Top Gender clinic in UK to be shut down due to safety concerns

[Colonoscopy]

The Times & The Sunday Times

News and opinion from The Times & The Sunday Times

www.thetimes.co.uk

I think this foreshadows what may be coming down the hike here in America. In a few years we may look at this stuff as a giant disaster.

The battle is over
A) A more holistic, cautious approach to gender treatment that takes into account all the psychological variables a client has vs the
B) "affirm" model of treatment that does little more than affirm the patient's claims and begins treatment swiftly.

A being more traditional, B being what has emerged as favored in activist circles.

 

[Colonoscopy]

Jesse Singal has been covering this issue for a few years now

 

[NorthDSMHawk]

Couple notable things in here.


Cass said these clinics must have “established academic and education functions” to monitor evidence on children who are put on hormone therapy. The Tavistock clinic failed to collect sufficient data on the impact of puberty blockers in under-16s.

....

The clinic has been overwhelmed by a sudden increase in referrals, particularly among young girls and children on the autism spectrum. Last year it received more than 5,000 referrals, compared with 250 a decade ago.

....

Cass’s final report will be published next year. Her interim review published in March found that services had developed without clear rules and that there was a “clinician lottery”, with widely varying approaches to treatment.

She found there was “a lack of agreement, and in many instances a lack of open discussion” about whether unhappiness with gender in adolescence was permanent or temporary. However, last year the Court of Appeal overturned a ruling made by the High Court that children under 16 were unlikely to be able to give informed consent to receiving puberty blockers.

The case was brought against the Tavistock and Portman trust by Keira Bell, 24, who began taking puberty blockers when she was 16 to transition to male before later “detransitioning”.


It seems like I recall these topics being brought up multiple times in the past as areas of concern when dealing with transitioning adolescents.

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

Jesse Singal has been covering this issue for a few years now

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Because simply put the activists on both sides have realized that increasing the cost of opposing them means less people are likely to oppose you and more are likely to just shut up and go along with it.

Honestly we may look at this whole time period as "the cancel wars" which both sides essentially started trying to paint one another as evil incarnate who should not even be allowed to make a living in peace much less be listened to or respected.

 

[Colonoscopy]

Couple notable things in here.


Cass said these clinics must have “established academic and education functions” to monitor evidence on children who are put on hormone therapy. The Tavistock clinic failed to collect sufficient data on the impact of puberty blockers in under-16s.

....

The clinic has been overwhelmed by a sudden increase in referrals, particularly among young girls and children on the autism spectrum. Last year it received more than 5,000 referrals, compared with 250 a decade ago.

....

Cass’s final report will be published next year. Her interim review published in March found that services had developed without clear rules and that there was a “clinician lottery”, with widely varying approaches to treatment.

She found there was “a lack of agreement, and in many instances a lack of open discussion” about whether unhappiness with gender in adolescence was permanent or temporary. However, last year the Court of Appeal overturned a ruling made by the High Court that children under 16 were unlikely to be able to give informed consent to receiving puberty blockers.

The case was brought against the Tavistock and Portman trust by Keira Bell, 24, who began taking puberty blockers when she was 16 to transition to male before later “detransitioning”.


It seems like I recall these topics being brought up multiple times in the past as areas of concern when dealing with transitioning adolescents.

Right. It became taboo amongst certain circles to even raise these sorts of questions, lest you receive a nasty label and become a political outcast. That's really messed up, and that's what seemed to happen.

 

[HostelAlfalfaWilcoxKeto]

Sometimes you gotta sterilize some kids to make an omelette!

And to pay for a new boat.

 

[FAUlty Gator]

Safety concerns? Did someone fall into the vat of dongs again?

 

[HostelAlfalfaWilcoxKeto]

 

[Hawk_82]

How long until this comes out in the USA? I don't think it is too hard to imagine that there would be problems (although most on hrot cant seem to grasp the idea) when there is no real objective diagnostic criteria, plus the political pressure to only provide affirmation treatment, plus the refusal to even listen to opposing views. I would guess 90+% of "trans" kids are not really trans. They are more likely confused/depressed/frustrated/lonely/or have a hard time fitting in.

