Time to rebuild youth sports in America?
- Thread starter THE_DEVIL
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always hated the demise of the kid league ball leagues and the rise of club teams
There is nothing wrong with club teams. Just because club teams exist doesn't mean that rec leagues, programs, and activities can't also exist as a place for kids to participate who don't want to spend a bunch of money. It's the "club team or bust" mentality that is the issue.
The town I live in still has rec league baseball and basketball (amongst other sports) run by the city. In fact, the City Parks & Rec departments sponsors a whole slew of activities from sports to art and music camps for kids for very low fees (and I would bet that if you truly are low-income and can't afford it the City would find some way to get your kid in the program). Thing is that I always see the same kids signing up for and participating in all these activities. There are kids from well to do families and kids from families that live in the trailer park. It's not an issue of income, it's an issue of having crappy parents who don't do anything for their kids.
Activities and programs exist in towns and cities all across the country whether they are run by the City, the Boys & Girls Club, the YMCA/YWCA, even church leagues. It's up to the parents to take the initiative, support heir kids, and sign them up.
ETA: The focus of the article is on funding for these Parks & Rec departments so these programs like I described above can continue and grow (also on opening these activities back up after being shut down last year due to Covid). I agree and fully support tax dollars going to these programs. It's an investment in our kids' futures.
Dad's Club will not create better players than Travel Ball will. Like so many things in this country, families with money will have easier access to the good travel ball programs. So because of no fault of their own, kids in poverty will have less access to the better coaching, better competition, and recruiting tools that travel ball provides.
Thoughts: Many of those living in "poverty" are doing so because they come from broken homes, have parent(s) that didn't care enough about their own future, and aren't invested in their kids future/well-being.
Many of those living outside of "poverty" and are in the >$100K income have education, have drive, are dual income, were raised in non-broken homes so they extend that onto their kids and are invested in their kids future/well-being.
It's no surprise that low income schools/school districts perform worse than those of high income schools. It has nothing to do with money/pupil, teachers, or infrastructure and has everything to do with their upbringing at home.
Many of those living outside of "poverty" and are in the >$100K income have education, have drive, are dual income, were raised in non-broken homes so they extend that onto their kids and are invested in their kids future/well-being.
It's no surprise that low income schools/school districts perform worse than those of high income schools. It has nothing to do with money/pupil, teachers, or infrastructure and has everything to do with their upbringing at home.
I played "organized" sports since I was 6/7 y/o. Never paid a dime. My 4 sons have all played since about that age and we have paid 1000's. This includes rec leagues and countless seasons of high school sports. Interestingly they played 2 seasons of travel soccer and 1 year of club football for free (scholarships). Lawyers/insurance companies have contributed to the decline of youth sports as that is where most of the fees go.
Actually it costs a lot of rent the practice space and pay actual coaches.
You can still have the dads coach and set up cones in the public park for next to nothing.
But, it costs money if families want more than that.
You can still have the dads coach and set up cones in the public park for next to nothing.
But, it costs money if families want more than that.
Those aren't thoughts. You're regurgitating decades of dumbass useless conservative hindsight. Maybe orphans shouldn't have been born to parents who were enemies of the mob.
Never said that. Just saying that I think that is a big contributor to the 23% vs 44% figure. I don't think it's strictly comes down to only 23% of those in "poverty" play because they can't afford it vs 44% because they can.
That's not "dumbass useless conservative hindsight" it's factual data. It's science. Keep denying science though.
Useless is precisely what your "thoughts" amount to.
Travel ball also limits the pool of athletes you can draw from.
The entire premise of this thread/article is "only 23 percent of kids growing up in poverty played sports versus 44 percent from homes of $100,000 or more" but is eschewing other variables outside of income such as those I mentioned above. There are reasons outside of income that drive the variance. I have not taken a stance on right or wrong, just bringing to light that there are more variables at play than money. I am sorry if you can't understand that.
Lot's going on here. Had 3 boys play multiple sports on different club teams. None were good enough to ever make the "elite" teams in any or the sports. Always wanted my kids to play (or try to play) multiple sports. My oldest son was on 2 pretty good soccer and basketball teams in 8th grade and I remember both club teams telling us we needed to start making a choice. It was also getting harder on my son trying to balance both sports. He ended up eventually just not being good enough in basketball in high school and starting 2 years of soccer. Also played tennis but you also faced the dilemma of kids spending thousands a month on tennis as well. Of course those were the kids trying to play in college and literally spending 1500-2000K a month at the racquet club. We were not going there either. Soccer actually is the worst in my opinion. Club season is basically 8-9 months of the year even in high school. The minute the season is over it's a few weeks and they club season starts. It's fu$$ing ridiculous.
