I see Kevin Smith every time I watch him play.
Toussaint
- Thread starter iahawkeyes17
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BirdistheWord
HB Legend
Great analogy. He is a fantastic, strong, tough athlete, but not as natural of a basketball player, if that makes sense. Especially point guard. He is extremely raw, and with very limited minutes will be difficult to gain polish.
Agree with the above posters in that if we want to make a serious run, we are going to need him to play some solid minutes. He brings an element that we don't normally have on the court on D and O.
Fran was not happy with that turnover right before half and that might have sealed the deal for Joe last night.
Fran was not happy with that turnover right before half and that might have sealed the deal for Joe last night.
A
anon_qczsdwtnv6esw
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Seems to me, Fran looks past most things except turnovers. Players can get out rebounded all over the place, play lazy defense, jack up a few bad shots and thats all ok. But turnover the ball twice and you see the bench for a while. Lets recall Bohannon played 33 mins of a game he went 0-9 as a perfect example.
JT leads the team in TOs with 30!
I had to check to make sure. It's unreal.
JT 30 20x12.0 mins.
LG 29. 20x30.5 mins.
JB 29. 20x28.8 mins.
CM 17 20x22.7 mins.
This thread boils down to the posters who hate the last name McCaffery and reality.
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I think someone can like the McCafferys and still think Joe should play more. Turnovers are not the reason we lose games. We average 9.6/g and our opponents average over 12/g.
Our defense has been our biggest downfall and that is one of Joe’s strengths I think. Our starting lineup doesn’t need to give over a turnover to allow a wide open 3 or easy drive to the hoop/layup.
If you focus on one stat, Joe shouldn’t play but basketball is more than just turnovers. We had less turnovers/more points off turnovers than Illinois and Ohio State and still lost.
If you focus on rebounding, CJ has 20 all season. Should he be benched? Giving up an offensive rebound is as bad as a turnover (maybe worse). Clear answer is no, CJ is one of our best players.
It's not just the one stat though. He's a poor shooter, and his assists and rebounds are really low. There are times he makes great plays, but there are far too many where he drives and stops at the FT line with nobody to pass to. I wish he would maintain his dribble in those instances and dribble back out and reset.
A great comparison and texting a buddy after the game and we brought this up as well. Hopefully he sticks it out. Crossing my fingers he does. Supposedly he and Patrick are good friends and maybe that can be a factor into him staying and not leaving. I think like last year when we saw him with more extended playing time how valuable he can be. I just wish someone on Fran's staff would work better with him. Lot of great attributes with his speed, quickness and toughness being a NYC guy but they need to work on reigning some of that in where he isn't out of control going 100mph all the time.
Bingo. How many games this year have I seen Patrick come in play poor D and get abused on the boards and shoot poorly. But every game he's out there getting his 10-15 minutes a game no matter what.
I agree with your last point and actually do see where you are coming from in multiple responses you’ve made in this thread btw, but he does not have low assist numbers. Not a good rebounder for sure. Has struggled shooting though seems to do better the more he plays (see MSU).
He averages .19 assists per minute played (best on the team). By comparison JBO averages .16 assists per minute played and is our teams assist leader.
Joe has 46 assists on 241 minutes and JBO has 92 assists but on 573 minutes.
Last year as a freshman, with extensive minutes, he led the team in Assists/40minutes and steals/40. He shot a higher FG% and FT% than Connor, and had more Pts/40 than everybody but Garza, Weezy, and Kriener. Yes he turned the ball over at a higher rate than everybody else as well (substantially), but he isn’t a 5 minutes per game type of player.
What is happening this year is the direct result of a situation where Joe gets put into the game and Fran says “don’t screw up!”
I agree here. I do think one component of Joe’s issue right now is the quick hook and it’s become a chicken-or-egg thing - he gets yanked because he leads the team in TOs with such few minutes and he plays with added pressure trying to stay in. It would be nice if Iowa could run up a lead or if game circumstances (non-injury) were to force him into extended time, it could be a great confidence builder.
That turnover right before half was as much or more the passer’s fault as it was Joe’s. The passer led him right into the double team which Joe could not see coming.