 

[Menace Sockeyes]

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I think we need to go down a very cautious road with this, but your tweet here is dumb. I could imagine all the psychological harm done to a trans person unable to live the life they wanted. What if transitioning saved her?

 

[binsfeldcyhawk2]

Related...

FDA warns puberty blocker may cause brain swelling, vision loss in children

Earlier this month, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration added a warning to gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH) agonists, commonly known as “puberty blockers

wcyb.com

 

[seminoleed]

View embedded media

That looks like Lori Lightfoot?

 

[seminole97]

The Times & The Sunday Times

News and opinion from The Times & The Sunday Times

www.thetimes.co.uk

I think this foreshadows what may be coming down the hike here in America. In a few years we may look at this stuff as a giant disaster.

The battle is over
A) A more holistic, cautious approach to gender treatment that takes into account all the psychological variables a client has vs the
B) "affirm" model of treatment that does little more than affirm the patient's claims and begins treatment swiftly.

A being more traditional, B being what has emerged as favored in activist circles.

Your words are violence.

 

[Urohawk]

How long until this comes out in the USA? I don't think it is too hard to imagine that there would be problems (although most on hrot cant seem to grasp the idea) when there is no real objective diagnostic criteria for diagnosis, plus the political pressure to only provide affirmation treatment, plus the refusal to even listen to opposing views. I would guess 90+% of "trans" kids are not really trans. They are more likely confused/depressed/frustrated/lonely/or have a hard time fitting in.

You're showing your ignorance. We already know that the majority of kids are not really trans. They don't start therapy. There are objective guidelines for the diagnosis they are in the DSM V which is the guidebook for psychiatric disorders. Under your definition there isn't objective criteria for bipolar disorder, depression, etc. We have debates all the time, in all of medicine.

 

[HostelAlfalfaWilcoxKeto]

I think we need to go down a very cautious road with this

Why start now?

but your tweet here is dumb. I could imagine all the psychological harm done to a trans person unable to live the life they wanted. What if transitioning saved her?

You may be on to something. The dead eyes certainly do tell a story, much like Elliot Page's eyes, of having realized "gender euphoria."

 

[Menace Sockeyes]

Why start now?


You may be on to something. The dead eyes certainly do tell a story, much like Elliot Page's eyes, of having realized "gender euphoria."

I'm going with the American Psychiatric Association, the nation's leading experts on mental health, over some random HROT bro... 😆

A psychological state is considered a mental disorder only if it causes significant distress or disability. Many transgender people do not experience their gender as distressing or disabling, which implies that identifying as transgender does not constitute a mental disorder. For these individuals, the significant problem is finding affordable resources, such as counseling, hormone therapy, medical procedures and the social support necessary to freely express their gender identity and minimize discrimination. Many other obstacles may lead to distress, including a lack of acceptance within society, direct or indirect experiences with discrimination, or assault. These experiences may lead many transgender people to suffer with anxiety, depression or related disorders at higher rates than nontransgender persons.

Answers to your questions about transgender people, gender identity, and gender expression

Transgender is an umbrella term used to describe people whose gender identity (sense of themselves as male or female) or gender expression differs from socially constructed norms associated with their birth sex. This includes androgynous, bigendered and gender queer people, who tend to see...

www.apa.org

 

[HostelAlfalfaWilcoxKeto]

I'm going with the American Psychiatric Association, the nation's leading experts on mental health, over one of the biggest dumbasses on HROT. Sorry, bro... 😆

A psychological state is considered a mental disorder only if it causes significant distress or disability. Many transgender people do not experience their gender as distressing or disabling, which implies that identifying as transgender does not constitute a mental disorder. For these individuals, the significant problem is finding affordable resources, such as counseling, hormone therapy, medical procedures and the social support necessary to freely express their gender identity and minimize discrimination. Many other obstacles may lead to distress, including a lack of acceptance within society, direct or indirect experiences with discrimination, or assault. These experiences may lead many transgender people to suffer with anxiety, depression or related disorders at higher rates than nontransgender persons.

