The illusion of choice does not = free will.
Two Different Views Of Human Life
- Thread starter LuteHawk
- Start date
This is a conundrum that has occupied philisophical thought for centuries. Your claim that "it isn't difficult" shows just how simplistic your thought processes on this are. The simple fact is you can't have a creator who knows every single choice you're going to make - CREATED you to make those choices - and have free will. They are mutually exclusive. Demonstrate otherwise rather than simply claiming that "it isn't difficult".
Now this makes for an interesting discussion, the dynamic of choice in connection to free will AFTER the Biblical account of mankind's fall. The Biblical perspective is that man is born hopelessly and incorrigibly with a sinful nature. Paul speaks to this when he laments doing wrong despite having the desire to do right. Clearly, that speaks to "free will" being corrupted, despite there being a theoretical freedom of choice.
Where the cognitive processes of choice become overtaken by an indomitable will to do wrong is anyone's guess, but we do know defense lawyers have made a lot of money purposely and perhaps capriciously blurring those lines, but that's not here nor there.
But you're absolutely right. That is a philosophical question that will likely never be answered. However, that isn't germane to the original debate about whether God can be omniscient while still allowing human beings the power of choice and free will. Your opinion is obviously no. My personal answer is I don't know and frankly don't care. However, if we are arguing in the context of what the Bible is saying, the English translation points rather unambiguously to Adam and Eve having free will because sin and corruption had yet to be introduced into the world. In that context, it is a rather simple concept, regardless of merit or believability.
The interesting part of the Biblical account is the dialogue God has with Adam and Eve after the fact, as God questions them in how they were aware of their nakedness. In that dialogue, we are left to wonder if God is posing a rhetorical question or if he is actually interrogating Adam and Eve, which then brings into question the author's intent. I say that because it presents the duality of the Judeo-Christian God. There is the omnipotent, omniscient God who is Creator of the known universe, and then there is the merciful, loving, but just God who wants to be Father to man. To those who believe in the Judeo-Christian God, the duality can exist without contradiction because it is not inconceivable to believers for a divine being to exist outside of time, space, and matter while also having a relationship with His creation in mankind's present reality. Since language has its obvious limitations, conveying that in writing is impossible. The same as it is impossible for human intellect to ever grasp it.
I'm okay with that.
God is both a just God and a loving God.
As a just God he demands that the 10
commandments are to be obeyed by us.
Yet as sinners we cannot obey them at
all times. We sin against them in thought,
word and deed.
As a loving God he sent his Son, Jesus
Christ to die on the cross so that our sins
could be forgiven by someone who was
holy and perfect. We are saved by God's
grace through faith in Jesus Christ.
As a just God he demands that the 10
commandments are to be obeyed by us.
Yet as sinners we cannot obey them at
all times. We sin against them in thought,
word and deed.
As a loving God he sent his Son, Jesus
Christ to die on the cross so that our sins
could be forgiven by someone who was
holy and perfect. We are saved by God's
grace through faith in Jesus Christ.
Why does God allow children to have disease and die? Doesn't he love them? And their parents?
Well, of course the argument is about what the Bible claims but it applies to any similar claim. What the Bible says on this is irrelevant. Presenting a concept simply doesn't mean that concept has any kind of viability. That's the whole point.
A&E are created by God. This God knows absolutely every single choice they will ever make before they are created. They make the choice they were created to make. At no point in that narrative does the possibility for free will exist. That the Bible "points rather unambiguously to A&E having free will" is meaningless. Saying it's so and it being so are two different things. The dodge is this claim that time isn't linear to God - God exists "outside of time" - whatever that means. It's irrelevant given that A&E don't exist outside of time. In the time that they had, their choices were set in stone. Or God was truly not sure which choice they would make...so, not omniscient.
If God knows beforehand that a person is going to do X, how could that person have the free will to do Y?
The short answer is nobody knows.
The Bible does say the rain falls on both the just and the unjust. We are told Job suffered because he was righteous and God gave Satan permission to f*** with him.
In short, the Bible basically agrees with the atheists: Shit happens.
You are asking a question no human being can understand. It is completely inconceivable to the natural mind. In terms of the basic premise of the argument, I'm not sure why having forehand knowledge of the choice someone is going to make means that person had been deprived of a choice.
In all honesty, this is not a subject I've invested a lot of thought in because as I stated earlier I'm pretty indifferent. Also, there are conflicting theories in Christian theology on predestination, as I believe it's John Calvin who proffered the belief that it was predetermined before the world was set in motion who would be saved and who would be condemned. If true, then I would be in agreement that God is a sadistic asshole.
