To show just how important the 2023 recruiting class is and producing similarly at least every other year:

MSU158

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Iowa's current p4p ranking for their starters was listed on the "Mid Level recruits..." thread. It made me look up PSU's to compare. After posting the response their, I think this is a VERY important topic that speaks volumes and really needed its own thread

Here is the Iowa rankings as posted by @24timenattychamps :

Spencer #2 p4p
Teske 34 P4P
Woods 21 P4p
Murin 44 p4p
Rathjen 49 p4p (Cobe NR)
Kennedy 3 P4p
Brands 93 p4p
Assad 29 p4p
Warner 7 p4p
Cass 14 p4p

Very solid, but also VERY telling as to why they are still considerable underdogs to PSU. Here is their roster's p4p rankings:

125: Howard #7 P4P (Steen #29)
133: RBY #12 P4P
141: Bartlett #4 P4P
149: Van Ness #4 P4P
157: Haines #9 P4P
165: Facundo #2 P4P
174: Starocci #9 P4P
184: Brooks #2 P4P
197: Dean (The ONLY guy not recruited originally by PSU.) #74 P4P
285: Kerkvliet #1 P4P

That is an average P4P ranking, for those directly recruited, of (50/9)=5.56

Meanwhile, Iowa's average for just those directly recruited is (241/8)=30.02 So, Teske and Woods(55/2)=27.5, would actually bring that average down, ever so slightly, below 30 to 29.6...

Next season, Iowa loses their highest recruit(#2 overall) in Spencer Lee as well as their 3rd highes(#7 overall) in Jacob Warner. They will also lose #44 Murin. PSU only loses, #12 RBY and #74 Dean. Granted, both are NCAA Champs, but they are the "worst" ranked recruits of their starters. With Barr(current #5 P4P in 2023) coming in, they could easily move their lineup around from 157-197 to fill Dean's spot. As of now, 133 looks to be their one and only question mark for 2023-24.

With the above said, PSU wil AGAIN have 9 top 10 P4P, directly recruited guys, almost certainly starting next season. This is a trend that has lasted too long to think anything changes. To have any chance to stay competitive, on the years you don't recruit a Chittum(was #1 P4P before reclassifying), Keuter(#2P4P), Jesuroga(#6P4P), Arnold(#10P4P) along with an "insurance" guy like Block(#24P4P), you STILL need to land 1 guy in that top 10 on the off years, for a NEED weight.

Finally, the formula is actually quite simple to list, but ridiculously difficult to achieve. One big class every 3 years or so where you basically match 2023. In between those 3 years you consistently at least land 1 top 10 at a crucial need weight. Once you get to the 2nd cycle, you should have 7 to even 10 starters in that coveted Top 10P4P range.

tOSU has come pretty close to doing this and they were the only team truly challenging PSU before Spencer arrived at Iowa. For Iowa to truly challenge for the foreseeable futher, they can't let off the recruiting pedal 1 bit. Even with the transfer portal becoming a bigger factor, you have no clue who will be out there to fill a need. Recruiting is the only true way to be as sure as you can be!
 

bluroptimo

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Feb 23, 2007
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Good review, MSU. If you do this again for the PSU Championship teams over the years you’ll see a repetitive trend of them having an abundance of top 10 p4p wrestlers relative to every other D1 program. The good news is this is out in the open, we know what we have to beat. Like I said, good review.
 

Grip220

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Good stuff MSU, our new recruiting class is looking very good and should continue to have the Hawks right at the top of the heap.

These new recruits along with the new facility and the continuing growth of the HWC will keep us on track, but more is needed or else we will continue to be on the chase. Spencer’s success this season and into the senior level is a very large part of the picture, but yet again more is needed.

The HWC team needs to rival their bought RTC team. I believe in keeping the best homegrown competitors is the best way to represent our teams, but just like the HS recruits we will need to bring in some outside talent on the HWC as well. Our fans need to continue to support as best as we can and donate if possible.

The funding of the Hawkeye wrestling team as well as the HWC may never catch up with their slush fund, so we will need to continue to build and seek the best possible options while keeping our top notch integrity intact. They continue to buy their way to the top, we will continue to build our way to the top, I like our way better.
 