Answers to your questions about transgender people, gender identity, and gender expression

Transgender is an umbrella term used to describe people whose gender identity (sense of themselves as male or female) or gender expression differs from socially constructed norms associated with their birth sex. This includes androgynous, bigendered and gender queer people, who tend to see...

www.apa.org

So it's not a mental disorder, it's medical? Just diagnosed with wrong-body-bornedness?

There's nothing scientific about "gender." You familiar with who came up with "gender identity?"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Money

 

[Menace Sockeyes]

So it's not a mental disorder, it's medical? Just diagnosed with wrong-body-bornedness?

There's nothing scientific about "gender." You familiar with who came up with "gender identity?"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Money

This is covered in my link. Only gender dysphoria is a "disorder". Trans people are not a disorder. They're part of a global community that is perfectly well-adjusted in accepting cultures. And there are quite a few biological factors that contribute to it...

Transgender persons have been documented in many indigenous, Western, and Eastern cultures and societies from antiquity until the present day. However, the meaning of gender nonconformity may vary from culture to culture.
[...]
Many experts believe that biological factors such as genetic influences and prenatal hormone levels, early experiences, and experiences later in adolescence or adulthood may all contribute to the development of transgender identities.

 

[HostelAlfalfaWilcoxKeto]

This is covered in my link. Only gender dysphoria is a "disorder". Trans people are not a disorder. They're part of a global community that is perfectly well-adjusted in accepting cultures. And there are quite a few biological factors that contribute to it...

Transgender persons have been documented in many indigenous, Western, and Eastern cultures and societies from antiquity until the present day. However, the meaning of gender nonconformity may vary from culture to culture.
[...]
Many experts believe that biological factors such as genetic influences and prenatal hormone levels, early experiences, and experiences later in adolescence or adulthood may all contribute to the development of transgender identities.

It's called "personality." We're all non-binary to one extent or another. The entire notion of "trans" reinforces gender conformity. There are two sexes. Gender is just personality.

But we've gotten away from the topic of the thread, which is the medicalization of people - especially children. Europe has finally started to show some restraint in this absolute affirmation model of "treatment."

Did you read up on ol' John Money?

 

[Menace Sockeyes]

It's called "personality." We're all non-binary to one extent or another. The entire notion of "trans" reinforces gender conformity. There are two sexes. Gender is just personality.

But we've gotten away from the topic of the thread, which is the medicalization of people - especially children. Europe has finally started to show some restraint in this absolute affirmation model of "treatment."

I agree that we absolutely need to go away from the binary gender conformity. I think we'll see a lot less surgical procedures as our society becomes more accepting. And hence why I'm okay pumping the brakes on this approach in young people. I also think that it's a lot more complex and deeper rooted in biology than mere "personality".

 

[HostelAlfalfaWilcoxKeto]

I also think that it's a lot more complex and deeper rooted in biology than mere "personality".

Well, can't wait for the evidence of lady brain.

For the time being, we mostly just have dudes with paraphilia and women/girls who feel constrained by expectations of what being female is.

 

[Hawk_82]

You're showing your ignorance. We already know that the majority of kids are not really trans. They don't start therapy. There are objective guidelines for the diagnosis they are in the DSM V which is the guidebook for psychiatric disorders. Under your definition there isn't objective criteria for bipolar disorder, depression, etc. We have debates all the time, in all of medicine.

I said the majority of "trans" kids are not really trans.

We have had this discussion before, you still have not posted why you think the current criteria to diagnose a person trans is appropriate. I have read the wpath. i know the criteria, do you?

