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Toussaint

Agree with above, I guess I look at it from Fran's current Psyche. Ideally he would have committed consistent time to JT and rode out the mistakes. We are now 3/4 deep in the season, Fran obviously has zero trust in JT. I'm just hoping he commits to one and let's them emerge whether it be JT or Ulis, this 5-10 min a game BS is bad for all of them.

IMO this is still a failure on Fran, he had to know going into this season we were going to need an athletic guard to emerge. The minutes he gives Connor has completely blocked that process from having a chance. We don't know anymore about these players than we did game 1 for the most part.
 
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I love his intensity
but his assist to turnover ratio might be a negative number
 
retrohawki said:
Joe T is the new Adam Woodbury. Looks the part but in all reality, hurts the team more than he helps.
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Besides being tall curious how Woodbury "looked" the part and he definitely helped the team more than he hurt. Just because he didn't score a ton doesn't mean he didn't help in other ways. Was a very good defender and rebounder. Fran always praised him for his leadership on the floor. Very vocal player. He was actually part of some of the only teams from Fran that played half way good D.
 
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hawkifann said:
This holds no water. Last year with JBo out, Connor was on the floor a ton and played more minutes at point than he has this year and had 4 assists per game with 0.9 turnovers per game while playing an average of 30 mpg.

Looking over the last 2 seasons, Iowa has played 51 games and Connor has had more than 2 turnovers exactly 1 time (4 this year in win over Purdue). He’s had 2 TOs 10 times. That means that in 40 of his 51 games, averaging over 25 mpg with a lot of those minutes at point, he’s had fewer than 2 TOs.

You can say a lot of things about Connor’s game as he has plenty of holes, but pointing to him as being overwhelmed by defenses or being a turnover machine isn’t one of them.
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Connor has given the ball away a hell of a lot more than that this year. He has the same habit as JBo with lazy passing that ends up with TOs far too often.
Yes, when Garza et al are cruising along its like a video game , pass it low, Garza catches make a move ot two and head back down the court with points.
But at.this point in the season teams are going through Garza foe steals, not called, going over Garza for tips, not called and body bumping with with 2 or more guys in the paint so he can't keep his feet under him or get a rebound.
You have to see this and adjust.
There is always another option.
 
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retrohawki said:
Woodbury played with 4 players who were 1st team all big ten and Mike Gessell, who was a damn good player. Woody kept that team from being great. Had Gabe had Woodys minutes, that team would have been special.
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Gabe was a solid player too, but Woodbury was one of the reasons that those teams were the best defensive teams Fran has had at Iowa. Much of the Hawks’ defensive success was attributed to his ability to communicate and lead defensive positioning, his man defense was fantastic, and he was a good rebounder. Offensively, he wasn’t much of a scorer, but was a really good passer and an excellent screener. He wasn’t the one holding those teams back. Mediocre offensive play from our guards and an inability to close out games was a greater factor
 
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iahawkeyes17 said:
Besides being tall curious how Woodbury "looked" the part and he definitely helped the team more than he hurt. Just because he didn't score a ton doesn't mean he didn't help in other ways. Was a very good defender and rebounder. Fran always praised him for his leadership on the floor. Very vocal player. He was actually part of some of the only teams from Fran that played half way good D.
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Correct. Was not a shot blocker but his ability to position and move his feet helped Iowa a lot on defense. Not a great player, but good. 7.6 points, 8.3 rebounds, shot 55% from the field and 70% from the line as as senior. In 25 minutes per game. Woodbury's career PER (Player Efficiency Rating) on College Basketball Reference is 14. Toussaint's is 12.6. And FYI, Connor is at 10 this year, which is highly unplayable for a player getting that many minutes.
 
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walleye hunter16 said:
Connor has given the ball away a hell of a lot more than that this year. He has the same habit as JBo with lazy passing that ends up with TOs far too often.
Yes, when Garza et al are cruising along its like a video game , pass it low, Garza catches make a move ot two and head back down the court with points.
But at.this point in the season teams are going through Garza foe steals, not called, going over Garza for tips, not called and body bumping with with 2 or more guys in the paint so he can't keep his feet under him or get a rebound.
You have to see this and adjust.
There is always another option.
Click to expand...

