Absolutely. It provides some perspective. Both that there are in fact some issues, and that overall the program was painted with too broad a brush.....
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True enough. As I posted when this first started, I think it was just the perfect storm. The Floyd killing, the BLM movement, people being angry and wanting a voice, NOW. I think that if J Daniels stepped back now, he might have handled things a little differently.
My understanding as I was listening was that this was something the black players talked about and I do believe James said he talked to KF. I also thought James said they had a zoom call with just former black players where they voiced their concern and described incidents which then prompted James to make the tweet.
Could be wrong as I'm also "working" and listening at the same time.
I didn’t come away from the podcast thinking James would do anything differently. I came away from the podcast with the impression that while James and KF have talked about things in the recent past KF May not have fully understood the depth of issue without a number of former players speaking out the way they did.
It may actually be in KF's favor that they all went public first. This has allowed KF, and the rest of the staff, to basically play the plausible deniability card ... and lean on the PR firm(s) to coach them along the way. At least this is how it has unfolded so far.
If they go to KF first and he does almost nothing about it. Epic poop storm?
It was an outstanding podcast. I have a much better perspective on how the black players feel and the challenges they face. Lomax did an outstanding job explaining the culture shock for some players. Doyle was running a program in a disciplined, military style that came off as insensitive to black players. You can see why given all of the different backgrounds guys are coming from. He ran a tight ship and if you couldn’t hack it the notion was move on. From a pure S&C only part he did a great job. From a total player relationship standpoint he got an F. The one style fits all players is problematic with today’s players and that’s where he failed. Let’s keep in mind he was one of the highest paid S&C guys in the nation so you have to do better than that.
The challenge is how do they continue to develop hard nosed, tough minded players but improve the player relations aspect and be more inclusive. They are working on it. That demanding vs demeaning.
The challenge is how do they continue to develop hard nosed, tough minded players but improve the player relations aspect and be more inclusive. They are working on it. That demanding vs demeaning.
"You" don't just go ahead and assume the head coach will do nothing if you bring it to his attention first.
You bring it to his attention first and give him the option of properly addressing it or ignoring it.
I don’t get the sense KF is worried about the perception of people outside the program as much as he is with those inside it. The bottom line was KF’s #2 guy, a guy he had been with for 21 years was running the S&C program in a way that made players of color feel uncomfortable. I don’t in anyway think that was what KF was intending or would have supported that approach and due to his relationship with Chris it was bound to affect him deeply.
Last night I listened to the podcast #124 where they talked about who should be on the list for the Head S&C job to replace Doyle.
I agree. I guess my point is don't go there until the player shows they need it. Because the other way to interpret that is they are giving the player special or different treatment from the other players even though it's negative. Everyone that's coming in is all in the same place until they demonstrate they need extra attention. I get it though, especially with social media, I'm sure these highly sought after recruits have expectations for special treatment.
that comment about 'act(ing) white' is the biggest cop out I have ever heard... its not 'acting white' to speak intelligibly, its acting like an contributing member of society. There was a reason his dad changed his tone, he wanted to keep his job. see how far you get in the workplace talking, dressing and acting otherwise. you have to grow up sometime, college is a good place to do it.
and if they're pitching a fit over no earrings in the weight room… then that's pretty weak sauce.
I played college football and half the team was black so I do understand some of these issues.
In regards to his dads speech, i do see it another way as well as his. The black players on my college team ran off 3 of their black teammates because they acted/talked white. The way they treated those guys was viscous. The only black player that “acted” white that they didn’t run off was our 225lb tailbacknthat went to military school and would have kicked anyone’s ass. They were afraid of him.
Many black players would speak the way I was used to speaking growing up if you were in a one on one conversation but their speaking manner changed if there were other black players there.
I get that and I get that white culture needs to reflect/change some things. But. There also needs to be some reflection within the black community as well.
It’s called ‘code switching’, and believe it or not, almost everyone subconsciously does it at least a little bit. Heck, I’m a white guy from a disciplined small town Iowa family, and I speak much differently at work than I do socially. I doubt James was using this as some excuse, just pointing out that a lot of black men in his father’s generation feel like they can’t bring their whole self to work. Similar to how he couldn’t bring his whole self to the football program. And that’s an issue, whether you personally like it or not.
This simply goes with what I have been trying to say all along - being insensitive, inappropriate, and maybe unaware does not make you a racist. Having a set of rules and standards for all to live by may again be insensitive - not racist! A culture that is accepting to all, yet has standards applied to all, is what is hoped for. You will always have some people who say they are treated differently than others and it does not have to be race based.