Boys sports in America have become a pay as you go
arrangement in our grade schools. In some communities
the non- school programs for basketball, soccer, and
baseball have fees in order to play. They are not connected
to the school and are independent programs which cost
money for participants. Obviously, you need parents who
are willing to pay the fees. This limits those who can play.
arrangement in our grade schools. In some communities
the non- school programs for basketball, soccer, and
baseball have fees in order to play. They are not connected
to the school and are independent programs which cost
money for participants. Obviously, you need parents who
are willing to pay the fees. This limits those who can play.
Agreed, soccer is the worst. Sorry you had to sit through those. I get having to show support for your kid, but that must have been awful.
The issue, as I have seen it, is the never ending pursuit of the college scholarship. At the first sign of success in a sport parents jump to the club program because they want/need that college scholarship. The clubs feed this beast and never reset these expectations with the truth that very few kids end up with any form of athletic scholarship and for those that do receive athletic money the "full ride" is almost non-existent in most sports.
Speaking about men's programs, outside of football and basketball, there is actually very little money available and even a "half ride" is a unicorn. I have found that soccer clubs are the worst in promoting you have to play club in order to play in college and you have to start young. These same clubs then tout all of the club players that advanced to play college, for the most part these are all division 3 players where there is no athletic money, but they don't put that on their websites and press releases.
It is not all on the clubs though, parents realize paying for college is tough and are looking for anything that will give them a leg up. Every year I have the parents of a freshman, that is new to the sport, come and ask me about college scholarships and for help in the recruiting process. Every year I have to explain how limited athletic scholarship money is and readjust their perspective to "let's first work to make the varsity team, then qualify for state, then talk recruiting". This leaves the door open for that exceptional talent to blossom but also takes some of the pressure off the poor kid that has been told they have to get a scholarship in order to go to college. 9 times out of 10 these kids quit after their freshman year because the parents realize the scholarship isn't going to happen and force the kid to find something else that will provide a better opportunity at college money.
This isn't limited to sports though. I have a friend who read that there is tons of scholarship money available in music. Reading deeper she "heard" that there is always a demand for stand up bass musicians so at age 12 her son was given a stand up bass, private lessons, full summer orchestra camps, etc. as that was how they would pay for college. The kid is a gifted athlete (not division 1 gifted but probable multiple year varsity starter in multiple sports) but he never competed in high school because it interferred with music. As a junior in high school he finally revolted and will not be playing bass in college. They wasted all the time and money and pissed their kid off chasing that college scholarship.
Speaking about men's programs, outside of football and basketball, there is actually very little money available and even a "half ride" is a unicorn. I have found that soccer clubs are the worst in promoting you have to play club in order to play in college and you have to start young. These same clubs then tout all of the club players that advanced to play college, for the most part these are all division 3 players where there is no athletic money, but they don't put that on their websites and press releases.
It is not all on the clubs though, parents realize paying for college is tough and are looking for anything that will give them a leg up. Every year I have the parents of a freshman, that is new to the sport, come and ask me about college scholarships and for help in the recruiting process. Every year I have to explain how limited athletic scholarship money is and readjust their perspective to "let's first work to make the varsity team, then qualify for state, then talk recruiting". This leaves the door open for that exceptional talent to blossom but also takes some of the pressure off the poor kid that has been told they have to get a scholarship in order to go to college. 9 times out of 10 these kids quit after their freshman year because the parents realize the scholarship isn't going to happen and force the kid to find something else that will provide a better opportunity at college money.
This isn't limited to sports though. I have a friend who read that there is tons of scholarship money available in music. Reading deeper she "heard" that there is always a demand for stand up bass musicians so at age 12 her son was given a stand up bass, private lessons, full summer orchestra camps, etc. as that was how they would pay for college. The kid is a gifted athlete (not division 1 gifted but probable multiple year varsity starter in multiple sports) but he never competed in high school because it interferred with music. As a junior in high school he finally revolted and will not be playing bass in college. They wasted all the time and money and pissed their kid off chasing that college scholarship.