I cite his stats over 2 seasons (this season and last) and your comeback is that he’s turned it over way more this year? His numbers are largely the same.

Per 40 minutes:
Last season: 5.1 assists/40min, 1.1 TO/40min, ratio 4.6 assists/1 TO
This season: 7.8 assists/40min, 1.8 TO/40 min, ratio 4.3 assists/1 TO

Connor is what he is. He’s not going to shred a defense and he’s not going to take it to the hole very often. He’s not even really a PG most of the time when he’s out there, but to make claims that he has “given the ball away a hell of a lot more than that this year”. He actually has the same TO/game number as last year, but he’s playing fewer minutes, so the TO/40 go up.

It’s more than last year, but I have a hard time saying a guy averaging less than 2 turnovers per 40 minutes is turning it over “a hell of a lot more” this year.
 
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iahawkeyes17 said:
Bingo. How many games this year have I seen Patrick come in play poor D and get abused on the boards and shoot poorly. But every game he's out there getting his 10-15 minutes a game no matter what.
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I love PM’s athleticism and quicks, but he never has any idea what his assignment is in zone——pretty much always lost. He may even be worse than JoBo on D and that is saying something.
 
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Slim45 said:
I agree, but I think you also have to put some of it on fran. Idk if you can expect him to play well when its been made clear if he screws up he’s done for the game. I don’t think there’s many players that would perform too well under those circumstances. IMO Joe should be getting 10mpg regardless, Fran has made his role too inconsistent and has forced him to press, again JMO. I look at the MSU game and how he performed, it should have gotten him a longer leash the next game...but nope he got the hook early and played a total of 7min, in a game where we gave up 89pts and needed defense. Makes me scratch my head
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Slim you make way to much sense for this board! I love JoBo’s determination, CM’s intensity and PM’s athleticism and potential, but the truth be told most games the 3 of them normally end up giving up 10-15 more points than they account for. This isn’t just a point tabulation but taking defense, assists and turnovers into account. It’s hard for the rest of the team to make up. I saw Ronnie Lester play maybe 20 times and he was known for taking it to the hoop. For every 10 times he did the Hawks normally scored 5-7 times but there would be a couple turnovers or wild shots with the ball going the other way. But still aggressive PG play results in more easy buckets and more turnovers, but the Hawks are never going to be a viable contender with a PG who can’t get the ball within 25 feet of the basket.
 
hawkifann said:
I cite his stats over 2 seasons (this season and last) and your comeback is that he’s turned it over way more this year? His numbers are largely the same.

Per 40 minutes:
Last season: 5.1 assists/40min, 1.1 TO/40min, ratio 4.6 assists/1 TO
This season: 7.8 assists/40min, 1.8 TO/40 min, ratio 4.3 assists/1 TO

Connor is what he is. He’s not going to shred a defense and he’s not going to take it to the hole very often. He’s not even really a PG most of the time when he’s out there, but to make claims that he has “given the ball away a hell of a lot more than that this year”. He actually has the same TO/game number as last year, but he’s playing fewer minutes, so the TO/40 go up.

It’s more than last year, but I have a hard time saying a guy averaging less than 2 turnovers per 40 minutes is turning it over “a hell of a lot more” this year.
Click to expand...

