Two new studies on Covid origin

srams21

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Unproven conspiracy theory? Hardly. There's plenty of email evidence of coercion by Fauci and Collins to try and suppress the lab leak theory. They enlisted Peter Daszak to stomp the lab leak theory. This was just after Kristian Andersen's email to Fauci about an unexplained sequence that "looks engineered".

There are over 3000 pages of Fauci e-mails on this topic. Many of those e-mails are attempts to repress information coming from researchers outside the NIAID.

You don't have to believe me though. I didn't create the emails.
When you look for a conspiracy, everything starts to be evidence. Are you a 9/11 truther as well?

Look, to be clear, I'm not saying the "lab leak theory" isn't possible. It certainly is but what you posted above isn't exactly evidence of that. There are some questions but no direct evidence that shows it.
 
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NorthDSMHawk

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Seems a pointless topic to debate on. Even if the scientists could establish where it came from with with certainty, I'm not sure they can do much to prevent it from happening again.

China's gonna do what china wants to do. And it's not like we are going to go to war with them over lab safety issues or meat market safety issues.
I'd think if we're trying to decide what our research money should go towards, or not go towards (gain of function research/EcoHealth), it might be worth debating.

https://www.science.org/content/art...ment-wuhan-created-bat-virus-made-mice-sicker
 

win4jj

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In the mean time the virus says, “hold my beer, and watch these silly humans try to figure it out.”
 

Finance85

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When you look for a conspiracy, everything starts to be evidence. Are you a 9/11 truther as well?

Look, to be clear, I'm not saying the "lab leak theory" isn't possible. It certainly is but what you posted above isn't exactly evidence of that. There are some questions but no direct evidence that shows it.
There's actually more evidence of lab leak. We know that gain of function research was taking place, and that research would explain the end result. There's no evidence of zoonotic transfer, only theory.

We know that Fauci tried to quash discussion of the lab leak theory. There are many e-mails that show this. Nobody has to stretch anything to support that position. Study 2 in this thread had to come up with a second theory to support the missing genetic sequence.
 
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alaskanseminole

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Oct 20, 2002
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So….you got nothing…
No. I think you misunderstood my post's intent. I should have worded it, "I wonder, what do classified U.S. Intelligence reports say?" I was working as an AF Civilian at NSA when it [COVID] hit and read a few heavily redacted reports (obviously not at liberty to disclose), but there really wasn't much out there at the time. I'm just curious what's being reported now. Love my new career, but sometimes I do miss working in that environment.

I guess we'll have to rely on some dipstick politician with access to leak the info.
 

IaHawk44

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Feb 20, 2006
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The former CDC Director would disagree.

The fact that earliest infections are clustered around the Wuhan Market is laughable. Aren't those early infections also clustered around the Wuhan lab? The Lab is 8 miles from the wet market. Where do Wuhan Lab workers shop? First Study Funding -
Funding: This project has been funded in whole or in part with Federal funds from the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, National Institutes of Health, Department of Health and Human Services, under Contract No. 75N93021C00015 (MW). JIL acknowledges support from the NIH (5T32AI007244-38). SAG acknowledges support from the NIH (F32AI152341). JEP acknowledges support from the NIH (T15LM011271). JOW acknowledges support from NIH (AI135992 and AI136056). DLR acknowledges support of the Medical Research Council (MC_UU_12014/12) and the Wellcome Trust (220977/Z/20/Z). MAS, PL and AR acknowledge the support of the Wellcome Trust (Collaborators Award 206298/Z/17/Z – ARTIC network), the European Research Council (grant agreement no. 725422 – ReservoirDOCS) and NIH grant R01AI153044. ALR is supported by the Canadian Institutes of Health Research as part of the Coronavirus Variants Rapid Response Network (CoVaRR-Net; CIHR FRN#175622) and acknowledges that VIDO receives operational funding from the Canada Foundation for Innovation – Major Science Initiatives Fund and from the Government of Saskatchewan through Innovation Saskatchewan and the Ministry of Agriculture. MK receives funding from the European Union's Horizon 2020 research and innovation program under grant agreement No. 874735 (VEO, Versatile Emerging infectious disease Observatory). RFG is supported by the NIH (R01AI132223, R01AI132244, U19AI142790, U54CA260581, U54HG007480, OT2HL158260), the Coalition for Epidemic Preparedness Innovation, the Wellcome Trust Foundation, Gilead Sciences, and the European and Developing Countries Clinical Trials Partnership Programme. ECH is supported by an Australian Research Council Laureate Fellowship (FL170100022). KGA is supported by the NIH (U19AI135995, U01AI151812, and UL1TR002550).