The criteria boils down to: "a strong desire to be rid of one sex characteristics". If that is not vague, i dont know what it.

Please show me the objective criteria you mention. It interesting because the previous versions of the wpath actually was objective. Then medicine became woke and removed all the objective stuff. Its sad.

 

[Urohawk]

I said the majority of "trans" kids are not really trans.

We have had this discussion before, you still have not posted why you think the current criteria to diagnose a person trans is appropriate. I have read the wpath. i know the criteria, do you?

The criteria boils down to: "a strong desire to be rid of one sex characteristics". If that is not vague, i dont know what it.

Please show me the objective criteria you mention. It interesting because the previous versions of the wpath actually was objective. Then medicine became woke and removed all the objective stuff. Its sad.

I agree the majority kids claiming to be trans aren't trans. They won't get transitioned medically. The majority of trans kids won't have dysphoria which is what we are actually treating.

I go with the current diagnosis because the DSM is written by psychiatric experts based on consensus.

I'm a transgender surgeon. Pretty sure I know the WPATH guidelines better than you.

 

[Phenomenally Frantastic]

I'm going with the American Psychiatric Association, the nation's leading experts on mental health, over some random HROT bro... 😆

A psychological state is considered a mental disorder only if it causes significant distress or disability.

Why do something like 40% of them commit suicide if they are not mentally distressed?

 

[Colonoscopy]

I agree that we absolutely need to go away from the binary gender conformity. I think we'll see a lot less surgical procedures as our society becomes more accepting. And hence why I'm okay pumping the brakes on this approach in young people. I also think that it's a lot more complex and deeper rooted in biology than mere "personality".

This is a really strange question, though.

What exactly separates someone with X 'male characteristics' in a female body that lives happily within that body vs a person with the same configuration of male characteristics that claims they cannot live in their female body?

Where is the biology different there? The "lady brain", as our friend calls it. Rejecting one's body, wishing it were something different? Maybe that is purely psychological happenstance. (of course you're more likely to have this issue if you do have 'male characteristics' in a body that isn't male)

Perhaps it is dysfunction, viewed from that perspective. Although I don't think the classification question of dysfunction is that interesting, ultimately.

What's interesting is... how do you alleviate their discomfort? And to that extent we see that certain therapies for certain people seem to do that. So, there is an argument for hormone therapy, for surgical intervention.

But the other question is, then: can we avoid the most extreme therapy -- actual bodily modification through surgery and hormones which, if we're being honest, have lots of drawbacks -- in favor of therapy that allows the individual not to hate their body? To be their authentic self with their authentic body? (Which may be reasonable if this is merely psychological in origin)

Maybe that's what our aim should be -- avoid bodily modification when at all possible.

 

[Menace Sockeyes]

Why do something like 40% of them commit suicide if they are not mentally distressed?

In the US. Not so in other cultures. They are mentally distressed by living in a culture, and going to schools in a culture, which bullying and harassment is regularly severe. That’s not their problem. Glad you are concerned about making the world more accepting of trans people. Good for you, brother.

 

[Hawk_82]

I agree the majority kids claiming to be trans aren't trans. They won't get transitioned medically. The majority of trans kids won't have dysphoria which is what we are actually treating.

I go with the current diagnosis because the DSM is written by psychiatric experts based on consensus.

I'm a transgender surgeon. Pretty sure I know the WPATH guidelines better than you.

Fair enough

But why would you as a surgeon need to know the wpath? All the plastic surgeons i know who do gender surgery dont care about the wpath. The patient is in their office for surgery, not psychiatric care.

You agreed that the majority of trans kids are not really trans. As a doctor, dont you find it morally wrong to see these kids being diagnosed trans even though they might not be? Even if most of these people dont make it to medical treatment, i still see this as a problem. (Hence the reason i criticize the diagnosic criteria.)

I can only imagine that type of experience could be very troubling for some individuals.

