Toussaint

[hawkifann]

did you watch thegame last night?? Two of the few times Connor brought up the ball he turned it over in very limited minutes.

it’s not all about turnovers either we need a PG that can get the ball up the court in a reasonable time on the shot clock. Or push the ball on a missed bucket by opponent.

We were obviously a better team with limited Connor minutes. We need Joe T or Ulis to emerge to make a deep run. Imagine if we played a team like West Virginia in the NCAAs.

I’m not arguing for more minutes for Connor. I’m saying a rough few minutes last night doesn’t outweigh the overwhelming majority of his playing time across 51 games over 2 seasons. He mostly handles time at PG adequately without turning the ball over. Is he the best PG around? No.

I actually want Joe T to get more minutes and he needs to get a bit more leash from Fran, but he’s been a shell of what he was last year.

 

[24 so far]

The non-pressured dribble off the foot before half is something I don't ever recall seeing that happen in a Big10 game (30+ years watching).....What was the other TO? I wasn't watching really close.....guessing a lazy pass, but I can't recall for sure...

It's not a good look dribbling between the legs and goes out of bounds but I have seen it before, it's rare of course. I think the "lazy pass" turnover just slipped out of his hand, he's not Magic Johnson but he can make an easy pass which that was but it was so bad it had to slip out of his hand, IMO. Not good but it can happen.

 

[Jizzer]

Lol you're also the guy who said Garza was a better defender than Cockburn because Garza had a defensive rating of 100 (now 102) & Cockburn's is 92.3...which obviously would mean Cockburn is a better defender.

A. I clearly must have had a moment and had them backwards.
B. What does this have to do with Joe's terrible play?

 

[AwkHawk]

Am I the only one actually paying attention during games? Joe has a 10.8 PER since conference games began. 10.8! That is terrible. Bohannon's is 20. Ulis 14.8. He's the 3rd best PG on this team right now, and I'm pretty sure I'd play Perkins ahead of him as well. He can't shoot 3's, he can't shoot FTs, he constantly is late on zone transition defense, he constantly drives and stops at full speed sliding his feet, doesn't rebound, and his A:TO ratio is 1:1. Fran is playing his best players right now, including playing Keegan over Connor for most of the game.

A. I clearly must have had a moment and had them backwards.
B. What does this have to do with Joe's terrible play?

Can you be specific about last night and what was so terrible about Joe's play compared to others? You gave generalizations and quoted PER which would be skewed when someone gets pulled from the game after a turnover and is never put back in. Other players were more careless with the ball and one guard was essentially a turnstile for their guards to go right by to the hoop.

Some additional context of PER I found with a google search that could further explain Joe’s low number:
“PER largely measures offensive performance. Hollinger freely admits that the two defensive statistics it incorporates—blocks and steals—can produce a distorted picture of a player’s value... for example, Bruce Bowen, widely regarded as one of the best defenders when he was in the NBA routinely posted single digit PER numbers.”

 

[Rifler]

Joe likes to occasionally turn the ball over however, this is acceptable provided he's also scoring and making assists,.. When this equation isn't in balance Joe tends to be on the bench...

 

[SB_SB]

JT just needs to calm down and control his energy. For some reason he thinks he needs to be the opposite of JBo and we really need a combined JT/JBo. There's no way you can be a successful shooter when your body is always moving and you never have a consistent shooting style. I get tired just watching JT.

 

[twindman]

Those praising Connor's a/to ration - if all you do is dribble around and pass around the perimeter, you shouldn't turn the ball over!! It also doesn't put ANY pressure on the defense. I see Connor drive into the lane maybe once or twice a game and usually he has to make an awkward off-balance shot that rarely falls. Of course Joe does this too, but he drives way more often and with more practice should be able to find someone open or pull up for a 10 ft jumper (which he has done once in a while).
Joe has a much better chance to be a good point guard than Connor, in my opinion. He is not there yet and won't get there sitting on the bench.

 

[SB_SB]

Those praising Connor's a/to ration - if all you do is dribble around and pass around the perimeter, you shouldn't turn the ball over!! It also doesn't put ANY pressure on the defense. I see Connor drive into the lane maybe once or twice a game and usually he has to make an awkward off-balance shot that rarely falls. Of course Joe does this too, but he drives way more often and with more practice should be able to find someone open or pull up for a 10 ft jumper (which he has done once in a while).
Joe has a much better chance to be a good point guard than Connor, in my opinion. He is not there yet and won't get there sitting on the bench.