And further, two of the four TOs vs Purdue were offensive fouls. Not exactly careless/lazy passes as suggested by Walleye
 
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retrohawki said:
Woodbury played with 4 players who were 1st team all big ten and Mike Gessell, who was a damn good player. Woody kept that team from being great. Had Gabe had Woodys minutes, that team would have been special.
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I was a huge Olesani fan, but Woody brought toughness and rebounding and some defense (using body) which were all things Gabe didnt do as well (more shot blocking on defensive end, but not bodying up very well)
 
EpenesaEpenesa said:
He's trying to play too fast. Him under control, settled in is more than quick enough. Needs to relax and just let things come to him. Maybe trying too hard a little bit.
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This is correct. And it is not just that he is turning it over it is how he is doing it. 100 mph all the time is just a little too much speed. Also throw in some boneheaded passes.
 
hawkifann said:
I cite his stats over 2 seasons (this season and last) and your comeback is that he’s turned it over way more this year? His numbers are largely the same.

Per 40 minutes:
Last season: 5.1 assists/40min, 1.1 TO/40min, ratio 4.6 assists/1 TO
This season: 7.8 assists/40min, 1.8 TO/40 min, ratio 4.3 assists/1 TO

Connor is what he is. He’s not going to shred a defense and he’s not going to take it to the hole very often. He’s not even really a PG most of the time when he’s out there, but to make claims that he has “given the ball away a hell of a lot more than that this year”. He actually has the same TO/game number as last year, but he’s playing fewer minutes, so the TO/40 go up.

It’s more than last year, but I have a hard time saying a guy averaging less than 2 turnovers per 40 minutes is turning it over “a hell of a lot more” this year.
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He gave the ball away at least 8 times on crappy, lazy passes against, OSU, IU and Rutgers.
Just because some dummy can't write them down on paper to be recorded doesn't mean he is not turning over the ball.
Look I like the guy and he is important to the team and recently is coming on offensively but he is too cocky with the ball too often this late in the season.
CMac did much better today and he got his entry passes in where they needed to be like he was earlier in the season.
 
There can be a fine line between aggressiveness and playing out of control. I think sometimes Joe T gets caught on the wrong side of that line. He'll get it under control with more playing time. I look forward to seeing how great he'll be in the next 2 years.
 
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walleye hunter16 said:
He gave the ball away at least 8 times on crappy, lazy passes against, OSU, IU and Rutgers.
Just because some dummy can't write them down on paper to be recorded doesn't mean he is not turning over the ball.
Look I like the guy and he is important to the team and recently is coming on offensively but he is too cocky with the ball too often this late in the season.
CMac did much better today and he got his entry passes in where they needed to be like he was earlier in the season.
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Lol whaaat? Idk how many times he turned it over in those games, but are you insinuating that the score table didn’t write all his TO’s down? 🤨
 
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Joe T’s TO rate has increased slightly year over year. Obviously you’d like to see improvement in that department as the player gains experience. Maybe it’s possible he simply is what he is. A spark plug when he’s playing well, a detriment when he’s not.
 
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Hawksfinal4 said:
I’d have looked stupid today since in the first minute or 2 I think I’d have pulled Connor. 2 bad defensive plays and lazy pass for a turnover. After that got some really good Connor.
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think what joe t might be able to do in games if he was given that sort of longer leash. Usually one bad play for joe and he gets pulled immediately
 
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walleye hunter16 said:
He gave the ball away at least 8 times on crappy, lazy passes against, OSU, IU and Rutgers.
Just because some dummy can't write them down on paper to be recorded doesn't mean he is not turning over the ball.
Look I like the guy and he is important to the team and recently is coming on offensively but he is too cocky with the ball too often this late in the season.
CMac did much better today and he got his entry passes in where they needed to be like he was earlier in the season.
Click to expand...

Just stop the nonsense, please. You’re looking quite foolish at this point. “He gave the ball away at least 8 times on crappy, lazy passes against, OSU, IU and Rutgers.” Weird given that Connor had two turnovers combined in those three games and ZERO at IU. But you say that he had no less than 8. Who do we believe?



Slim45 said:
Lol whaaat? Idk how many times he turned it over in those games, but are you insinuating that the score table didn’t write all his TO’s down? 🤨
Click to expand...

The correct answer is two. 1 vs OSU and 1 vs Rutgers. Scorekeeper (and the rest of us) missed the other six plus.
 