He also led the team in TO/40 minutes and Fouls/40. He was 4th on the team in Pts/40, because he was tied with the 3rd most FGA for the season. With all that being said, I thought he played better last year than he has this year. I wasn't debating Connor vs Joe, as they aren't really competing for minutes. Connor vs Keegan though, Keegan is starting to win out in PT. That makes me very happy.
He does indeed, just hoping he can cut down on those TO's.
I acknowledged that the turnovers are still a problem, and 4.5 fouls per 40 over 15 minutes or whatever he should play means that he’s finishing a game with about two fouls - a byproduct of his aggressive defense which also results in steals. I didn’t think you were debating Joe vs Connor, I just used Connor to illustrate my point, as he was used as a primary ballhandler frequently last year and got nearly twice as many minutes as Toussaint. I believe with extended minutes, Joe can be a really valuable player for this team
Keegan’s emergence has been awesome, I agree
I think Joe can be really valuable too, I hope he slows down a bit and becomes the player we all thought he would become.
TOs lead to points, you can't spot the other team 4 pts with your play and not have other parts of your game offset it. I want JT to be awesome but I want the Team to win first not give out minutes to some fans favorite.
jbo on defense gives up points...and lots of them, far more than 4
Sorry, I had toWell that’s one of my points is how many points do other teams get off of Joe’s TOs vs how many points we give up on open 3s and easy layups when he isn’t in there because JBO or Connor struggle to guard quick/athletic guards in the B1G?
I don’t know the answer but based on eye test our starting 5 seem to give up way too many easy 3s and layups with poor defense and slow rotations. Although I thought they did have more intensity last night and they’ve shown when they put in the effort they can play D but it seems that our bench does it way more consistently and Joe is one of those players that puts in the effort.
Not only don't transfer but take the extra Covid year and he's got 3 years to prove his worth in the best league in the country...
I agree with this. Joe made a weak cut, but then it was compounded with a lazy pass into the defender. Ugly play....but still not a travel.
Bottom line: Iowa will not make a significant run in the tournament without Joe T. The defense of JBO absolutely kills the team. The rest of the team is constantly helping with a point guard driving right around him. Therefore, the other players are in constant scramble mode and that is what is causing wide open shot after wide open shot for opposing teams. JBO needs to play when he is making shots otherwise needs to sit. CMac is a liability on both offense and defense. He can’t shoot or drive to the basket. Defenders sagging off him cause is causing Garza fits. Garza is wearing down. I think JBo and Cmac both hustle on defense but they are too slow. With both of them playing at the same time there is no way Iowa can stop any good teams from scoring. Joe T should have been starting since game 1 of this season. I guarantee you he would be playing much better. Shame on Fran. Furthermore PMac should be playing over Cmac as well.
Make a good point about the starting 5. I thought this was a really good article last week after OSU game basically saying the same. How Iowa may need to play some guys like Perkins and Toussaint more with Bohannon and Connor instead of having these 2 on the court at same time. Get some D on the floor even if some of these lineups effect our offense it's our bad defense that is costing us games. Do I expect it to happen? That's a different story because the 2 games since it has not.
It's time for Iowa to give up firepower in exchange for prideful defenders
When the Hawkeyes held a 61-50 advantage with 14:29 to go, you were waiting for the Hawkeyes to go full throttle on them. Instead, quick three-pointers were forced and Ohio
247sports.com
kind of a silly argument when pt begets experience and numbers. This has more to do with jbo becoming more of a shooter vs pg. Connor is really the odd man out.
None of those guys attack. They are passers that have to work off screens. we are talking about two different games here.
What's funny is that everyone worries about the offensive end. Jordan B. may score 14 points but he gets blown by consistently putting everyone else in poor position.
Jordan can keep iowa in games/win games with his shooting but his defense will cause more L's than his shooting causes W's.
When Joe Toussaint finally realizes that speed and quickness is not the end all to playing this game and self control is more important, and learn to harness his skills, then you will see the player that all of you believe is within him....until then he will see more bench then floor.