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el dub

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Iowa's current p4p ranking for their starters was listed on the "Mid Level recruits..." thread. It made me look up PSU's to compare. After posting the response their, I think this is a VERY important topic that speaks volumes and really needed its own thread

Here is the Iowa rankings as posted by @24timenattychamps :

Spencer #2 p4p
Teske 34 P4P
Woods 21 P4p
Murin 44 p4p
Rathjen 49 p4p (Cobe NR)
Kennedy 3 P4p
Brands 93 p4p
Assad 29 p4p
Warner 7 p4p
Cass 14 p4p

Very solid, but also VERY telling as to why they are still considerable underdogs to PSU. Here is their roster's p4p rankings:

125: Howard #7 P4P (Steen #29)
133: RBY #12 P4P
141: Bartlett #4 P4P
149: Van Ness #4 P4P
157: Haines #9 P4P
165: Facundo #2 P4P
174: Starocci #9 P4P
184: Brooks #2 P4P
197: Dean (The ONLY guy not recruited originally by PSU.) #74 P4P
285: Kerkvliet #1 P4P

That is an average P4P ranking, for those directly recruited, of (50/9)=5.56

Meanwhile, Iowa's average for just those directly recruited is (241/8)=30.02 So, Teske and Woods(55/2)=27.5, would actually bring that average down, ever so slightly, below 30 to 29.6...

Next season, Iowa loses their highest recruit(#2 overall) in Spencer Lee as well as their 3rd highes(#7 overall) in Jacob Warner. They will also lose #44 Murin. PSU only loses, #12 RBY and #74 Dean. Granted, both are NCAA Champs, but they are the "worst" ranked recruits of their starters. With Barr(current #5 P4P in 2023) coming in, they could easily move their lineup around from 157-197 to fill Dean's spot. As of now, 133 looks to be their one and only question mark for 2023-24.

With the above said, PSU wil AGAIN have 9 top 10 P4P, directly recruited guys, almost certainly starting next season. This is a trend that has lasted too long to think anything changes. To have any chance to stay competitive, on the years you don't recruit a Chittum(was #1 P4P before reclassifying), Keuter(#2P4P), Jesuroga(#6P4P), Arnold(#10P4P) along with an "insurance" guy like Block(#24P4P), you STILL need to land 1 guy in that top 10 on the off years, for a NEED weight.

Finally, the formula is actually quite simple to list, but ridiculously difficult to achieve. One big class every 3 years or so where you basically match 2023. In between those 3 years you consistently at least land 1 top 10 at a crucial need weight. Once you get to the 2nd cycle, you should have 7 to even 10 starters in that coveted Top 10P4P range.

tOSU has come pretty close to doing this and they were the only team truly challenging PSU before Spencer arrived at Iowa. For Iowa to truly challenge for the foreseeable futher, they can't let off the recruiting pedal 1 bit. Even with the transfer portal becoming a bigger factor, you have no clue who will be out there to fill a need. Recruiting is the only true way to be as sure as you can be!
Cbc Tv Reaction GIF by CBC
 

rossel 33

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Great review MSU! With a number of schools having excellent coaches and facilities, recruiting has become paramount in importance.

PSU, for over a decade has brought in blue chip recruits like no one else. Some of the goofy team rankings for recruiting have for years overweighted # of top 100 guys, and overlooked getting a few top 10 guys every year.

Last, the "lowest" ranked PSU wrestler (Dean at 197#) was a proven talent when PSU got him to transfer - he was already an ncaa runnerup. Cael didn't need too much "development" there.

The guy Dean replaced (Michael Beard) was ranked #11 p4p in 2018 class, which would've made PSU's numbers even better. Also, PSU has so many elite recruits, some elite recruits ride the bench (J Lee #20 and S Nevills #22).
 
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el dub

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Great review MSU! With a number of schools having excellent coaches and facilities, recruiting has become paramount in importance.

PSU, for over a decade has brought in blue chip recruits like no one else. Some of the goofy team rankings for recruiting have for years overweighted # of top 100 guys, and overlooked getting a few top 10 guys every year.