I think you're misunderstanding what people are saying. I think everyone would love for JT to be the PG. A lot of the discussion about CM was a comparison between him and JBo. To me JBo doesn't bring any value bringing the ball up the court, as you said CM can do that. JBo should be spending more time trying to get open and let someone else handle the ball. We just need JT to play in control and if he does then I think he's be a much better player.

 

[24 so far]

Joe likes to occasionally turn the ball over however, this is acceptable provided he's also scoring and making assists,.. When this equation isn't in balance Joe tends to be on the bench...

It's pretty clear to me Fran doesn't trust him, and frankly neither do I. To me Joe T is the guy who drives 75 mph on an icy road and can't fathom how he ended up upside down in the ditch.

His speed and quickness are off the charts but he can't harness it properly so it's a clear advantage to his team IMO.

He seems like a good kid, so I hope it gets better for him, but I'm skeptical that's going to happen to the degree I as a fan want it to.

 

[Jizzer]

Can you be specific about last night and tell me what was so terrible about Joe's play compared to others? You gave generalizations and quoted PER which would be skewed when someone gets pulled from the game after a turnover and is never put back in. Other players were more careless with the ball and one guard was essentially a turnstile for their guards to go right by to the hoop.

"PER which would be skewed when someone gets pulled from the game after a turnover and is never put back in." This makes no sense.

I'm assuming you are talking about Bohannon's turnovers last night, which were really bad for him, but it also was very rare. He takes really good care of the ball. In 336 less minutes, Joe has more turnovers than Bohannon. Repeat, in 336 less minutes, Joe has more turnovers than Bohannon. That is a full 8.5 games more time played with less turnovers. How can anyone want those turnovers from your PG? Next year, Joe will get quality minutes and we will see, but what has transpired this year, doesn't justify playing Joe more. Further, Joe's offensive efficiency is 94.4, the next lowest on the team is PM 114.6. Connor's is 117.1 and he gets roasted on here.

As for last night, 6:36 mark of the first half, playing zone defense, Joe doesn't slide down on Sweatband boy, who gets a wide open pass underneath, to which he is called for tripping. Turnover at the end of the half, was his fault for being out of control. It's far too common with him, completely out of control. He needs to slow down. Fran brought in Perkins before Joe the second half last night, and deservedly so, he has been playing way better.

On a per 40 min basis:
Joe - 41% 2 pt FG%, 22% from 3, 68% FT, 3.3 Rb, 3 Steals, 1.5 A/TO ratio. Off eff % 94.4, Def eff% 102.4.
Jbo- 40% 2 pt FG%, 39% from 3, 89% FT, 4.7 Rb, 1 Steal, 3.2 A/TO ratio. Off eff% 122.9, Def eff% 108.1.
What makes you want Joe, as a soph, to be playing over the 5th year Senior? Because everyone on here screams about Jbo's defense?
There's a better argument to be made for both Perkins and Ulis.

 

[Rifler]

It's pretty clear to me Fran doesn't trust him, and frankly neither do I. To me Joe T is the guy who drives 75 mph on an icy road and can't fathom how he ended up upside down in the ditch. His speed and quickness are off the charts but he can't harness it properly so it's a clear advantage to his team IMO. He seems like a good kid, so I hope it gets better for him, but I'm skeptical that's going to happen to the degree I as a fan want it to.

I keep going back to how Joe anchored the position last season when Bohannon shut it down,.. He has the ability to do this...

 

[HoustonREDHawk]

I am starting to be concerned about whether JoeT will be back next year. He continues to make bad mistakes with the ball when he first hits the court, and Fran seems to have had enough of it. He has the physical tools to be a key contributor going forward, but right now he seems to be snake-bitten and losing ground in the rotation. I hope that he gets the opportunity to turn that around, because I think one good game to change all of that quickly.

 

[AwkHawk]

If you get into a game, play 2 minutes and get a turnover and then get pulled and never go back into the game, wouldn’t your PER be pretty bad for that game? That’s the way I understand the formula.

And yes, it doesn’t take into account Joe’s defense he plays and the pressure he puts on the other team. I agree that Perkins and Ulis add that element as well. It just seems that defense isn’t valued on this team and Joe isn’t allowed to make the same mistakes the rest of the team makes.

 

[StormHawk42]

Hopefully he pulls an Anthony Clemmons, doesn’t transfer, and buckles down to earn his minutes back. I think he has that capability. Not sure he’ll stick it out though. Playing Ulis and Perkins in the 2H was a pretty clear message.