Best Hawkeye podcast out there. These guys do a great job. I don’t mind the bro stories... reminds us there are people behind the helmet.
except that many black players were given negative scores on their draft rankings before teams were chosen. And none of the team captains were black. And at least one year, there were 17 white players chosen before the first black player was drafted. But yeah, it probably had nothing to do with black vs. white.
I thought the guys were very clear that they knew how connected KF and Doyle were both personally and professionally. It makes a lot of sense that no one gave KF all the specific incidents before now but rather tried to mention there were issues. It makes me appreciate KF even more because personally, it had to be horrible to have your right hand man and best friend leave what you two built together. I thought it was good that both James and Jordan thought KF was the right person to get things right.
The Iowa coaches control exactly none of those.
NFL teams and analysts give those grades.
Team captains are voted on by the team.
Team drafts are controlled by players themselves (and I can say from experience that weight room performance, GPA, etc. are ALL factors in team draft positioning, since they earn you points).
If anything, KF noticed the trend with the last one before anyone came to him, and reached out to see if he could help.
Intelligible to whom? AAVE is perfectly intelligible to other AAVE speakers and anyone else familiar. And it has a grammar, vocabulary and syntax just as clear, nuanced and communicative as any other English dialect. It's only deemed lesser because most speakers are Black and/or poor. So, if it wasn't acceptable, yes, that's racial bias.
That's the problem he is discussing. Black people should not have to adopt white culture to advance in their careers.
I thought this was pretty clear during the interview. Not sure how someone could come away with something different. If someone wants to argue that certain aspects of the point system may be not as fair for certain individuals/groups, that's something that might be worth a discussion.
They also made it clear why the 17 players first chosen happened to be white, they were going by those with the highest scores at the time, or scores without any knocks on them. The goal was to finish with the highest point total, so naturally you'd choose from higher up on the point board. They clearly said that while going through the process, it started to feel a little awkward and asked Daniels specifically if they were in the wrong for doing so.
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Anyone who speaks English? If a decent portion of the American population has trouble understanding you and you expect to be hired and communicate with customers and the public, it could be a problem. How dare our coaches put these kind of oppressive expectations on our poor players....... Oh wait, I'm guessing their evil and possibly racist teachers might have the same expectations as well...... or maybe these coaches and teachers aren't racists and just want to prepare kids for the real world so that they can get a job and thrive in case the football thing falls through. Speaking so that everyone can understand you is important in the business world. Like it or not, that probably isn't going to change.
I agree with that approach. It's what I would do.
But do we know if they didn't try going to KF or the staff?
Most recent On Iowa pod interviewed Kelton Copeland ... they basically asked him this. He first said, "there is always grumbling." But it seemed like a pretty whitewashed answer overall.
Funny how when you dig just a little bit deeper into a situation objective facts tend to come out that trump emotion. Wish this was just a bit more commonplace.
Yeah sorry, but based off your posts here during all of this I'm just going to have to disagree with you on the topic in general. You and a few posters here appear to think everything was on the up and up and all of this was BS. You don't get 30-40 guys, many still respected within the program telling you that you have a problem if you don't.
While I don't think there was a blatant racism problem with the football team, there is almost undeniably a problem of perceived racial disparity and a few comments made by a coach/coaches that are unacceptable no matter what context they were said in. I'm glad over the last few years the program has changed some things to make black players feel more welcome and will continue to build on that.
Sorry.
We should be able to understand a slightly different dialect of our own language that is spoken by a sizable minority of people in our own cities. If not, I'd say we're too closed off and not culturally fluent or open, at best. But honestly, I don't buy that. I think people do understand (or could) and use hide behind pretending to not. I really think people just want to force Black people to adopt their culture, which they wrongly assume to be superior.
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Perhaps you should take your crusade up with the education system then. You could lobby to have all that horribly oppressive grammar, syntax, and spelling taken out of the public education system. No longer would be people be judged on whether they can speak proper English! I mean, clearly the education system must be trying to force everyone to adapt to white culture, right?
Can you change your profile so I can put you on ignore? Your comments suck.
Best regards.
No, but you can choose to skip my comments any time you see my name or avatar. Life is hard. Glad I could help.
If you need help with any more of life's tricky problems, just let me know.