The genetic study is sketchy as well. It relies on timing of the jump to humans, but offers no transition animal reservoir to explain the jump. One would think that evidence would be apparent when looking at a relatively closed environment like a wet market. The genetic study tries to explain away "rare" genetic sequences as possible lab contamination. Um, maybe that lab 'contamination' was due to gain of function as outlined in the EcoHealth Alliance grant application.
Second study funding -
Funding: This project has been funded in whole or in part with Federal funds from the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, National Institutes of Health (NIH), Department of Health and Human Services, under Contract No. 75N93021C00015 (MW). JEP acknowledges support from the NIH (T15LM011271). NM acknowledges support from the National Science Foundation (NSF) (NSF-2028040). JIL acknowledges support from the NIH (5T32AI007244-38). JOW acknowledges support from the NIH (R01AI135992 and R01AI136056). RFG is supported by the NIH (R01AI132223, R01AI132244, U19AI142790, U54CA260581, U54HG007480, OT2HL158260), the Coalition for Epidemic Preparedness Innovation, the Wellcome Trust Foundation, Gilead Sciences, and the European and Developing Countries Clinical Trials Partnership Programme. MAS and AR acknowledge the support of the Wellcome Trust (Collaborators Award 206298/Z/17/Z – ARTIC network), the European Research Council (grant agreement no. 725422 – ReservoirDOCS) and the NIH (R01AI153044). KGA is supported by the NIH (U19AI135995, U01AI151812, and UL1TR002550). ECH is funded by an Australian Research Council Laureate Fellowship (FL170100022). JL, HP, and MSP acknowledge support from the National Research Foundation of Korea, funded by the Ministry of Science and Information and Communication Technologies, Republic of Korea (NRF-2017M3A9E4061995 and NRF-2019R1A2C2084206). TIV acknowledges support from the Branco Weiss Fellowship. We thank AMD for the donation of critical hardware and support resources from its HPC Fund that made this work possible. This work was supported (in part) by the Epidemiology and Laboratory Capacity (ELC) for Infectious Diseases Cooperative Agreement (Grant Number: ELC DETECT (6NU50CK000517-01-07) funded by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). Its contents are solely the responsibility of the authors and do not necessarily represent the official views of CDC or the Department of Health and Human Services.

I wonder why some people are so invested in trying to protect Fauci.
Dr Fauci didn't purposely downplay Covid 19 at home.
 
Dec 31, 2014
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My natural bias is to look at facts. The EcoHealth Alliance Grant Application, along with the change in definition of 'gain of function' research is undeniable fact. Those things don't require any theory, or attempts to link correlation to causation. There's also the fact there's never been a transition animal reservoir identified. There's also the fact, as stated in the second study, there's a gap in the genetic sequence that can't be explained.

When did you find the time to become a genetic scientist? Where did you get your degree?

Why should any thinking person trust your conclusions of such questions?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias[2] whereby people with low ability, expertise, or experience regarding a certain type of a task or area of knowledge tend to overestimate their ability or knowledge.
 

SA_Hawk

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Why does the Chinese Communist party continue to blame the U.S. Army for creating the virus and releasing it if just came from a wet market?

Also how do we explain multiple lab workers checking themselves into hospitals with Covid symptoms weeks before the wet market cluster?