 

[AwkHawk]

Hopefully he pulls an Anthony Clemmons, doesn’t transfer, and buckles down to earn his minutes back. I think he has that capability. Not sure he’ll stick it out though. Playing Ulis and Perkins in the 2H was a pretty clear message.

I agree. Pulling for Joe, as I think there should be opportunities for him next year on this squad and it would be exciting to see if he and Perkins, Ulis, PMac will develop and take a step up next year. We could go from being fairly unathletic team with poor defense to a very athletic team that would seemingly give opposing teams fits.

 

[unoHawkeye]

Pretty crazy how Fran was talking about how Toussaint was practicing like a senior coming into the year, and now he can’t get more than 5 minutes on the court unless he basically makes no mistakes. If I’m Joe, I see the minutes opportunity next year, but am pissed enough that I’m strongly considering a change in scenery

Hopefully he sticks it out because I’m pretty confident that he’s going to be a consistently productive player at some point

 

[EpenesaEpenesa]

Toussaint isnt perfect. He makes mistakes, but you can't just abandon him. Need to start letting him play through mistakes

 

[Slim45]

Pretty crazy how Fran was talking about how Toussaint was practicing like a senior coming into the year, and now he can’t get more than 5 minutes on the court unless he basically makes no mistakes. If I’m Joe, I see the minutes opportunity next year, but am pissed enough that I’m strongly considering a change in scenery

Hopefully he sticks it out because I’m pretty confident that he’s going to be a consistently productive player at some point

Agree 100%. I put a lot of the blame on fran for his usage of joe. I understand being upset with turnovers, but how is a kid supposed to get comfortable and play confident when he gets yanked after his first mistake every game. I feel like joe could/should play a big part in any success we have come march, and fran is doing a big disservice to him and the team by not giving him minutes and getting his confidence up. Go back 3 games to msu, played a HUGE part in that win and ever since has rode the pine. Makes zero sense.

 

[Ronman]

Toussaint isnt perfect. He makes mistakes, but you can't just abandon him. Need to start letting him play through mistakes

Normally, I would totally agree with you, but we are coming out of a very poor stretch and this team needs wins. All of our games have been extremely close, both wins and losses. You just can't afford to put a guy of the floor that immediately starts handing the ball over to the opposition. Each possession is just too important.

I like JoeT and thought his development would be a major asset to the Hawks this season, but instead, he seems to have taken a step back. Not giving up on him, but it is up to him to play better when given the chance. McCaffery isn't going to pull a guy that's helping the team win.

 

[AwkHawk]

Normally, I would totally agree with you, but we are coming out of a very poor stretch and this team needs wins. All of our games have been extremely close, both wins and losses. You just can't afford to put a guy of the floor that immediately starts handing the ball over to the opposition. Each possession is just too important.

I like JoeT and thought his development would be a major asset to the Hawks this season, but instead, he seems to have taken a step back. Not giving up on him, but it is up to him to play better when given the chance. McCaffery isn't going to pull a guy that's helping the team win.

Against MSU Toussaint had a turnover but Fran let him stay in and he finished with 10 pats and 6 assists while helping bring us back into the game with good defense and that 1 turnover was what he ended with.

Then we didn’t even see him the following game. So I’m not sure what he did for Fran to bench him or what he has to do to earn more trust like the other players that are allowed to make mistakes.

 

[Slim45]

Normally, I would totally agree with you, but we are coming out of a very poor stretch and this team needs wins. All of our games have been extremely close, both wins and losses. You just can't afford to put a guy of the floor that immediately starts handing the ball over to the opposition. Each possession is just too important.

I like JoeT and thought his development would be a major asset to the Hawks this season, but instead, he seems to have taken a step back. Not giving up on him, but it is up to him to play better when given the chance. McCaffery isn't going to pull a guy that's helping the team win.

That’s the problem...he isn’t really getting a chance. You can’t play with confidence when you get 3-5mpg and are afraid that when you make a mistake you’ll be on the bench the rest of the game. There just doesn’t seem to be any consistency to frans usage of him, plays very well against msu in 21min. Next 3 games he gets 7,4,5 min. I dont get it!

 

[Pepperman]

So much of this thread is about his turnovers or poor shooting. Like most threads here posters are way too wrapped up in offense. I bet Bohannon’s defense has given up more points in those 336 minutes (or whatever number it was) than JT’s turnovers have.

 

[Hawksfinal4]

That’s the problem...he isn’t really getting a chance. You can’t play with confidence when you get 3-5mpg and are afraid that when you make a mistake you’ll be on the bench the rest of the game. There just doesn’t seem to be any consistency to frans usage of him, plays very well against msu in 21min. Next 3 games he gets 7,4,5 min. I dont get it!