Last, the "lowest" ranked PSU wrestler (Dean at 197#) was a proven talent when PSU got him to transfer - he was already an ncaa runnerup. Cael didn't need too much "development" there.

The guy Dean replaced (Michael Beard) was ranked #11 p4p in 2018 class, which would've made PSU's numbers even better. Also, PSU has so many elite recruits, some elite recruits ride the bench (J Lee #20 and S Nevills #22).
Theoretically, two top ten recruits per year could be brought in with full rides and “room guys,” filling holes as needed.

For Iowa, that would entail top ten recruits at every weight but one.
 
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TarpHawk

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I've been banging this drum for 10 years, and it took almost that long to shift from denial ("High school rankings are meaningless and you're a hater") to reluctance ("Yeah, Nickal is great, but Alex Meyer is going to surprise some people") to common-sense agreement ("Woo-hoo, we got Spencer Lee!").

We're in a better place than we were in, say, 2014, but it's true, we still seem to have a fetish for mid-tier guys that we think are gonna buck the odds. Raise your hand if you ever thought Reyna and Glazier were gonna be NCAA finalists. Ayala, Jesuroga, and Chittum? Yes.

P.S. Yes, I know Alex Meyer beat what's-his-face.
 

el dub

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Nov 2, 2005
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I've been banging this drum for 10 years, and it took almost that long to shift from denial ("High school rankings are meaningless and you're a hater") to reluctance ("Yeah, Nickal is great, but Alex Meyer is going to surprise some people") to common-sense agreement ("Woo-hoo, we got Spencer Lee!").

We're in a better place than we were in, say, 2014, but it's true, we still seem to have a fetish for mid-tier guys that we think are gonna buck the odds. Raise your hand if you ever thought Reyna and Glazier were gonna be NCAA finalists. Ayala, Jesuroga, and Chittum? Yes.

P.S. Yes, I know Alex Meyer beat what's-his-face.
But…. we like our guys.
 

MVPFAN

HR Heisman
Mar 10, 2003
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100%. Keep in mind the portal is never a guarantee. You'll never know who will be in it and who will be out of it. Recruiting will still be the key.
Agree, transfers should be a nice to do or backup plan when plan A doesn't work out as it's too unpredictable to counted on for main strategy.
 
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MVPFAN

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Iowa's current p4p ranking for their starters was listed on the "Mid Level recruits..." thread. It made me look up PSU's to compare. After posting the response their, I think this is a VERY important topic that speaks volumes and really needed its own thread

Here is the Iowa rankings as posted by @24timenattychamps :

Spencer #2 p4p
Teske 34 P4P
Woods 21 P4p
Murin 44 p4p
Rathjen 49 p4p (Cobe NR)
Kennedy 3 P4p
Brands 93 p4p
Assad 29 p4p
Warner 7 p4p
Cass 14 p4p

Very solid, but also VERY telling as to why they are still considerable underdogs to PSU. Here is their roster's p4p rankings:

125: Howard #7 P4P (Steen #29)
133: RBY #12 P4P
141: Bartlett #4 P4P
149: Van Ness #4 P4P
157: Haines #9 P4P
165: Facundo #2 P4P
174: Starocci #9 P4P
184: Brooks #2 P4P
197: Dean (The ONLY guy not recruited originally by PSU.) #74 P4P
285: Kerkvliet #1 P4P

That is an average P4P ranking, for those directly recruited, of (50/9)=5.56

Meanwhile, Iowa's average for just those directly recruited is (241/8)=30.02 So, Teske and Woods(55/2)=27.5, would actually bring that average down, ever so slightly, below 30 to 29.6...

Next season, Iowa loses their highest recruit(#2 overall) in Spencer Lee as well as their 3rd highes(#7 overall) in Jacob Warner. They will also lose #44 Murin. PSU only loses, #12 RBY and #74 Dean. Granted, both are NCAA Champs, but they are the "worst" ranked recruits of their starters. With Barr(current #5 P4P in 2023) coming in, they could easily move their lineup around from 157-197 to fill Dean's spot. As of now, 133 looks to be their one and only question mark for 2023-24.

