Toussaint was broken

Gus is dead

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Aug 14, 2022
690
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I too was a big fan of Joe T and loved his energy and he seemed like a really good teammate ... but as you said, he is in a better system now for him.

Fran gave him EVERY opportunity to fit his system but he didn't. He wasn't undervalued - if anything, the fans overvalued him because they wanted so badly for him to succeed and be the guy.

Fran is well known for letting his players have a lot of free reign in their games and having the green light and building up their confidence ... Joe just couldn't quite figure it out and hopefully in a very different system/style, he will find more consistency.

There is not doubt Fran made the right move taking Joe out of the starting line-up and inserting Perkins.
Perkins is a big upgrade. Hell even the solid play out of Bowen last night is encouraging. With Ulis also likely to get quite a few minutes i don’t think the upside JT brought relative to his downside were enough to displace the amount of minutes he wanted, from the others mentioned. I think his transfer is good for all parties.
 

owenhawk

HR All-American
Dec 6, 2004
3,068
4,747
113
Iowa, Cedar Rapids
Perkins is a big upgrade. Hell even the solid play out of Bowen last night is encouraging. With Ulis also likely to get quite a few minutes i don’t think the upside JT brought relative to his downside were enough to displace the amount of minutes he wanted, from the others mentioned. I think his transfer is good for all parties.
Agreed - will likely work out for both sides just fine.
 
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Bro D

HR Legend
Nov 17, 2003
20,999
12,388
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Perkins is a big upgrade. Hell even the solid play out of Bowen last night is encouraging. With Ulis also likely to get quite a few minutes i don’t think the upside JT brought relative to his downside were enough to displace the amount of minutes he wanted, from the others mentioned. I think his transfer is good for all parties.
I dont think much of the argument is about him leaving.. Him transferring this year makes sense with tonys ability to play pg, bowen coming in and Ulis being here. The argument was all about his (mis)usage the last two seasons and the terrible overuse of Connor.. but as noted, that's not something that should be a factor this year because we'll need Connor to contribute.
 

owenhawk

HR All-American
Dec 6, 2004
3,068
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Iowa, Cedar Rapids
I'm skeptical that he's going to make some huge improvement, but I'm rooting for it and we'll need it this year. If can become more consistent and make the defenses not sag completely off him, sign me up. More than anything, we need him this year with the early season questions off the bench. I literally think every minute he played last year should have gone to any combination of kris, sandfort, perkins, joe t. Him taking minutes from more deserving players isn't8 really an option this season (atleast at i hope not) so we really need him to make those improvements
Joe T and CMac had virtually the exact Advanced stats last year - both were good defensively with Joe T being a little higher ranked and CMac actually was more efficient Offensively than Joe T (Joe T was worse than everyone but Ulis in the regular rotation).

Joe T played more minutes than CMac (CMac was literally 8th on the team in minutes). I know I am not going to change your mind but the reality is CMac has and is a valuable role player off the bench, just like Joe T was. They are totally different players that bring value in much different ways. Neither are superstars and there play on the floor has dictated why they are 7th/8th type players in the rotation.

Fran literally gave him the shot to own the PG position last year for half the year. He didn't take advantage of it and the change was made (for the betterment of the team and it worked out very well) and guess what, Perkins took the opportunity and ran with it and has become a likely all-conference type player for the next few years.

Doesn't mean we didn't all love Joe T and his energy and passion. But he couldn't be consistent and take advantage of it. He could of stayed and have been a valuable role player - like CMac - but chose to go another route. I don't blame him and maybe a new system and a fresh start works out for him.

But CMac didn't steal his minutes and CMac - as has been proven time and again - has value to the team and in the rotation that simple scoring average/shooting pct doesn't show.
 

Franisdaman

HR King
Nov 3, 2012
61,940
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So since he made assurances - and the players that were given the opportunity didn't take advantage and run with that opportunity - Fran should have kept them at PG and not moved JBo back mid-season when it wasn't working like it should? To the detriment of the whole team?

That's BS. Before the move was made, a lot of the fanbase was pissed at Fran and predicting the season was slipping away and Iowa wasn't even going to make the NCAA Tournament. Fran made a move that he thought would make the team better - and he was right - and it doesn't matter if he made "assurances". It wasn't working because Joe T and Ulis weren't able to take control of the reigns.

after the loss to Iowa State, at least one poster said Fran should be fired
 
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Franisdaman

HR King
Nov 3, 2012
61,940
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Heaven, Iowa
I'm over the argument... I'm in the camp that thinks he was criminally mis-used. I acknowledge his faults but he had way too quick of a hook. One of the best on the ball and help defenders and transition guards we've had and its shocking he didn't get a longer of a leash... but I really don't care anymore since he's not a hawk.. other than some random sarcastic comments.. and wish him nothing but the best. Think he'll kill it in West Virginia. But its Bowen time and I'm excited

You are over the argument but then you say he was criminally misused. Wow. Talk about a reach.

