors certainly possible):
Placement Points
1st: 16 points
2nd: 12 points
3rd: 10 points
4th: 9 points
5th: 7 points
6th: 6 points
7th: 4 points
8th: 3 points
Advancement Points
Championship side: 1 point per match won
Wrestlebacks: 0.5 points per match won
(Excluding the final placement matches)
(For byes, points awarded for the bye if wrestler wins next match)
Bonus Points
Fall/default/forfeit/DQ: 2 points
Tech fall: 1.5 points
Major: 1 point
Possible Points by All-Americans
1st Place
-20 advancement and placement points (16 placement and 4 advancement) (max bonus 30 points)
2nd Place
-16 advancement and placement points (12 placement and 4 advancement) (max bonus 24 points)
3rd Place
-Lose in semis and win next two matches: 13.5 (10 placement and 3.5 advancement) (max bonus 23.5)
-Lose in quarters and win next four matches: 13.5 (10 placement and 3.5 advancement) (max bonus 25.5)
-Lose second round and win next six matches: 13.5 (10 placement and 3.5 advancement) (max bonus 27.5)
-Lose first round and win next seven matches: 13 (10 placement and 3 advancement) (max bonus 27)
4th Place
-Lose in semis, win in consi semis, lose in placement match: 12.5 (9 placement and 3.5 advancement) (max bonus 20.5)
-Lose in quarters, win next three matches, lose in placement match: 12.5 (9 placement and 3.5 advancement) (max bonus 22.5)
-Lose second round, win next five matches, lose in placement match: 12.5 (9 placement and 3.5 advancement) (max bonus 24.5)
-Lose first round, win next six matches, lose in placement match: 12 (9 placement and 3 advancement (max bonus 24)
5th Place
-Lose in semis, lose in consi semis, win placement match: 10 (7 placement and 3 advancement) (max bonus 18)
--Lose in quarters, win next two matches, lose in consi semis, win placement match: 10 (7 placement and 3 advancement) (max bonus 20)
-Lose second round, win next four matches, lose in consi semis, win placement match: 10 (7 placement and 3 advancement) (max bonus 22)
-Lose first round, win next five matches, lose in consi semis, win placement match: 9.5 (7 placement and 2.5 advancement) (max bonus 21.5)
6th Place
-Lose in semis, lose in consi semis, lose placement match: 9 (6 placement and 3 advancement) (max bonus 15)
-Lose in quarters, win next two matches, lose in consi semis, lose placement match: 9 (6 placement and 3 advancement) (max bonus 17)
-Lose second round, win next four matches, lose in consi semis, lose placement match: 9 (6 placement and 3 advancement) (max bonus 19)
-Lose first found, win next five matches, lose in consi semis, lose placement match: 8.5 (6 placement and 2.5 advancement) (max bonus 18.5)
7th Place
-Lose in quarters, win in blood round, lose in consi quarters, win placement match: 6.5 (4 placement and 2.5 advancement) (max bonus 14.5)
-Lose second round, win next three matches, lose in consi quarters, win placement match: 6.5 (4 placement and 2.5 advancement) (max bonus 16.5)
-Lose first round, win next four matches, lose in consi quarters, win placement match: 6 (4 placement and 2 advancement) (max bonus 16)
8th Place
-Lose in quarters, win in blood round, lose in consi quarters, lose placement match: 5.5 (3 placement and 2.5 advancement) (max bonus 11.5)
-Lose second round, win next three matches, lose in consi quarters, lose placement match: 5.5 (3 placement and 2.5 advancement) (max bonus 13.5)
-Lose first round, win next four matches, lose in consi quarters, lose placement match: 5 (3 placement and 2 advancement (max bonus 13)
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