With the above said, PSU wil AGAIN have 9 top 10 P4P, directly recruited guys, almost certainly starting next season. This is a trend that has lasted too long to think anything changes. To have any chance to stay competitive, on the years you don't recruit a Chittum(was #1 P4P before reclassifying), Keuter(#2P4P), Jesuroga(#6P4P), Arnold(#10P4P) along with an "insurance" guy like Block(#24P4P), you STILL need to land 1 guy in that top 10 on the off years, for a NEED weight.

Finally, the formula is actually quite simple to list, but ridiculously difficult to achieve. One big class every 3 years or so where you basically match 2023. In between those 3 years you consistently at least land 1 top 10 at a crucial need weight. Once you get to the 2nd cycle, you should have 7 to even 10 starters in that coveted Top 10P4P range.

tOSU has come pretty close to doing this and they were the only team truly challenging PSU before Spencer arrived at Iowa. For Iowa to truly challenge for the foreseeable futher, they can't let off the recruiting pedal 1 bit. Even with the transfer portal becoming a bigger factor, you have no clue who will be out there to fill a need. Recruiting is the only true way to be as sure as you can be!

Having 4 additional top 10 pound for pound wrestlers available for our lineup this year probably makes things a lot more interesting.
 
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MSU158

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Getting blue chips is just the beginning. Like a good knife the steel must be tempered correctly or it will become brittle and break. The knife maker must know when to quench and which oil to use.
Although this is true to an extent, when forging a sword, would you rather be using aluminum, bronze, iron, steel or tungsten? The greatest forger in the world isn't going to make an aluminum sword that is going to hold up against iron or steel, let alone tungsten.

Hell, if I had my way, I wouldn't even have a forger EVER messing with aluminum, bronze or even iron. It may be more expensive if he makes mistakes with those much more expensive raw materials(steel and tungsten), but once he gets the hang of it, those swords MASSACRE the others.

I know it was a rather lengthy analogy, but I think it is one of the best fitting analogies I have ever used. In many cases, a less than perfectly forged steel or tungsten sword breaks an aluminum, bronze or even iron sword. Now, that isn't to say a poorly forged steel or tungesten sword can't be broken by the others, but the materials are SO much stronger that they can get by with flaws the others simply can't...
 

IRONBIRD

HR MVP
Dec 2, 2010
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OK great, this has been discussed before. The much bigger picture, if the OP wants to do some more work? Is looking back at the last 10 years or so. F*** st I will bet has out recruited the next 3-4 teams combined when it comes to top 10 talent!!!

It was/is all about the $$$$ and an un-level playing field. Everyone seems to think that The Brands, Smiths, Ryans of the world are stupid or something. "GEE guys, do you think it would be smart for us too to bring in top tier guys by the truck load???"

It was the ability to do it without any rules that gave the F*** st great Kale a ridiculous advantage. No other way to look at it!!! Now with NIL $$$, the field is starting to level off some, but, kael did a smart thing and started buying club members. Dake, Snyder, and lil whats his face soon to be smashed by LEE!

So YES, what the OP said makes great sense, getting it done is the hard part.
 

el dub

HR Legend
Nov 2, 2005
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OK great, this has been discussed before. The much bigger picture, if the OP wants to do some more work? Is looking back at the last 10 years or so. F*** st I will bet has out recruited the next 3-4 teams combined when it comes to top 10 talent!!!

It was/is all about the $$$$ and an un-level playing field. Everyone seems to think that The Brands, Smiths, Ryans of the world are stupid or something. "GEE guys, do you think it would be smart for us too to bring in top tier guys by the truck load???"

It was the ability to do it without any rules that gave the F*** st great Kale a ridiculous advantage. No other way to look at it!!! Now with NIL $$$, the field is starting to level off some, but, kael did a smart thing and started buying club members. Dake, Snyder, and lil whats his face soon to be smashed by LEE!

So YES, what the OP said makes great sense, getting it done is the hard part.
Full or near full rides to two top wrestlers per season buys that team.

But what about the room guys?
 
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redghost1974

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Full or near full rides to two top wrestlers per season buys that team.

