Trying really, really hard not to get my hopes up . . .

pjhawk

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To emphasize, this is an ongoing coup. All Republicans trying to ignore this or sweep it under the rug or part of the ongoing coup, they will try it again, either in 2024 or later if the party is till dominated by the current leadership rather than the outliers like Cheney and Kitzinger.

This is an ongoing red alarm fire when it comes to our Democracy. McConnell, McCarthy, all the current leaders of the party are part of it.
 

Tom Paris

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But is that remotely realistic? That several hundred unarmed morons would stand down the entire congress, law enforcement, the military? I don't see how that happens. And it didn't come close to happening. I mean, could it have delayed things for some days if there was some kind of hostage standpoint, for sure. But I don't understand how what happened January 6th ends up it, "whelp, Trump's the king now."

I mean, maybe that's what Trump thought and and he can be held responsible for trying it, but I don't think anyone reasonable thinks that was close to actually coming to pass. I mean the playbook for a hostage situation, seige, or occupation is pretty straightforward. It might be messy, and would be bloody, but it's not like nobody would have any idea what to do about these yahoos in the capitol so I guess we'll just have to live with it.

But if Georgia doesn't certify the election results? Or Pence won't certify the election? I think its way less clear how that gets dealt with.
It’s realistic in powerful Republicans’ brains. It sure as hell is in the brain of the wife of a SC justice. 2020 was practice.
 
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Chishawk1425

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To emphasize, this is an ongoing coup. All Republicans trying to ignore this or sweep it under the rug or part of the ongoing coup, they will try it again, either in 2024 or later if the party is till dominated by the current leadership rather than the outliers like Cheney and Kitzinger.

This is an ongoing red alarm fire when it comes to our Democracy. McConnell, McCarthy, all the current leaders of the party are part of it.
100%
 

Tom Paris

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I think this showed how strong our institutions are actually. The “most powerful man in the world” (President) was thwarted at every turn by those institutions.

I just hope Congress gets off their ass and passes the Electoral Count reform act and gets rid of the vagueness he tried to exploit
We are hanging by a thread! Why do you continue to refuse to see this?? The attack on democracy is going full throttle. Just look at the last week in the SC! Our freedoms are literally being attacked by radical Christians. Not to mention power hungry evil men and women like Elise Stefanik and Josh Hawley.
 
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globalhawk

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Tom Paris

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Depends how the Party of Traitors reacts to the Committee findings and the DOJ.
They will just move on to DeSantis, continue spreading propaganda and lies, and the base will eat it up. People like Cruz and Hawley want authoritarian rule with or without Trump. They will do everything possible to increase their hold on our government. The radical right will never give in. Guns and abortion. Hold those positions and the base will never leave.
 
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Tom Paris

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Except the left is also supporting a morally corrupt authoritarian figure. It's just a matter of degrees, and we have no idea of the depth of the corruption of 45 or 46. On the face of it, 45 is more corrupt, but someone or some group is handling 46, and we don't know who that is, and how they are doing it. The ideal should be supporting what's right, period. The idea should be prosecuting corruption, no matter what level of government, period.

There's no reason Trump shouldn't have been charged with inciting a riot months ago.
Both sides!!!!
 

Tom Paris

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Most "American's" have been "exposed" to 0 hours. They go to baseball and softball games, concerts, swimming in pools and lakes, golfing, and going to something called a Job, etc.

The large majority doesn't give a tinkers damn about a room full of Fing Lawyers and Politico's going blah, blah, blah........blah, blah, blah.........and furthermore blah, blah, blah.

Sorry to burst your hand-wringing/teeth-gnashing bubble, but it's absolutely true.
Because people like you prefer not to have your false reality blown up. Admitting you’re a dupe and have fallen for a conman is hard for people to do. You’re someone who actually needs to pay attention and reset your thinking.
 

binsfeldcyhawk2

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We are hanging by a thread! Why do you continue to refuse to see this?? The attack on democracy is going full throttle. Just look at the last week in the SC! Our freedoms are literally being attacked by radical Christians. Not to mention power hungry evil men and women like Elise Stefanik and Josh Hawley.
We're not "hanging by a thread" Tom...holy crap. Keep up the good fight though...
 
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Hawklad24

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The thing is, while January 6th was gross and embarrassing and shameful, I don't think it's really convincing for some to portray it like January 6 almost ended democracy. I don't think there's a scenario that anyone actually believes in which the rioters go in, kill Mike Pence, establish a fortified defense of the capitol, and Trump is president today and buffalo head guy is vice president. Unless we hear that Trump had the armed forces on his side, that's just a non starter to me. January 6 could have been a LOT worse, and it still wouldn't have ended democracy or installed Trump as monarch. Ultimately even if it got as bad as it could have, with members of congress slaughtered or something, that ultimately becomes a law enforcement operation, and one way or another, that's one thing we know how to bring a resolution to in this country.