Thankfully, I don't believe that.
I agree with the first and third sentence. The part that I marked is what bothers me. God is presented as being loving and just. But giving Satan permission to f*** with someone seems to be evil and not loving. I'm really searching for how this is worked out. Especially in the case of children.
Again, I fully understand the argument you are making. To what extent God is omniscient is anyone's guess as it relates to free will.
I'm not very dogmatic on the issue because to know would mean I'm above the capabilities of a human being. If you're asking my personal view, I don't know. And the reason I don't know is because the mind of God is infinitely greater than my own.
What I've presented to you is the Biblical point of view as I understand it. I am in disagreement that foreknowledge of what a person chooses to do means that person has been deprived of a legitimate choice. The argument you are making regarding God creating human beings and therefore having ownership of what a person does is not without merit, but I would submit to you that is one of many fascinating differences between a human being God created and say a man-made computer.
Oh, and God existing outside of time, space, and matter is very relevant.
Again, let me preface with I don't know.
My own belief, and what the Bible seems to support, is that mankind was once given perfection. We chose to know what exists beyond the matrix of perfection, because mankind is naturally curious. Thus, we are now immersed in a world of polarity or binary opposites, such as hate/love, life/death, health/sickness, truth/falsehoods, etc. To me, that is what the story of the Garden of Eden represents. We chose to live in a f***d up world.
In terms of the story of Job, what is often missed in that story is God was breaking Job of pride, as God teaches him that he wasn't there when God created the known universe so Job had no business trying to conclude why anything happens that does. It just does, oftentimes for reasons we will never understand.
In short, I don't know why some children die. What I do know is that the well-intended people who like to tell grieving parents that "God must have needed another little angel in heaven" are full of shit. And are not to be listened to.
With that said, I am of the belief that those children who have died are indeed immersed in a higher level of consciousness that is free of sickness, pain, and suffering, and are therefore in the presence of Almighty God for all of eternity. When I consider my own mortal life on Earth is less than a blink of the eye in the grand scheme of things, it puts a lot in perspective for me.
God's ultimate punishment for the sin of
Adam and Eve was that they would die.
Sin is the reason we have feeble bodies
which are doomed to die. Cancer, and
other diseases are part of the process of
having a mortal body.
The Good News: Jesus Christ conquered
death on Easter morning with His resurrection
from the grave. All those who believe in Him
will also rise from the grave and spend eternity
with Him in Heaven.
Adam and Eve was that they would die.
Sin is the reason we have feeble bodies
which are doomed to die. Cancer, and
other diseases are part of the process of
having a mortal body.
The Good News: Jesus Christ conquered
death on Easter morning with His resurrection
from the grave. All those who believe in Him
will also rise from the grave and spend eternity
with Him in Heaven.
A secular culture is man-centered and
looks to science and technology for the
answers to life's questions. The focus
is on the here and now and the one with
the most toys wins. There is a certain
emptiness that sees the cemetery as the
end of existence.
looks to science and technology for the
answers to life's questions. The focus
is on the here and now and the one with
the most toys wins. There is a certain
emptiness that sees the cemetery as the
end of existence.
Why do you have such strong antagonistic views toward Christianity? I'm genuinely curious.
Or do you just get your jollies off of being smug and pugnacious toward the elderly who take comfort in their belief?
I ask because it seems you have quite the chubbed up pecker to dis Lute. It's borderline obsessive with you. Why?
Interesting. Let's go to the tape. Here's Lute's original claim:
He could have said up and down are the same thing. It's an obvious contradiction. I responded:
You felt the need to jump in:
After pages of back and forth, your final argument to support your claim is, apparently, you have no idea how it might be true but the Bible says so, therefore, it's true.
The very first lesson I give my kids every year on the very first day is to question even that which they see with their own eyes. Their own prior experiences and biases will make them see things that aren't there. And I prove it to them. And I tell them they better question EVERYTHING...including me.
Those who dogmatically present obvious contradictions as Unquestioned Truth should be called on to prove their claims. You can believe any damn fool thing you like...but don't try to tell me your Truth and expect me to simply nod. Lute's God created humans to do exactly that which they were created to do. They had no other option. Then that God got pissed off when they actually did it.
That's nonsense. We don't get cancer because some poor kids ate fruit they were supposed to leave alone. And don't try to hide your foolishness behind the curtain of religion.
God is a terrible religion. Do you have a moment to talk about Climate Change?
That's a common denominator with many religious people... many of them literally only know what's in the Bible by what they're told is in there. It's a lot like 500-2000 years ago. Only the clergy were literate. The masses heard what was told to them.
Similar threads