But what about the room guys?
I don't think scholly money is a big factor for PSU targeted recruits. If you are in the top 10 P4P, you have been on the national circuit, so the parents are already have financial means. So kids may need more $, but other kids are willing to give up money because the NLWC is guaranteeing funding on the back end. 9.9 limit isn't a factor for PSU at this point.
 

98lberEating2Lunches

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(Dean at 197#) was a proven talent when PSU got him to transfer
Fallacy #1 - PSU did not get him. Dean sought out PSU.
NLWC is guaranteeing funding on the back end
Fallacy #2 - see Mark Hall and Vincenzo Joseph.

That said, I'm all for the Iowa Hawkeyes and the HWC doing all they can to be the best program. It's always best to control that within one's ability to control.
a less than perfectly forged steel or tungsten sword breaks an aluminum, bronze or even iron
Sounds too much like a hedge against having the best blacksmith.
 
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LutherAce

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Full or near full rides to two top wrestlers per season buys that team.

But what about the room guys?
there are some new scholarship rules kicking off this year for wrestling.

Scholarship regulations

Rules around athletic and academic competition follow precedent, but the new financial and monetary rules around scholarships are a little more complicated. Starting in the 2022-23 season, any member of a men’s wrestling team on an athletic scholarship must receive at least 20% of a full scholarship.

Athletes receiving athletically-related need-based aid at an institution that offers such funding do not need to receive at least 20% of their costs, but they still must demonstrate financial aid as any non-athlete would be required to do. Wrestlers in their final two years of eligibility who have not previously received aid at any institution may also receive less than 20% of athletically-related financial aid.
 
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98lberEating2Lunches

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any member of a men’s wrestling team on an athletic scholarship must receive at least 20% of a full scholarship.

Wrestlers in their final two years of eligibility who have not previously receied aid at any may also receive less than 20% of athletically-related financial aid.

But what about the room guys?

Plenty of room for no athletic scholarship room guys, even with the new "at least 20% of a full" (when on scholarship).
 

MSU158

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Fallacy #1 - PSU did not get him. Dean sought out PSU.

Fallacy #2 - see Mark Hall and Vincenzo Joeseph.

That said, I'm all for the Iowa Hawkeyes and the HWC doing all they can to be the best program. It's always best to control that within one's ability to control.

Sounds too much like a hedge against having the best blacksmith.
Sounds like you are looking for something that isn't there. I personally want the best blacksmith possible. But, that wasn't the point of the post. The point was how much difference the raw materials make. A TERRIBLE blacksmith is still most likely going to provide considerably more effective swords with steel and tungsten than the best forger in the world stuck with aluminum or bronze...
 
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98lberEating2Lunches

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Sounds like you are looking for something that isn't there. ... The point was how much difference the raw materials make.
I said "Sounds," as in sounds to me, "too much like a hedge." I got your analogy the first time. Still sounds like a hedge to me.

I am probably not a fan of analogies that might compare a young person and uncertainties associated with their potential to material used in metallurgy with known characteristics. Also not a big fan of the term, "human capital," but that's just me.
 

el dub

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I said "Sounds," as in sounds to me, "too much like a hedge." I got your analogy the first time. Still sounds like a hedge to me.

I am probably not a fan of analogies that might compare a young person and uncertainties associated with their potential to material used in metallurgy with known characteristics. Also not a big fan of the term, "human capital," but that's just me.
But iron has always sharpened iron at Iowa.
 
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MSU158

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I said "Sounds," as in sounds to me, "too much like a hedge." I got your analogy the first time. Still sounds like a hedge to me.

I am probably not a fan of analogies that might compare a young person and uncertainties associated with their potential to material used in metallurgy with known characteristics. Also not a big fan of the term, "human capital," but that's just me.
Then you need to get your ears checked. You can dislike the analogy all you want. But, the point is CRYSTAL CLEAR. Hedging implies there is a covered up weakness. In the case of Iowa, the coaching staff is INARGUABLY top 5. Since the entire topic has been about Iowa relative to PSU, the "hedging" comment holds ZERO water.

You give Iowa the same level of recruits PSU has had over the past decade and they WOULD have more NCAA titles than they do now. Hedge that!
 