 

[HostelAlfalfaWilcoxKeto]

I agree the majority kids claiming to be trans aren't trans. They won't get transitioned medically. The majority of trans kids won't have dysphoria which is what we are actually treating.

I go with the current diagnosis because the DSM is written by psychiatric experts based on consensus.

I'm a transgender surgeon. Pretty sure I know the WPATH guidelines better than you.

You ever get a look at a patient's WPATH "tiddy letter," doc?

Is the process leading up to signing-off on a 'tiddy letter" a pretty stringent part of WPATH standards of care?

How many of these paraphilic males actually get their male genitalia removed? Follow up: what's your take home? Per unit, I mean.

 

[WDSMHAWK]

Glad you are concerned about making the world more accepting of trans people. Good for you, brother.

He's not. A lot of the people in these Anti-Trans threads support policies and attitudes that will only make the suicide rate in the trans community go even higher. Then use that number to continue to push the narrative that Trans people are mentally ill.

 

[Menace Sockeyes]

He's not. A lot of the people in these Anti-Trans threads support policies and attitudes that will only make the suicide rate in the trans community go even higher. Then use that number to continue to push the narrative that Trans people are mentally ill.

Nailed it.

 

[Urohawk]

Fair enough

But why would you as a surgeon need to know the wpath? All the plastic surgeons i know who do gender surgery dont care about the wpath. The patient is in their office for surgery, not psychiatric care.

You agreed that the majority of trans kids are not really trans. As a doctor, dont you find it morally wrong to see these kids being diagnosed trans even though they might not be? Even if most of these people dont make it to medical treatment, i still see this as a problem. (Hence the reason i criticize the diagnosic criteria.)

I can only imagine that type of experience could be very troubling for some individuals.

The WPATH guidelines have recommendations for who gets surgery with things like age requirements, how long they must live in gender, how long they have to be on hormones, etc.

Most of the not truly trans kids will sort themselves out with time. Those that don't, will get screened out by psych. Many of them are just a phase that makes them popular on Instagram. It's pretty easy to spot those. I compare them to goth kids back in the 80s and 90s. I probably reject 20% of the patients I see as I don't feel comfortable with where they're at, they don't have the support system to recovery safely from surgery, or they're showing signs of worsening mental health- cutting, suicidal idealiations, etc.

To give you the example of the right people to do this surgery on: I'll see someone in their late teens/early 20s. They're from a super rural place. Their parents are conservative Christians. The kind of folks that come to the doctors offices in cowboy hats and boots. These are not people coddling their kids to become trans. No San Francisco hippies here. They say things like, "I knew there was something different with our child at age 5." They have 3 other totally normal siblings. The kid has spent their entire life behaving and acting as if they're the other gender. That's who does well with surgery.

 

[Colonoscopy]

The kid has spent their entire life behaving and acting as if they're the other gender. That's who does well with surgery.

These are the sorts that traditionally were the only ones who made it to surgery. I think the Dutch, in the 90s, were the ones who pioneered the treatment and had research to backup its efficacy.

The concern nowdays is that we're seeing a big influx of people claiming to be trans and that prior model of treatment I mentioned above is not a good fit. There's a lot of infighting and debate amongst the treatment gatekeepers -- groups like WPATH -- about what exactly should be done, and what exactly is going on.

It may be that your particular expertise hasn't been affected as much. It seems most of the concern, by numbers, today is amongst young females with teen onset gender dysphoria that get fast tracked through the system and end up on hormones and or with top surgery.

 

[HostelAlfalfaWilcoxKeto]

The kid has spent their entire life behaving and acting as if they're the other gender. That's who does well with surgery.

How do genders act?

What a bunch of quackery.

 

[HostelAlfalfaWilcoxKeto]

He's not. A lot of the people in these Anti-Trans threads support policies and attitudes that will only make the suicide rate in the trans community go even higher. Then use that number to continue to push the narrative that Trans people are mentally ill.

Anything less than affirmation is anti-trans and abetting suicide.