Again agree about the never ending pursuit of college scholarships, which a lot of that falls on the parents as well as the club teams. As you said most of the kids that do get scholarships in any sports, besides the most truly gifted, are D2 at best and most are D3 or NAIA. As you stated, besides basketball and FB, the other sports divide their scholarships. If you get good grades along w/being good in that sport you can probably go to a school like Simpson or Central for half the amount and continue to play a sport you like. We made a visit to one of those schools and it was just to small for my son. He hated the visit and I think he realized he wanted to go to a big state school and join a fraternity and have fun. Which totally turned out to be the right choice. When you figure the 125-150 dollars a month I paid out for 3 kids I realize what a sucker I was. I didn't really do it for a scholarship but once you are in the cult around 13-14 years old you feel the need to do it just to keep them competitive enough to be on the high school team.
Everyone acting like kids being on travel teams is terrible.
But, we had a great time with it. Didn't really have any expectations other than giving my kid the opportunity to be the best he could be at the sport he loved.
Met a bunch of great kids and families across a bunch of different schools. Had a lot of fun trips to tournaments that would have otherwise been just another weekend I'd have forgotten about.
If you have the money, the right attitude, and it makes sense for your family, it can be great.
But, we had a great time with it. Didn't really have any expectations other than giving my kid the opportunity to be the best he could be at the sport he loved.
Met a bunch of great kids and families across a bunch of different schools. Had a lot of fun trips to tournaments that would have otherwise been just another weekend I'd have forgotten about.
If you have the money, the right attitude, and it makes sense for your family, it can be great.
As a member of the board for a Soccer Club, we have expenses and there is only one paid position. A lot of our fees go to Iowa Soccer and US Soccer. The rest go to paying for refs, field officials, equipment(jerseys, balls, bags, first aid equipment, field paint, etc.) We are not an elite club that has paid trainers/coaches. Travel costs $100 per season, spring and fall($200/yr). Youth(PreK-2nd Grade) is $40. Everything run by volunteers. I put in between 15-20 hours a week. We offer scholarships for kids if parents want to volunteer and help. We also have a cap for what 1 family would pay for multiple kids.
I really think people underrate the logistical aspects of this. For those of us with kids in sports, you are CONSTANTLY driving them around. They practice in early evenings. It requires:
a. Transportation, frequently two cars/drivers if you have more than one kid
b. A job you can get out of at 5 or maybe 6pm
c. A job you don't work on Saturdays when the games are
When I was a kid we practiced and played at the neighborhood park. We practiced after school and walked to and from. The fields were incredibly shitty, but we managed. In high school there was a "late bus" that took everyone home about 5pm that stayed after for practices of various sports. Now you have to fight rush hour traffic to pick your kids up from practice.
There is NO WAY that a single mother who is a nurse, or a couple parents balancing retail jobs, could participate in any of leagues that my kids did...and these were strictly town and church leagues, nothing elite.
Remember the old cliche that you'd hear "my parents never came to any of my games?" That's virtually impossible today, because a kid can't participate at all any more if their parents can't/won't commit several hours a week just shuffling them around everywhere.
If they want poor kids back in sports, you have to get them back in neighborhood parks they can walk or ride their bikes to, even if they're not pristine manicured landscape masterpieces. Have practices at 3 or 4 o'clock. Have an 8 game season instead of 20 games.
Stop having a barrier to entry of two parents with cars and nice white collar jobs they can dip out of at 4:30 twice a week or a full time homemaker at the beck and call of driving.
Everything in youth activities is just too...much. A lot of parents, especially working class parents, just can't, or aren't up to it.
a. Transportation, frequently two cars/drivers if you have more than one kid
b. A job you can get out of at 5 or maybe 6pm
c. A job you don't work on Saturdays when the games are
When I was a kid we practiced and played at the neighborhood park. We practiced after school and walked to and from. The fields were incredibly shitty, but we managed. In high school there was a "late bus" that took everyone home about 5pm that stayed after for practices of various sports. Now you have to fight rush hour traffic to pick your kids up from practice.
There is NO WAY that a single mother who is a nurse, or a couple parents balancing retail jobs, could participate in any of leagues that my kids did...and these were strictly town and church leagues, nothing elite.
Remember the old cliche that you'd hear "my parents never came to any of my games?" That's virtually impossible today, because a kid can't participate at all any more if their parents can't/won't commit several hours a week just shuffling them around everywhere.
If they want poor kids back in sports, you have to get them back in neighborhood parks they can walk or ride their bikes to, even if they're not pristine manicured landscape masterpieces. Have practices at 3 or 4 o'clock. Have an 8 game season instead of 20 games.