My friend, I respect your view on it first of all, but I do think this is ignoring the ramifications of the killing of our elected lawmakers (which was actually alarmingly close to happening), and possibly our sitting Vice President had things continued to spiral.

That occurring would have been the single most destabilizing event in American history, outside of the civil war perhaps. Millions of Americans would almost certainly see this as the start of a new civil war. People fight for their democracy. Look up the Euromaidan Revolution in 2014, a timely example.

The truth is, we have no idea how it would have spiraled from the moment our elected officials were getting massacred en masse, but I don't think there can be any question now with the evidence unsurfaced, that Trump would have harnessed that chaos to remain in office.

edit: Just to add my opinion too, I think it would have certainly escalated to full on street violence across America, and guess who has the guns?
 
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torbee

HR King
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You are woefully naive and proven wrong often
I think Binsfeld is an eternal optimist, and I respect that.

He isn't a single-minded, bamboozled Trumpist either.

We disagree semi-frequently, but he at least uses reasoning and logic when taking his positions.
 
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Tom Paris

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We're not "hanging by a thread" Tom...holy crap. Keep up the good fight though...
Head in sand. You just refuse to figure this out. What the hell do you think is going to happen if the house goes red, combined with what Republican state legislatures are doing as far as making laws allowing them to install their own electors? They tried it, illegally in 2020. In 22 and 24 it will be legal. Non-Trumpian Republicans are saying this is happening. You think Liz Cheney is wrong about this?
 
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Tom Paris

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I think Binsfeld is an eternal optimist, and I respect that.

He isn't a single-minded, bamboozed Trumpist either.

We disagree semi-frequently, but he at least uses reasoning and logic when taking his positions.
Sometimes he does. Not on this, which is in front of his face.
 

binsfeldcyhawk2

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Head in sand. You just refuse to figure this out. What the hell do you think is going to happen if the house goes red, combined with what Republican state legislatures are doing as far as making laws allowing them to install their own electors? They tried it, illegally in 2020. In 22 and 24 it will be legal. Non-Trumpian Republicans are saying this is happening. You think Liz Cheney is wrong about this?
That’s why this bill needs to go through

 

Nole Lou

HR All-American
Apr 5, 2002
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My friend, I respect your view on it first of all, but I do think this is ignoring the ramifications of the killing of our elected lawmakers (which was actually alarmingly close to happening), and possibly our sitting Vice President had things continued to spiral.

That occurring would have been the single most destabilizing event in American history, outside of the civil war perhaps. Millions of Americans would almost certainly see this as the start of a new civil war. People fight for their democracy. Look up the Euromaidan Revolution in 2014, a timely example.

The truth is, we have no idea how it would have spiraled from the moment our elected officials were getting massacred en masse, but I don't think there can be any question now with the evidence unsurfaced, that Trump would have harnessed that chaos to remain in office.

edit: Just to add my opinion too, I think it would have certainly escalated to full on street violence across America, and guess who has the guns?

It was shameful as it was, and could have been incredibly more shameful, violent, and repulsive. And it could have resulted in murder. I only disagree with the idea that somehow Trump would have "harnessed that chaos to remain in office." You're welcome to that opinion, but that's and incredibly dim view of institutions like the police, the military, the states, courts, etc. I can definitely see it causing more chaos if it was more violent, but no, I don't see the police being "whelp, they're in there and they murdered congresspeople, they're the new government." And California being "well, they murdered our representatives, that's it."

Anyway, it's a semantic argument anyway...Jan 6 was a debacle, and Trump and his enablers should be held responsible. I have no problem with hearings, and prosecutions as warranted. But ultimately, I'm way more concerned with the things that aren't solved by a locked door, which were outlined in that original post, and just want to make sure those are not lost, either by Republicans hoping to sweep them under the rug, or Democrats focused on the more dramatic or salacious things on video.

Our Democracy isn't a building that can be breached or a single person that can be murdered. If that was the case than Russia could have defeated the U.S. with one nuke on the Capitol and "own the United States." It's processes and checks and balances that Trump tried to undermine in the courts and elector slates, etc. that are the more existential danger to me. I'm more concerned with where they held, why they held, what happens next if they don't hold in the future, what can be done about it.