Maybe Joe needs to have a sit down with Coach and talk through some things, seems like it’s time for better communication, who’s not communicating I’ve no idea and truth maybe it’s nothing at all but hope Joe works through whatever is problem if there is one and continues to play well in practice and when he gets opportunity again plays well

 

[unoHawkeye]

Agree 100%. I put a lot of the blame on fran for his usage of joe. I understand being upset with turnovers, but how is a kid supposed to get comfortable and play confident when he gets yanked after his first mistake every game. I feel like joe could/should play a big part in any success we have come march, and fran is doing a big disservice to him and the team by not giving him minutes and getting his confidence up. Go back 3 games to msu, played a HUGE part in that win and ever since has rode the pine. Makes zero sense.

He was the only reason we kept the Gonzaga game close too. The element of getting to the hoop on offense and energy he brings defensively makes it frustrating that he doesn’t get more minutes. The turnovers suck, but him not getting a chance to redeem himself in a given game sucks more

 

[mooresville hawk]

I do not think it is surprising that Joe is struggling this year. He knew he was going to play last year because Iowa had no other options. He was also a freshman and it was expected that he would make mistakes. He played well and showed that he has a lot of potential though.

I do believe Joe is pressing right now as he knows his minutes are limited. My hope is that Joe works through these issues and gains confidence as he can still have a very bright future at Iowa. Joe and Patrick are great friends and roommates, which gives me hope that Joe does not transfer. I do think he, Ahron, CJ and Tony can be a very strong group of guards for the next few years.

 

[Jizzer]

If you get into a game, play 2 minutes and get a turnover and then get pulled and never go back into the game, wouldn’t your PER be pretty bad for that game? That’s the way I understand the formula.

And yes, it doesn’t take into account Joe’s defense he plays and the pressure he puts on the other team. I agree that Perkins and Ulis add that element as well. It just seems that defense isn’t valued on this team and Joe isn’t allowed to make the same mistakes the rest of the team makes.

It's based off of your time on the court, not based off of your eye test/opinion. Whether he's playing 5 minutes or 30, doesn't matter. If he plays better, it'll go up. Personally, he remind me a ton of Clemmons. Really surprising first year, got all fans excited, then sophomore year was a battle. Came back to be a really solid player the last two years. Hoping Joe follows suit.
I clearly understand that Joe is a better defender than Bohannon, however, what pressure does Joe put on, when we play a zone defense most of the game. We have to play a zone, because our whole team leans towards being below average defenders (outside of Keegan). Whether it's Joe or Jordan, it doesn't matter, if Weiskamp, Luka, or CJ struggle stopping the drives as well. If we were playing man to man, and Jordan's guy kept scoring all the points while our other guys were shutting their opponents down, I'd understand the rationale, but that's not the case. To me, the small different in defense, isn't worth the large difference in offense.

 

[Jizzer]

That’s the problem...he isn’t really getting a chance. You can’t play with confidence when you get 3-5mpg and are afraid that when you make a mistake you’ll be on the bench the rest of the game. There just doesn’t seem to be any consistency to frans usage of him, plays very well against msu in 21min. Next 3 games he gets 7,4,5 min. I dont get it!

In those 16 minutes, he has 0 points on 0-3 shooting, 1 rebound, 3 assists, 4 turnovers and 3 fouls.

 

[Slim45]

It's based off of your time on the court, not based off of your eye test/opinion. Whether he's playing 5 minutes or 30, doesn't matter. If he plays better, it'll go up. Personally, he remind me a ton of Clemmons. Really surprising first year, got all fans excited, then sophomore year was a battle. Came back to be a really solid player the last two years. Hoping Joe follows suit.
I clearly understand that Joe is a better defender than Bohannon, however, what pressure does Joe put on, when we play a zone defense most of the game. We have to play a zone, because our whole team leans towards being below average defenders (outside of Keegan). Whether it's Joe or Jordan, it doesn't matter, if Weiskamp, Luka, or CJ struggle stopping the drives as well. If we were playing man to man, and Jordan's guy kept scoring all the points while our other guys were shutting their opponents down, I'd understand the rationale, but that's not the case. To me, the small different in defense, isn't worth the large difference in offense.