HawkeyePA

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I don't think scholly money is a big factor for PSU targeted recruits. If you are in the top 10 P4P, you have been on the national circuit, so the parents are already have financial means. So kids may need more $, but other kids are willing to give up money because the NLWC is guaranteeing funding on the back end. 9.9 limit isn't a factor for PSU at this point.
EXACTLY RIGHT.... Money has NEVER been a problem for that program recruits... maybe NIL will eventually even out the bidding war for the big programs but even more smaller programs will suffer in the long run.
 

lookleft goright

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I've been banging this drum for 10 years, and it took almost that long to shift from denial ("High school rankings are meaningless and you're a hater") to reluctance ("Yeah, Nickal is great, but Alex Meyer is going to surprise some people") to common-sense agreement ("Woo-hoo, we got Spencer Lee!").

We're in a better place than we were in, say, 2014, but it's true, we still seem to have a fetish for mid-tier guys that we think are gonna buck the odds. Raise your hand if you ever thought Reyna and Glazier were gonna be NCAA finalists. Ayala, Jesuroga, and Chittum? Yes.

P.S. Yes, I know Alex Meyer beat what's-his-face.
You sign the best kid you can. If you lose the guys you want then you offer less money to the next guy in line. You can't afford to have holes in your line up because you did not get the best kid or the best recruit. I think the fans tend to rationalize some of the recruits, but the coaches are smarter than that (I hope).
The thing I would be concerned about is the number of kids who transfer in and do well (ADS, the Riddler, etc). Why isn't Iowa getting them from the get go?
 
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hawkman37

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The Portal has been great to us... How much dues our staff stay on that or recruit it (serious question as I have no idea)? Spit balling, DeSanto came because of spencer... ? Eierman called us...? Tom said in the pressor him and M* got on a plane and went and met with Woods. I'm thinking they are shifting into a over under on portal guys for imediate needs... and I certainly like it.
In "TERRY" - even Gable himself mentioned he had to change his focus to more face to face recruiting when going after TnT as the hawks were in a dry spell of no titles. Nothing is better to cheer for than Iowa Wrestling!!
How cool is it to hear SLee saying the coaches call him the athlete coach and molding him!
 

98lberEating2Lunches

HR All-State
Feb 11, 2018
652
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Hedging implies there is a covered up weakness.
You are the one who originally wrote:
the materials are SO much stronger that they can get by with flaws
In forging, it's the process and the blacksmith that induces a flaw in the end product (not the raw material).

There is a difference between a material's strength and its susceptibility to fracture due to flaw. And there are many types of swords besides the broad sword. The more I think about it, the worse your analogy becomes.
 
Last edited:

98lberEating2Lunches

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You give Iowa the same level of recruits PSU has had over the past decade and they WOULD have more NCAA titles than they do now.
If a toad had wings, he wouldn't bump his ass so much when he hopped.

It's easy to engage in hypotheticals.

Zero is the only number less than one, so you really went out a limb there with your hypothetical, given the last decade.
 

TarpHawk

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You sign the best kid you can. If you lose the guys you want then you offer less money to the next guy in line. You can't afford to have holes in your line up because you did not get the best kid or the best recruit. I think the fans tend to rationalize some of the recruits, but the coaches are smarter than that (I hope).
The thing I would be concerned about is the number of kids who transfer in and do well (ADS, the Riddler, etc). Why isn't Iowa getting them from the get go?
I basically agree with you. And yet, for the sake of argument, if you can't get #3 Diakomihalis (2017 Big Board) and instead settle for #44 Murin, you've only bought yourself a few more NCAA points (2 in '19, 2 in '21, 4 in '22) than a walk-on who scores 0. In which case it may make sense to stockpile your money and wait for next year or a transfer.

No knock on Murin--he's performed at least as well as you'd expect of a #44 recruit.

I think your point is that if it were so easy to recruit only top-10 wrestlers, everyone would do it. I get that :) As long as we're not losing out on top-10 recruits because we can't give them enough money--because we've already spent it elsewhere.
 

el dub

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I basically agree with you. And yet, for the sake of argument, if you can't get #3 Diakomihalis (2017 Big Board) and instead settle for #44 Murin, you've only bought yourself a few more NCAA points (2 in '19, 2 in '21, 4 in '22) than a walk-on who scores 0. In which case it may make sense to stockpile your money and wait for next year or a transfer.