Proper English? So, you are calling other dialects improper? And, as someone with an MA who did just fine in our educational system, yes. Our educational system too often reinforces dominant social norms and heirarchies instead of challenging them. I absolutely advocate for reform of all sorts of things in our educational system including allowing students tonspeak whatever dialect or language they prefer.
That does not mean we don't teach the grammar, vocabulary and syntax of the dominant language (sorry to kill your straw man). It means we should also teach other grammars and syntax, in a perfect world. In an imperfect world, we should stop giving kids shit for speaking in other dialects.
I think you are seeing discrimination where likely it was not present. I've spent 20 years in the business world and have worked many different jobs. Employers are always seeking candidates who can clearly communicate without using slang, jargon or colloquialisms. We all know KF conducts the program as a business, and thus expects players to communicate in a manner that reflects a businesslike atmosphere. If a player is forced to communicate in a manner that reflects professional business communication, the more likely that said player will form a habit of communicating in a professional manner when it comes time for that player to pursue employment. I don't think it is asking too much for players to use business professional language when communicating with coaches or in team meetings. Players should be allowed to use whichever language they prefer when speaking to each other when not in a meeting setting as long as that language is not offensive pr degrading to others who might be in earshot. There's nothing racial about requiring players to use business professional language. It's pretty universal and recognized by almost every culture that has dealings in the business world.
The business world very much requires people to adopt white, middle-class culture in the workplace. It's extremely racist and classist. We live in an extremely racist and classist society.
And "clear communication" generally means "clear to middle class or rich white people." And "professional" generally means "conforms to middle-class, white cultural norms."
Why else do people wear suits instead of robes in formal settings, for example? Why else do you think politics are off limits? Why else are people expected to keep a level voice at all times? Why are white hairstyles seen as professional while braids and dreadlocks are not? Why is blue jean worse than khaki? It goes and on. It's all middle-class, white culture.
EDIT: I'm not saying any of this is necessarily intentional at the individual level. But our social norms are adapted to keep powerful people in power at others' expense. They are designed to keep things exclusive - to exclude people who are not white, who are poor, etc. And, yes, people can learn to comply with these expectations in exchange for social mobility (as I have). At an individual level, that's probably a good call. But at a social level, it doesn't have to be like this. We don't have to make people alienate themselves from their cultures to gain economic security.
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The business world includes Asia, The Middle East and Africa. It's multi-racial and multi-cultural. As for middle class, every first world society and even some third world societies make up the business world. Your argument falls flat.
As for clothing and hair it depends on the business and where that business interacts in it's dealing and I can tell you dress code and attire are different from business to business. I've had jobs where jeans and t-shirts are fine and others where khakis and polos are required. Universities tend to adapt dress codes that are universal for all athletes and most colleges and universities lean towards more formal attire.
Internationally, who do you think dictated the current status quo? Elites in other countries are often educated at US or European schools, or local private schools based on European models. They trade with powerful American and European companies. They have assimilated to that, to varying degrees, and have adapted their own versions of that.
It's not all European and American. Asia and The Middle East have had tons of influence in adopting these models. Asia and The Middle East were just as responsible for colonization as Europe and America, perhaps somewhat more influential as Asia and The Middle East held great empires long before the rise of Europe. Those living in modern day Europe were forced to assimilate to the Persians, Mongols, and other like cultures like before Europe or America produced nations that assimilited into Europe and America.
I literally have a Master's degree in history and my field is the Middle East and East Africa, focused especially on SE Arabia and particularly on Oman as an empire that encompassed SE Arabia and East Africa. More broadly, I looked at the Indian Ocean economy on the 19th and early 20th centuries. I wrote my undergraduate thesis on the UAE and wrote my Master's thesis on UAE and Oman.
I know all about Asian and African empires. It's not the same thing and it has not had a strong influence on the current corporate business culture or economic structure internationally.
Then I guess you’re disagreeing with yourself. Perceived does not mean factual. At some point understand that maybe the coaches were preparing everyone for real life outside of “the hood”. If you want people to excel in life start holding everyone to standards. Otherwise your lot in life is set. Funny how many of the accusations have been refuted - but you already know that. And I’m sure every time you’ve treated someone different it’s been because of a certain bias? It’s just not always about race.
Not assuming the players are from the hood would be a good start. JFC.
And SOME weren’t? Of course they aren’t all. JFC yourself. The point was the vast majority of athletes don’t make money playing sports. If they aren’t prepared for the real world, like it or not, there’s a pretty good chance they’re going to fail. What job do you work at where there aren’t specific expectations for your grammar and appearance? Or is this do as I say not as I do?