I guess I feel way, way more confident that I know what would have eventually transpired if buffalo head guy killed Nancy Pelosi and Mike Pence than I do about what would have happened if several states had refused to certify election results, or Pence had refused to certify the election, etc.
 

globalhawk

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Dec 16, 2003
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It was shameful as it was, and could have been incredibly more shameful, violent, and repulsive. And it could have resulted in murder. I only disagree with the idea that somehow Trump would have "harnessed that chaos to remain in office." You're welcome to that opinion, but that's and incredibly dim view of institutions like the police, the military, the states, courts, etc. I can definitely see it causing more chaos if it was more violent, but no, I don't see the police being "whelp, they're in there and they murdered congresspeople, they're the new government." And California being "well, they murdered our representatives, that's it."

Anyway, it's a semantic argument anyway...Jan 6 was a debacle, and Trump and his enablers should be held responsible. I have no problem with hearings, and prosecutions as warranted. But ultimately, I'm way more concerned with the things that aren't solved by a locked door, which were outlined in that original post, and just want to make sure those are not lost, either by Republicans hoping to sweep them under the rug, or Democrats focused on the more dramatic or salacious things on video.

Our Democracy isn't a building that can be breached or a single person that can be murdered. If that was the case than Russia could have defeated the U.S. with one nuke on the Capitol and "own the United States." It's processes and checks and balances that Trump tried to undermine in the courts and elector slates, etc. that are the more existential danger to me. I'm more concerned with where they held, why they held, what happens next if they don't hold in the future, what can be done about it.

I guess I feel way, way more confident that I know what would have eventually transpired if buffalo head guy killed Nancy Pelosi and Mike Pence than I do about what would have happened if several states had refused to certify election results, or Pence had refused to certify the election, etc.
You are a good poster Nole Lou but we disagree on this. The violence that would have erupted throughout the country would have been awful if it was sent back to the states. Trump wanted anarchy.
 
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Nole Lou

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You are a good poster Nole Lou but we disagree on this. The violence that would have erupted throughout the church would have been awful if it was sent back to the states. Trump wanted anarchy.

I respect your thoughts, but we have the hindsight to know what happened. The January 6 invaders were roundly condemned by everyone who matters, and turned away with relative ease. I don't see a scenario where they behead Mike Pence and all of a sudden Mitch McConnell and the DC Police and the FBI are "eh, you're the captain now". There was no mass uprising in the streets in support of January 6th, I don't think that's because all Republicans were like, "well, let's see if they manage to kill Nancy Pelosi, and then I'll burn my neighbor's house down."

I can't change your mind if you really think it all almost slipped away that afternoon, I wish I could simply for your peace of mind that we're stronger than the perimeter security of any single building.
 

globalhawk

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Dec 16, 2003
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I respect your thoughts, but we have the hindsight to know what happened. The January 6 invaders were roundly condemned by everyone who matters, and turned away with relative ease. I don't see a scenario where they behead Mike Pence and all of a sudden Mitch McConnell and the DC Police and the FBI are "eh, you're the captain now". There was no mass uprising in the streets in support of January 6th, I don't think that's because all Republicans were like, "well, let's see if they manage to kill Nancy Pelosi, and then I'll burn my neighbor's house down."

I can't change your mind if you really think it all almost slipped away that afternoon, I wish I could simply for your peace of mind that we're stronger than the perimeter security of any single building.
No. I think the courts would have stepped in but the damage would have already been done.
 
Feb 9, 2013
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I respect your thoughts, but we have the hindsight to know what happened. The January 6 invaders were roundly condemned by everyone who matters, and turned away with relative ease. I don't see a scenario where they behead Mike Pence and all of a sudden Mitch McConnell and the DC Police and the FBI are "eh, you're the captain now". There was no mass uprising in the streets in support of January 6th, I don't think that's because all Republicans were like, "well, let's see if they manage to kill Nancy Pelosi, and then I'll burn my neighbor's house down."

I can't change your mind if you really think it all almost slipped away that afternoon, I wish I could simply for your peace of mind that we're stronger than the perimeter security of any single building.
I am not concerned that the violence would’ve led to a takeover. Violent acts are easily put down.
I believe the real threat was the attempt to delay the certification and somehow get Pence and Congress to create enough questions about the election results that Trump could say “I think I need to stay in power until we sort all this out.” Then see what happens from there.

I don’t think Trump had some master plan other than to try to delay everything until the 7th, then the 8th and so on.
 

globalhawk

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Dec 16, 2003
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I am not concerned that the violence would’ve led to a takeover. Violent acts are easily put down.
I believe the real threat was the attempt to delay the certification and somehow get Pence and Congress to create enough questions about the election results that Trump could say “I think I need to stay in power until we sort all this out.” Then see what happens from there.