Face it, until Jordan Bohannan has exhausted his eligibility at Iowa he is going to be the alpha dog and get most of the playing time at either point guard or off guard and after 4 years and numerous hero games and the all time 3 point specialist at Iowa he has eared that right whether you want him there or not. Yes, we would love to see Jordan 2 to 3 inches taller and as fast and quick as Ronnie Lester was but he is who he is and that's not going to change.
There is still plunty of games left for Joe T to contribute to more wins and ultimately leading Iowa deep into the NCAA tournament. Hope at some point the light will come on inside his head and he will be the special player we would all like to see running Iowa's offense.
Face it, until Jordan Bohannan has exhausted his eligibility at Iowa he is going to be the alpha dog and get most of the playing time at either point guard or off guard and after 4 years and numerous hero games and the all time 3 point specialist at Iowa he has eared that right whether you want him there or not. Yes, we would love to see Jordan 2 to 3 inches taller and as fast and quick as Ronnie Lester was but he is who he is and that's not going to change.
There is still plunty of games left for Joe T to contribute to more wins and ultimately leading Iowa deep into the NCAA tournament. Hope at some point the light will come on inside his head and he will be the special player we would all like to see running Iowa's offense.
This is a great point. Anyone else on the team probably would have committed a charge there. Joe T turned it over, but was quick enough to avoid a charge. I am a big Joe T. fan, he is an outstanding perimeter defender, and comes up with a lot of steals. A lot of people on here are calling for more minutes for Perkins and Ullis and though I am optimistic about their futures, their playing time shouldn't come at Joe T 's expense. Joe has already shown more ability to penetrate and create shots for others, or finish at the rim himself. As he gets more minutes and gets into a rhythm , his turnovers go down. We need Joe T out there to maximize our teams potential. Go Hawks !
I love Toussaint’s enthusiasm for the game, but he is simply just a plus 1/ minus 1 guy. For every creative dribble drive he turns over the ball. For every sparkling assist he makes a pointless foul. And most importantly he is a PG who can’t shoot from outside. To reiterate, I like the kid, and at times he is dazzling; but when he has the ball in his hands it is shaky at best. I think Perkins is the man going forward next year and that is fine with me.
I’m a Joe T fan as well. My wife on the other hand is not. I feel for a lot of us we want Joe to be so good is because he is a complete opposite of JBo! I’m still hopeful he puts his game altogether yet!
Well, to be fair, neither Perkins or Ulis have exactly been ringing the cash register offensively when they're on the floor. I've said this twice before....We still don't know whether either one of them has a reliable jump shot.
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IMO, the difference between joeT and ulis is that we have actually seen what joe is capable of. He has had some very good games for us, last yr w/ jbo out and this yr when given extended minutes. Ulis has played well when called on, but those have been limited minutes through the year. Yes joeT can get out of control and turn it over, but he can also do things nobody else on the team can, including defending. I said this earlier in this thread but I’ll say it again, getting his confidence up and playing well, will be instrumental in our success come march!
I think we all need to relax and step back. All we have to do is go back to the 1st MSU game just a short time ago and how well JT played in that game. Play well and get more PT, don't play well and sit on bench. Really how it should be. This is on JT. He's got to learn how to play more consistently under control. He's young, he's playing behind a bunch of upperclassmen. Give it time.
I am curious. Is Sapp still around? It would be great for him to have a conversation with JoeT. We have a deep backcourt with JoeT going forward, and he brings the combination of quickness and toughness that I don't see in our other guards, although I haven't seen enough of Ulis to be sure how quick or tough he is. Somehow JoeT needs to calm down and play under control in the first couple of minutes he comes in. Once he gets in the flow, he makes a lot more positive plays than turnovers.
I agree, but I think you also have to put some of it on fran. Idk if you can expect him to play well when its been made clear if he screws up he’s done for the game. I don’t think there’s many players that would perform too well under those circumstances. IMO Joe should be getting 10mpg regardless, Fran has made his role too inconsistent and has forced him to press, again JMO. I look at the MSU game and how he performed, it should have gotten him a longer leash the next game...but nope he got the hook early and played a total of 7min, in a game where we gave up 89pts and needed defense. Makes me scratch my head
I somewhat agree but this is not the case across the board. Many other players have had bad moments in games and they continue to get extensive minutes.
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