I think what he was getting at is, joeT getting pulled after he does something wrong (TO most the time) and doesn’t get any more chances to do anything good to offset that, therefore driving down his PER. Idk how they figure it, but if you play 3-5mins and your only stat is a TO im guessing that doesn’t bode well for his PER. Maybe im looking at it wrong idk

 

[Jizzer]

So much of this thread is about his turnovers or poor shooting. Like most threads here posters are way too wrapped up in offense. I bet Bohannon’s defense has given up more points in those 336 minutes (or whatever number it was) than JT’s turnovers have.

You bet? LOL, this board is so desperate to have a PG that looks the part, rather than plays the part, they are willing to ignore every single stat that says otherwise. Everyone makes an excuse for Joe missing the FT against Minny that single handedly lost us the game. They make an excuse for his ridiculous turnover before halftime last night. He's not playing good, Ulis and Perkins are playing better. Come in and do something like Keegan, Pat, Ulis, or Perkins and you'll play more.

 

[Jizzer]

I think what he was getting at is, joeT getting pulled after he does something wrong (TO most the time) and doesn’t get any more chances to do anything good to offset that, therefore driving down his PER. Idk how they figure it, but if you play 3-5mins and your only stat is a TO im guessing that doesn’t bode well for his PER. Maybe im looking at it wrong idk

He's played double digit minutes in 13 of our 20 games, he's had plenty of time to improve his efficiency.

 

[Slim45]

In those 16 minutes, he has 0 points on 0-3 shooting, 1 rebound, 3 assists, 4 turnovers and 3 fouls.

I just looked at joe’s stats starting with UNC, looks like most games he gets over 10min his stats are pretty good. Also noticed starting at the NW game when he got hurt, his stats and minutes both took a pretty good dive. Maybe that injury is nagging more than we know.

 

[fivecardstud14]

You bet? LOL, this board is so desperate to have a PG that looks the part, rather than plays the part, they are willing to ignore every single stat that says otherwise. Everyone makes an excuse for Joe missing the FT against Minny that single handedly lost us the game. They make an excuse for his ridiculous turnover before halftime last night. He's not playing good, Ulis and Perkins are playing better. Come in and do something like Keegan, Pat, Ulis, or Perkins and you'll play more.

Funny stuff here. This guy clearly didn't watch Ulis last night. I know you are not objective at all & get confused on DRtg so I shouldn't think twice, yet here I am.

 

[e720718998]

Agree 100%. I put a lot of the blame on fran for his usage of joe. I understand being upset with turnovers, but how is a kid supposed to get comfortable and play confident when he gets yanked after his first mistake every game. I feel like joe could/should play a big part in any success we have come march, and fran is doing a big disservice to him and the team by not giving him minutes and getting his confidence up. Go back 3 games to msu, played a HUGE part in that win and ever since has rode the pine. Makes zero sense.

Perkins is going to be a better player now and in the future so he might as well get the minutes. Joe can still be a big part of the program but it's up to him.

 

[Slim45]

Perkins is going to be a better player now and in the future so he might as well get the minutes. Joe can still be a big part of the program but it's up to him.

Idk if i have seen enough to say that for sure. Regardless perkins is a wing, not a pg. They won’t/shouldn’t be competing for minutes.

 

[e720718998]

Idk if i have seen enough to say that for sure. Regardless perkins is a wing, not a pg. They won’t/shouldn’t be competing for minutes.

I think Perkins is more a combo guard as most of guard recruits are. So he will get the minutes where the are available and those are Joe's minute with good reason.

 

[ObeseMuffins]

Reminds me of Anthony Clemmons's sophmore slump. He got it togther his last two years. Don't transfer Joe!

 

[SB_SB]

We need JT playing if we want to make it far in the tournament. We need him and he needs to start making better decisions and slow down. When he has the ball he's so out of control that even our team doesn't know what to do. JT needs to follow the saying, "Don't mistake activity for productivity". Come on JT, we really need you.

 

[EpenesaEpenesa]

He's trying to play too fast. Him under control, settled in is more than quick enough. Needs to relax and just let things come to him. Maybe trying too hard a little bit.

 

[Jizzer]

Funny stuff here. This guy clearly didn't watch Ulis last night. I know you are not objective at all & get confused on DRtg so I shouldn't think twice, yet here I am.

Sweet, I've got my own personal dingleberry.

 

[Jizzer]

I just looked at joe’s stats starting with UNC, looks like most games he gets over 10min his stats are pretty good. Also noticed starting at the NW game when he got hurt, his stats and minutes both took a pretty good dive. Maybe that injury is nagging more than we know.

Could be, I think we are both hoping he gets back to form sooner than later. We will need him down the stretch.