No knock on Murin--he's performed at least as well as you'd expect of a #44 recruit.

I think your point is that if it were so easy to recruit only top-10 wrestlers, everyone would do it. I get that :) As long as we're not losing out on top-10 recruits because we can't give them enough money--because we've already spent it elsewhere.
I’m not sure we lose recruits due to lack of money. Rather, I’m guessing it’s due to lack of allocating and offering what it takes to get them on campus.
 
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MSU158

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You are the one who originally wrote:

In forging, it's the process and the blacksmith that induces a flaw in the end product (not the raw material).

There is a difference between a material's strength and its susceptibility to fracture due to flaw. And there are many types of swords besides the broad sword. The more I think about it, the worse your analogy becomes.
Beyond a twist and stretch response. The POINT of the post was that EVEN with a bad forger steel and tungsten are INARGUABLY better than aluminum or bronze when forging ANY kind of a sword(broad, short, scimitar, fencing, saber, etc, etc,). Even IF the forger(coach) himself created major flaws, a flawless aluminum or bronze sword has VERY LITTLE chance against its steel or tungsten counterpart. Mind you, there are not even coaches at that bad of a level in DI, let alone at Iowa that could mess a recruit up to the level necessary to have the type of flaws necessary for the steel or tungsten sword to not hold up to aluminum or bronze.

Hell, if you REALLY read into my analogy any "hedging" would actually go towards the PSU staff! Can PSU actually produce WITHOUT starting off almost exclusively with high end steel and tungsten? To be clear, I DO NOT mean it EITHER WAY and already said that. The sole point was starting with a better level of recruit(analogized as metals for swords) INARGUABLY increases the likelihood of success..
 
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MSU158

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If a toad had wings, he wouldn't bump his ass so much when he hopped.

It's easy to engage in hypotheticals.

Zero is the only number less than one, so you really went out a limb there with your hypothetical, given the last decade.
Talk about talking out of both sides of your mouth. You call me out for "hedging" and when I CLEARLY state my stance to the contrary, you call that out. Do you not see the hypocrisy? Or, more likely, are you intentionally hypocritical? Not to be mistaken with "hypothetical"...

To, again, be fully transparent, I ABSOLUTELY believe PSU's success has been hugely due to overwhelmingly dominant recruiting. That isn't to say I don't believe they are a great staff at cultivating and developing. However, they aren't that far ahead of Iowa's staff, Koll's staff, Ryan's staff, Smith's staff or even Bormet's staff in that department.

If the 4 I listed above had equal level recruits as PSU, do I think PSU still probably has the most success? Yes. Do I think it would be WAY closer? Without a shadow of a doubt. Anyone arguing otherwise has a homeristic viewpoint...
 

HawkFan1986

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Mar 26, 2019
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Iowa
Talk about talking out of both sides of your mouth. You call me out for "hedging" and when I CLEARLY state my stance to the contrary, you call that out. Do you not see the hypocrisy? Or, more likely, are you intentionally hypocritical? Not to be mistaken with "hypothetical"...

To, again, be fully transparent, I ABSOLUTELY believe PSU's success has been hugely due to overwhelmingly dominant recruiting. That isn't to say I don't believe they are a great staff at cultivating and developing. However, they aren't that far ahead of Iowa's staff, Koll's staff, Ryan's staff, Smith's staff or even Bormet's staff in that department.

If the 4 I listed above had equal level recruits as PSU, do I think PSU still probably has the most success? Yes. Do I think it would be WAY closer? Without a shadow of a doubt. Anyone arguing otherwise has a homeristic viewpoint...
This is a perfect response.

Both teams coaches are great, and both have areas they could improve on. But it’s the Spencer’s, Nolf’s, and Nikals that make the cores of championship teams.

Recruiting means a great deal. It’s a coaches job to find, develop, and maintain that talent, both mentally and physically. Iowa has picked up their recruiting of late and it resulted in an NCAA title, and they have an amazing class coming in. But as your original post makes abundantly clear PSU isn’t slowing down anytime soon. It’s Iowas job to catch up, keep up, and then surpass. Their on the right track.
 