He was given the opportunity to start 20 of the 31 games in his freshman (2019-2020) season. But that's criminal misuse to you.

He was given the opportunity to start 21 games in the 2021-2022 season. Iowa's record with Joe as a starter was 14-7, 4-6. Luckily, Fran made the right choices for the team on Feb 6, vs Minnesota, when he put Jordan back at starting PG, Tony at the 2 guard, and having Joe coming of the bench. The results speak for themselves. Iowa won 12 of its last 14 and its record went from 14-7 to 26-9. They won a B1G Tournament Championship for the first time since 2006. And Iowa went from being in danger of not making the NCAA Tournament to a 5 seed.

Nobody was misused. Fran simply made the right decision for the team when he benched Joe.
 

SDHawkDoc

HR Heisman
Jan 27, 2013
9,076
9,539
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Toussaint made the right move for him. He was just never going to be a good fit for what Fran wanted. His best attribute, as a defender, is the opposite of what Fran values in a PG. I'm surprised he stayed as long as he did.
 
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The Deplorable Sleeping Dog

HR Heisman
Gold Member
May 9, 2018
6,956
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What is the primary metric of a PG's skill? Assists, perhaps. Iowa replaced Joe T at point with the school's career leader in assists. Need good FT shooting to win games. Iowa replaced Joe T with the school's career best free thrower, especially in the closing minutes of a tight game. Oh, the same guy is also the Big Ten's career three-point leader.

Very smart move. Hate to break a kid's heart but team first.
 

Kabby

HR All-American
Gold Member
Aug 21, 2002
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I'm over the argument... I'm in the camp that thinks he was criminally mis-used. I acknowledge his faults but he had way too quick of a hook. One of the best on the ball and help defenders and transition guards we've had and its shocking he didn't get a longer of a leash... but I really don't care anymore since he's not a hawk.. other than some random sarcastic comments.. and wish him nothing but the best. Think he'll kill it in West Virginia. But its Bowen time and I'm excited
he got a quick hook because he would make 3-4 turnovers in a blink of an eye.
 
Sep 14, 2019
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I-O-W-A
No it can't... but I'd also state we don't win the Big Ten championship without Joe T.

Will be following him this year a wish him well.
I can agree with this. Joe T was the one guy in that Big 10 title game that shut down Ivey. Without him, it's tough to really say what would have happened.

That said, I believe Tony is going to be the best fit at PG this season, and I expect Bowen/Ulis to give us solid minutes as well.
 

BBHawk

HR Legend
Oct 31, 2001
30,938
25,270
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Iowa City
I can agree with this. Joe T was the one guy in that Big 10 title game that shut down Ivey. Without him, it's tough to really say what would have happened.

That said, I believe Tony is going to be the best fit at PG this season, and I expect Bowen/Ulis to give us solid minutes as well.
Joe played 10 minutes against Purdue in that game. What about the other 30?
 
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littlez

HR Heisman
Jan 29, 2003
8,305
7,679
113
I was a pretty big Joe T fan but I've come around to Fran making the correct decision. I liked Joe as an on ball defender and his ability to penetrate but as some have pointed out we were pretty much stuck in neutral w/him as the starting pt guard and JBo was not a shooting guard, and it really weakened us defensively. Perkins has really come on and seems full of confidence, not even the same player.
 

owenhawk

HR All-American
Dec 6, 2004
3,068
4,747
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Iowa, Cedar Rapids
I can agree with this. Joe T was the one guy in that Big 10 title game that shut down Ivey. Without him, it's tough to really say what would have happened.

That said, I believe Tony is going to be the best fit at PG this season, and I expect Bowen/Ulis to give us solid minutes as well.
That can be said about all 11 guys that played in the Big 10 Tournament. That was truly a real TEAM championship in that pretty much everyone of the scholarship guys had big moments and needed contributions.
 

ChiPackHawk

HR MVP
Jan 10, 2018
1,967
3,370
113
And we probably don't win the B1G Championship without Josh Ogundele. Interesting that both entered the transfer portal and one came back to Iowa.

I will be interested to see if Joe gets his 30 plus minutes/game that he was wanting from Fran.
Joe will get 30 minutes if he shows he can "value the basketball" by limiting turnovers, and facilitate an offense rather than trying to do something special far too often.
 

Hawk_4shur

HR Legend
Jan 2, 2009
16,351
22,553
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I liked Joe as a Hawk and wish him the best of luck,

I do not think he was misused by Fran.

Joe's strengths were toughness, defense, quickness to the ball. FG% for his career was 40% - pretty good.

But he averaged 4.1 TO's and 4.3 PF's per 40 minutes. He didn't run the offense as well as other IMO.