 

[Urohawk]

These are the sorts that traditionally were the only ones who made it to surgery. I think the Dutch, in the 90s, were the ones who pioneered the treatment and had research to backup its efficacy.

The concern nowdays is that we're seeing a big influx of people claiming to be trans and that prior model of treatment I mentioned above is not a good fit. There's a lot of infighting and debate amongst the treatment gatekeepers -- groups like WPATH -- about what exactly should be done, and what exactly is going on.

It may be that your particular expertise hasn't been affected as much. It seems most of the concern, by numbers, today is amongst young females with teen onset gender dysphoria that get fast tracked through the system and end up on hormones and or with top surgery.

A few questions:

1. What do you do for a living?
2. Your sources for this information?
3. Can you point on the doll where the trans person touched you?

 

[Colonoscopy]

A few questions:

1. What do you do for a living?
2. Your sources for this information?
3. Can you point on the doll where the trans person touched you?

1. Software engineer.

2. Everything from the NYT -- I recently shared a lengthy article of theirs pointing out some of the ideas I referenced above -- through journalist sorts on substack that track the issue. (like Jesse Signal) The issue was getting a ton of play so I started reading about it.

3. You're not doing well with this. If you actually pay attention to my postings you'll see that I'm not some trans hating bigot.

 

[Urohawk]

1. Software engineer.

2. Everything from the NYT -- I recently shared a lengthy article of theirs pointing out some of the ideas I referenced above -- through journalist sorts on substack that track the issue. (like Jesse Signal) The issue was getting a ton of play so I started reading about it.

3. You're not doing well with this. If you actually pay attention to my postings you'll see that I'm not some trans hating bigot.

My point is you're also not an expert. The stuff much of the people on this board push is one step above right wing propaganda. Does the system need reform? Sure. Can we do better? Always. Do we need to completely stop giving trans care? Absolutely not.

 

[Hawk_82]

I agree that we absolutely need to go away from the binary gender conformity. I think we'll see a lot less surgical procedures as our society becomes more accepting. And hence why I'm okay pumping the brakes on this approach in young people. I also think that it's a lot more complex and deeper rooted in biology than mere "personality".

I dont think that is the right way to go.

Instead we should accept that we are all different, like red heads are different than brunettes. One is not better, they are just different. But a red head does not need to change their birth certificate to state they

The WPATH guidelines have recommendations for who gets surgery with things like age requirements, how long they must live in gender, how long they have to be on hormones, etc.

Most of the not truly trans kids will sort themselves out with time. Those that don't, will get screened out by psych. Many of them are just a phase that makes them popular on Instagram. It's pretty easy to spot those. I compare them to goth kids back in the 80s and 90s. I probably reject 20% of the patients I see as I don't feel comfortable with where they're at, they don't have the support system to recovery safely from surgery, or they're showing signs of worsening mental health- cutting, suicidal idealiations, etc.

To give you the example of the right people to do this surgery on: I'll see someone in their late teens/early 20s. They're from a super rural place. Their parents are conservative Christians. The kind of folks that come to the doctors offices in cowboy hats and boots. These are not people coddling their kids to become trans. No San Francisco hippies here. They say things like, "I knew there was something different with our child at age 5." They have 3 other totally normal siblings. The kid has spent their entire life behaving and acting as if they're the other gender. That's who does well with surgery.

I totally agree with your example of people to do surgery on. I do believe there truly are trans people. They are not what i get concerned about.

I am concerned about the 20% of patients who make it through to your office. It is concerning to me that these kids are being sent down a path where surgery is even an option. It seems clear that if they dont need surgery, they probably need other help.

 

[EasyHawk]

 

[Menace Sockeyes]

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How many times do we have to debunk this before morons stop posting it? “Gender-affirming treatment” is NOT “puberty blockers”. I implore all MAGAts: Stop being mindless sheep parroting RNC propaganda without engaging your critical thinking skills. Cool?