Stop having a barrier to entry of two parents with cars and nice white collar jobs they can dip out of at 4:30 twice a week or a full time homemaker at the beck and call of driving.
Everything in youth activities is just too...much. A lot of parents, especially working class parents, just can't, or aren't up to it.
I’m sure it’s a little different depending on what part of the country you’re from but in North Dakota nothing can top hockey. Fall 5 on 5 starts early September and rolls into regular club play. There’s no in-house competition so even the worst kids are traveling from mid -November thru the end of March. And then spring 5 on 5 begins immediately and goes until the end of May. And then of course there’s skill sessions all summer.
This usually starts by age 9. Friends with kids in hockey budget about $10000-$15000 every year.
I was relieved when my son said he didn’t want to play anymore. Wrestling is nothing compared to that.
There is a lot to this. I was talking with a guy last week that lives in Morningside (Sioux City) and he commented how great it will be when his kids get older because he lives over by Pulaski Park and his kids can just ride their bikes a couple of blocks. I grew up in another area of Morningside over by Washington school and at 10-11-12 would ride my bike to Pulaski Park during the day for practice. I grew up in the era of latch key kids. Our rules growing up were to STAY IN MORNINGSIDE and be home by the time the streetlights come on. Do you understand how insane that sounds now? If you did that today somebody would call child services.
My 14 year old is in competitive soccer. We absolutely love it. Kind of hoping my younger 2 pick soccer as well.
This is pretty spot on. Only thing I would disagree with is sometimes I have to cut out of work by 3:30, not 5 or 6, to get my kids where they need to be. I will say, fortunately, my oldest has been on the same team for a while now so we have a pretty sweet carpool set up, which saves quite a bit of time.
Exactly. We saw this was coming and as a result my wife walked away from a wonderful 6 figure position to get into teaching. Granted she wanted to "give back" and teaching was always her first love but the bigger draw was the ability to be available to "drive the bus" to give our kids the opportunities we wanted them to have.
Even this didn't always work as practice could start as early as 4:00 and the soccer complex was a 20 minute plus drive. My son got off the bus at 3:30 so someone had to meet him at the bus, with all practice gear, and he would change in the car in order to get there on time. If the bus was late, if my wife had a staff meeting or student stay after school for help and he would not make it.
We had the luxury of being able to have my wife take a 50% pay cut to try and make club sports work, most don't have that luxury and it creates a very high entry bar for most families.
Maybe they enjoy it?
My son plays on one of the top teams here (not MLS Next or whatever replaced DA, but just under) and has been on multiple trips all around the West. San Diego, Phoenix, Las Vegas, New Mexico... He has zero desire to play in college but enjoys the game and competition.
As far as HS, in our local schools if you don’t play from a very early age probably aren’t going to make the varsity team. Except football if you’re big enough. That makes me sad that kids get pigeonholed.
I think you are missing the point here. As a family we have had almost all great memories. Over the years you maybe had an a-hole coach or 2 but met a ton of great people and my kids met so many other great kids. Growing up in Suburbia, my kids were not exposed to a lot. Both kids that played basketball got some diversity in the kids they met and I think that was a great learning experience for them. But back to the point, as you said it's great if you have the money. Well sure, everything is great if you have the money, which is kind of where the OP was going. If you are from a single family home or don't have a lot of money to pay the monthly fees you're probably not playing. Go to a baseball tournament or a soccer tournament. 98% of the kids are rich, white suburban kids. They have the money to travel and pay for 2-3 tournaments a month that these teams are doing.
Well, yes. It costs money. It isn't free. There are lower cost options (rec leagues) for those without the ability to pay for field access, coaches and travel.
Unless there is a proposal to make it free for everyone (there isn't, but I'd support), then complaining about the fact that not everyone has equal access to superior services doesn't mean much to me.
Unless there is a proposal to make it free for everyone (there isn't, but I'd support), then complaining about the fact that not everyone has equal access to superior services doesn't mean much to me.
My kids Club offered scholarships to those who were unable to pay. I saw it go both ways.
Some of those kids were among the best on the team, took that opportunity and may even turn it into an opportunity in college, that they may have never otherwise had.
Others, who received a scholarship, didn't show up to practice, missed games, and eventually dropped out, because in part they and their parents didn't have any personal investment.
Some of those kids were among the best on the team, took that opportunity and may even turn it into an opportunity in college, that they may have never otherwise had.
Others, who received a scholarship, didn't show up to practice, missed games, and eventually dropped out, because in part they and their parents didn't have any personal investment.
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