And here is the clincher IMO - as a PG, his job was to get the ball to Garza and Joe W his freshman year, Garza his soph year and Keegan last year - 3 of the best scorers in Iowa history - not to drive the middle and put up questionable shots (a fair amount of which went in, surprisingly).

Good player - hope he does well at WVa, but he didn't fit the role Fran wanted at Iowa.
 

BlameIt

Scout Team
Aug 23, 2009
127
185
43
Joe Toussaint is no longer a Hawkeye. Who gives a rip? We have other players we can focus on. I won't spend one second caring about how Joe is doing once the regular season starts.
 
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WestCoastHawkI

HR All-State
Mar 4, 2021
515
967
93
Joe Toussaint is no longer a Hawkeye. Who gives a rip? We have other players we can focus on. I won't spend one second caring about how Joe is doing once the regular season starts.

Once a Hawkeye. Always a Hawkeye. Except for CJ Fredrick, Pierre Pierce and a few others. Joe left on good terms so I'll root for him. Same with Austin Ash.
 

jo12208

All-Conference
Sep 9, 2006
466
333
63
I always liked Joe, but you could tell he put too much pressure on himself to do something spectacular every time he got into the game. I’ve said from the beginning Fran mismanaged him. Joe would have been a lockdown defender and could have developed into a really special point guard if he’d been given a legitimate opportunity. Unfortunately for him, his skill set wasn’t valued as much as social media darlings and sick post feeds wereThe

He wasn’t allowed to play his game because his game was very inefficient. He couldn’t shoot and turned the ball over. The advanced stats showed that each year he was here. Love him as a person but Fran used him as much as he should have, and no more.

WV will put up with worse efficiency because they try to make up for it with defense and athleticism. Hope he kills it there but don’t imply Iowa treated him unfairly.
Reminds me of the Padilla situation.
 

owenhawk

HR All-American
Dec 6, 2004
3,068
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Iowa, Cedar Rapids
Except Joe actually got to play. It would be like inserting Joe into the 2nd half of the Gonzaga game, down 15, and basing his entire playing time off of that.
Yeah, it's not like it at all. Joe was the STARTER for half the year last year. I am not sure what some people are missing about this. He got his opportunity and he wasn't able to fully take advantage of it.

Doesn't mean he's a bad guy or a bad player. By all accounts he's a great kid, hard worker, and good teammate. He's a solid - if inconsistent - Guard who does a few things well and struggles with others. He would be a welcome addition to this year's team and would be a rotational player.

He decided to pursue a different route where he thinks he will get more time and that might fit his style of play better. But Fran didn't misuse or under-utilize him. He gave him the reigns and told him to own ... and he couldn't.
 

smittyhawk

HR MVP
Gold Member
Dec 10, 2004
1,193
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I was disappointed when Joe decided to leave. However, Joe was not consistent in his play at PG. He was very good at times and very poor at times. For whatever reason he had a very difficult time slowing down and letting the game come to him. He also was inconsistent shooting the 3 pointer and other outside shots. He also was not very good at running the offense.

On the defensive side his quickness made some big, big plays at times. There were certainly a few games when his defensive play gave a spark to the team.

It will be interesting to see how he does at West Virginia.
 
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smittyhawk

HR MVP
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Dec 10, 2004
1,193
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I was disappointed when Joe decided to leave. However, Joe was not consistent in his play at PG. He was very good at times and very poor at times. For whatever reason he had a very difficult time slowing down and letting the game come to him. He also was inconsistent shooting the 3 pointer and other outside shots. He also was not very good at running the offense.

On the defensive side his quickness made some big, big plays at times. There were certainly a few games when his defensive play gave a spark to the team.

It will be interesting to see how he does at West Virginia.
Played 17 minutes in a reserve role last night.
 

Herky T Hawk

HR Heisman
Feb 5, 2003
6,410
5,339
113
I said this last season during our run after he moved to the bench. Until the game slows down for him and he can play big minutes avoiding the turnovers and fouls, he is better served coming off the bench as an instant shot of energy on both ends of the court. He played like the Tasmanian Devil, whirling around the court wreaking havoc while on defense and moving way too fast on offense. Sometimes great things happen when he maintains control, sometimes he fouls or turns the ball over a bunch when he gets out of control. But that style can work fine for a 6-8 minute stretch in the middle of each half. You don’t want it at the beginning of the half as it could dig a huge hole for you and you don’t want it towards the end of each half as it can cost you momentum significanly if it doesn’t go well. All of that can change for him though as he matures and understands the college game better.
 
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SDHawkDoc

HR Heisman
Jan 27, 2013
9,076
9,539
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I wouldn't have guessed wvu as the place he'd land, but he made a good call in moving on. Although pitt is expected to finish near the lower end of the acc that's still a nice line for him against a team that isn't in the bottom 100 of D1.
Ultimately it probably works out well for Fran as that eliminates a potentially contentious issue around minutes.
 

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