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He had a good game. Played more under control. Had some nice assist and good solid D as usual. But Fran just has a hard on for Bohannon. I just don’t see why he gets the vast majority of the minutes he sees. Not saying joe should get more but the gap is way to wide in my opinion.

like Today jbo didn’t play great and yet played lot in first and first 12 min of 2nd half. Or maybe the most ludicrous moment of the game when he chucked up a 25 ft shot on a 1 on 2 break. If there was a ever a time to yank a player out of a game that was it.
 
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Slim45 said:
Lol whaaat? Idk how many times he turned it over in those games, but are you insinuating that the score table didn’t write all his TO’s down? 🤨
Click to expand...
Nope,not insinuating I'm saying it loud and proud.
He and JBo have chucked lazy passes a ton of times for a TO and nothing shows up in the books.
And frankly the stats don't mean squat to me, careless TO's by a 5th yr PG and coaches son are just bad and part of the reason for the bulk of their losses.
Its great to brag about how great CMac's asst/TO ratio is but don't sugarcoat the many times he pretty much just threw it away.
Id also bet if you asked him directly about the bulk of them he would agree completely.
His performance today will make it easier for him to make those passes especially if he can keep shooting well.
 
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iahawks10 said:
Just stop the nonsense, please. You’re looking quite foolish at this point. “He gave the ball away at least 8 times on crappy, lazy passes against, OSU, IU and Rutgers.” Weird given that Connor had two turnovers combined in those three games and ZERO at IU. But you say that he had no less than 8. Who do we believe?





The correct answer is two. 1 vs OSU and 1 vs Rutgers. Scorekeeper (and the rest of us) missed the other six plus.
Click to expand...
What are you always going to believe?
What serves your purpose, thats what.
You're welcome to your opinion and so am I.
 
walleye hunter16 said:
What are you always going to believe?
What serves your purpose, thats what.
You're welcome to your opinion and so am I.
Click to expand...

You stick with your opinion and I’ll stick with the facts and form my opinion based of those. The scorekeeper is too “lazy” to keep accurate stats. 🤣
 
TheTruthTheWholeTruth said:
Joe T’s TO rate has increased slightly year over year. Obviously you’d like to see improvement in that department as the player gains experience. Maybe it’s possible he simply is what he is. A spark plug when he’s playing well, a detriment when he’s not.
Click to expand...

This is his second year with the Hawks.
 
walleye hunter16 said:
Nope,not insinuating I'm saying it loud and proud.
He and JBo have chucked lazy passes a ton of times for a TO and nothing shows up in the books.
And frankly the stats don't mean squat to me, careless TO's by a 5th yr PG and coaches son are just bad and part of the reason for the bulk of their losses.
Its great to brag about how great CMac's asst/TO ratio is but don't sugarcoat the many times he pretty much just threw it away.
Id also bet if you asked him directly about the bulk of them he would agree completely.
His performance today will make it easier for him to make those passes especially if he can keep shooting well.
Click to expand...
I thought you were saying JoeT had 8 to’s didn’t see you were talking cmac. Ill agree, he didn’t play well those games. Think ill still go with the official stats though regardless.
 
All we have is a little sophomore slump caused by reduced minutes. Joey T is trying too hard to do too much in a little time. Today, he got a steady dose of time and played well.

The starting point guard, for all his criticism and hostility around here, is leaving school as the career leader in assists, 3 point shooting and I think FT shooting. He's got a better than 3-1 career A/TO ratio. He's a big play legend. Guys like that don't sit-anywhere. Joey knew there would be a season where he'd sit behind Jordan, he just figured it was last season.

Joe T will almost certainly start next season. He's very talented.
 
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Slim45 said:
I thought you were saying JoeT had 8 to’s didn’t see you were talking cmac. Ill agree, he didn’t play well those games. Think ill still go with the official stats though regardless.
Click to expand...

No Joe T had 4 TOs in 16 minutes between those games. Connor “who didn’t play well” had 2 in 64 minutes. You guys are comical.
 
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