98lberEating2Lunches

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EVEN with a bad forger steel and tungsten are INARGUABLY better
But you don't see this as possibly appearing to be a hedge.

better than aluminum or bronze when forging ANY kind of a sword
I've watched enough "Forged in Fire" to know different weapons are used in different ways. Using one to break another (your original analogy) exposes an attacker to a different style of attack.

there are not even coaches at that bad of a level in DI
I would equally assert there is no Iowa wrestler that approaches your equivalent of "aluminum or brass," so what was your point again?

Just admit it isn't as good of an analogy as you think it is, and get over yourself.
 
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98lberEating2Lunches

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Can PSU actually produce WITHOUT starting off almost exclusively with high end steel and tungsten?
Handicapping oneself would contradict the purpose of competition aimed at being the best.
better level of recruit INARGUABLY increases the likelihood of success
That's captain obvious territory, right there. Nobody is arguing against that, are they?

But maybe "better level" needs to consider "best fit" for a given program.
 

Jrjt0518

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Iowa's current p4p ranking for their starters was listed on the "Mid Level recruits..." thread. It made me look up PSU's to compare. After posting the response their, I think this is a VERY important topic that speaks volumes and really needed its own thread

Here is the Iowa rankings as posted by @24timenattychamps :

Spencer #2 p4p
Teske 34 P4P
Woods 21 P4p
Murin 44 p4p
Rathjen 49 p4p (Cobe NR)
Kennedy 3 P4p
Brands 93 p4p
Assad 29 p4p
Warner 7 p4p
Cass 14 p4p

Very solid, but also VERY telling as to why they are still considerable underdogs to PSU. Here is their roster's p4p rankings:

125: Howard #7 P4P (Steen #29)
133: RBY #12 P4P
141: Bartlett #4 P4P
149: Van Ness #4 P4P
157: Haines #9 P4P
165: Facundo #2 P4P
174: Starocci #9 P4P
184: Brooks #2 P4P
197: Dean (The ONLY guy not recruited originally by PSU.) #74 P4P
285: Kerkvliet #1 P4P

That is an average P4P ranking, for those directly recruited, of (50/9)=5.56

Meanwhile, Iowa's average for just those directly recruited is (241/8)=30.02 So, Teske and Woods(55/2)=27.5, would actually bring that average down, ever so slightly, below 30 to 29.6...

Next season, Iowa loses their highest recruit(#2 overall) in Spencer Lee as well as their 3rd highes(#7 overall) in Jacob Warner. They will also lose #44 Murin. PSU only loses, #12 RBY and #74 Dean. Granted, both are NCAA Champs, but they are the "worst" ranked recruits of their starters. With Barr(current #5 P4P in 2023) coming in, they could easily move their lineup around from 157-197 to fill Dean's spot. As of now, 133 looks to be their one and only question mark for 2023-24.

With the above said, PSU wil AGAIN have 9 top 10 P4P, directly recruited guys, almost certainly starting next season. This is a trend that has lasted too long to think anything changes. To have any chance to stay competitive, on the years you don't recruit a Chittum(was #1 P4P before reclassifying), Keuter(#2P4P), Jesuroga(#6P4P), Arnold(#10P4P) along with an "insurance" guy like Block(#24P4P), you STILL need to land 1 guy in that top 10 on the off years, for a NEED weight.

Finally, the formula is actually quite simple to list, but ridiculously difficult to achieve. One big class every 3 years or so where you basically match 2023. In between those 3 years you consistently at least land 1 top 10 at a crucial need weight. Once you get to the 2nd cycle, you should have 7 to even 10 starters in that coveted Top 10P4P range.

tOSU has come pretty close to doing this and they were the only team truly challenging PSU before Spencer arrived at Iowa. For Iowa to truly challenge for the foreseeable futher, they can't let off the recruiting pedal 1 bit. Even with the transfer portal becoming a bigger factor, you have no clue who will be out there to fill a need. Recruiting is the only true way to be as sure as you can be!
Great work msu
 

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