I don’t think Trump had some master plan other than to try to delay everything until the 7th, then the 8th and so on.
Agreed. He was just trying to create mass confusion.
 

Nole Lou

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Apr 5, 2002
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I am not concerned that the violence would’ve led to a takeover. Violent acts are easily put down.
I believe the real threat was the attempt to delay the certification and somehow get Pence and Congress to create enough questions about the election results that Trump could say “I think I need to stay in power until we sort all this out.” Then see what happens from there.

I don’t think Trump had some master plan other than to try to delay everything until the 7th, then the 8th and so on.

Sure, I think that's the "best" that Trump could have hoped for. Buy a little more time.
 

tdstick

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We feel sorry for you. It is sad that you are detached from reality and bamboozled into supporting a morally corrupt authoritarian figure. But you aren’t alone - history is replete with examples. Here is hoping you get help someday.
Who is this corrupt authoritarian figure you speak of? I think you need to go back to Racial Bias training before you start making assumptions about me. History does have many examples of your current t reaction to my post. You are not alone in your biased assumption and attitude. Take a look in the mirror next time before you react.
 
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Nole Lou

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Also, he thought the new Supreme Court members owed him.

Good luck with that. Trump actually receives very little loyalty from anyone who can't personally reap a benefit from his association. Sitting supreme court justices are pretty low on that list.

But yes, that's actually good reason to codify things around the electoral vote count act and certifying electors to reduce that even being an exposure point.
 
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Feb 9, 2013
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Sure, but in
Good luck with that. Trump actually receives very little loyalty from anyone who can't personally reap a benefit from his association. Sitting supreme court justices are pretty low on that list.

But yes, that's actually good reason to codify things around the electoral vote count act and certifying electors to reduce that even being an exposure point.
Sure, but in his warped transactional mind they owed him a favor since he put them on the court.
 
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"attempted coup", "overturning election" - nice phrases for something that couldn't happen or wasn't attempted. I've not heard one piece on how anybody could or thought they could, get Trump declared the next president. It certainly could not have happened on January 6.
So . . . you seem to think it's OK to TRY to get away with those things - "attempted coup" and "overturning election"?

Most of us disagree. And I'm reasonably sure you would too if we were talking about something non-political.

Maybe I'm wrong but I'm guessing you are against and would punish attempted murder, attempted rape, attempted bank robbery, and so on.

And unless you simply haven't been paying attention, you surely agree that some people in high and low positions were, in fact, attempting to overturn the election results.

So how is it that you are OK with this?

I see no other answer but that you, personally, wanted the election overturned. You were fine - maybe even thrilled - with this attempted coup. And now you are trying to sweep it under the rug by playing dumb about how close it came.
 
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binsfeldcyhawk2

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I think Binsfeld is an eternal optimist, and I respect that.

He isn't a single-minded, bamboozed Trumpist either.

We disagree semi-frequently, but he at least uses reasoning and logic when taking his positions.
Wouldn't say I'm an optimist.....I'm a Hawk fan. It's been beat out of me...

But thanks :)
 
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Hawklad24

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Aug 6, 2021
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There was no mass uprising in the streets in support of January 6th, I don't think that's because all Republicans were like, "well, let's see if they manage to kill Nancy Pelosi, and then I'll burn my neighbor's house down."


The occupying of the capital was a clown show, and only because it didn't escalate any further.

When I say violence in the streets, I am talking about the inevitable protests breaking out into violence. Not the clueless Trump supporters at home who wanted to bury their heads in the sand.

You thought George Floyd riots were bad? That was over the killing of 1 innocent man no one had ever heard of. This would be perceived as the killing of freedom for hundreds of millions. You can't CTR-Z the organized murder of our elected officials.

Mix in a newly empowered vocal minority of MAGA psychos with huge stockpiles of guns. Throw in foreign actors (Putin, Xi) doing everything they can to sow chaos with information and cyber warfare.

In retrospect from what I've learned anyways, it was a FAR more sinister attempt than it ever seemed in the moment.
 

Bohawk

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I consider myself to be a moderate Republican and I don't want Trump anywhere near the White House again. He is not the Republican Party regardless of what anyone says and he's not good for this country. I feel the same way about Joe Biden...he's not good for this country. I think Desantis stands a great chance of being elected in the next go-around because D's will lack passion for whomever they put up there. Trump changes everything and the D's will come out in full force. They'd elect a block of cheese before they'd let Trump in office again...which is kind of what we're dealing with now.