We also need answers on why the Chinese government was freaking out and disappearing doctors who were speaking out and trying to post the genetic sequencing in the early stages of the disease?

Of course the first known cluster was around a farmers market because it's where people gather and live. Guessing many don't live and gather around the Whuan lab full of deadly viruses. I would be curious to see a map of where lab employees live in relationships to the market.
 
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ExcellentBread

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Oct 17, 2002
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Why does the Chinese Communist party continue to blame the U.S. Army for creating the virus and releasing it if just came from a wet market?

Also how do we explain multiple lab workers checking themselves into hospitals with Covid symptoms weeks before the wet market cluster?

We also need answers on why the Chinese government was freaking out and disappearing doctors who were speaking out and trying to post the genetic sequencing in the early stages of the disease?

Of course the first known cluster was around a farmers market because it's where people gather and live. Guessing many don't live and gather around the Whuan lab full of deadly viruses. I would be curious to see a map of where lab employees live in relationships to the market.
Ok and once we have those answers then, what? Those are Chinese issues and they need to be solved by the Chinese populous, not by Americans.

In many ways China messed this up, but our citizens didn’t do so hot either.

I think it’s worth investigating the lab leak theory. I don’t think that makes Fauci a criminal even if it’s true. You weirdos act like he is some sort of mad scientist in an evil lair creating this virus.

One thing that always threw me for a loop is the same people (conservatives) wanting to bury Fauci for Covid origins are the same ones who downplay the severity of the virus.
 
Nov 28, 2010
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That's 8 years old.

Surely we have proper controls in place by now.

Nor does it explain why people are afraid. Lots of lab research involves risk - but the risk is deemed worth it because of the potential benefits. The idea is to mitigate those risks through proper controls, training and equipment.

It's hard to imagine COVID would be treated any differently if not for the politicization.
 

seminole97

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Jun 14, 2005
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What do classified U.S. Intelligence reports say?
Screen-Shot-2022-01-11-at-9.36.47-AM-e1641915447945.png
 
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seminole97

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That's 8 years old.

Surely we have proper controls in place by now.

Nor does it explain why people are afraid. Lots of lab research involves risk - but the risk is deemed worth it because of the potential benefits. The idea is to mitigate those risks through proper controls, training and equipment.

It's hard to imagine COVID would be treated any differently if not for the politicization.
You realize this was farmed out to Eco-Health alliance to be conducted by the Chinese specifically to skirt the ‘proper controls’ on gain of function research put in place by the Obama admin, right?
 

Finance85

HR Legend
Oct 22, 2003
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How?

Walk us through it.
https://www.judicialwatch.org/wp-co...-EcoHealth-Wuhan-Prod-7-00696-pgs-267-268.pdf

https://www.judicialwatch.org/documents/jw-v-hhs-nih-ecohealth-wuhan-prod-7-00696-pgs-3-34/

“To analyze which viruses were a potential public health risk, we managed to cultivate three strains of SARSr-CoVs from bat feces… We used the genetic codes of some of the other viruses we found in bats and inserted spike protein genes of those viruses (the proteins that attach to cells) into the cultured viruses. By doing this experiment we showed that other viruses may also be able to infect human cells, and were able to do this safely without the need to culture large amounts of virus…. This work proves that there is a clear and present danger for future emergence of novel SARS-like viruses in people,” Chmura state

NIH admits gain of function
 

NorthDSMHawk

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Oct 24, 2016
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That's 8 years old.

Surely we have proper controls in place by now.

Nor does it explain why people are afraid. Lots of lab research involves risk - but the risk is deemed worth it because of the potential benefits. The idea is to mitigate those risks through proper controls, training and equipment.

It's hard to imagine COVID would be treated any differently if not for the politicization.
You're right, we've definingly solved all the issues we believed we need to be cautious about since Obama's was in office. That's basically forever ago. Medical research practices were nearly in the stone age back then.

JFC
 
Dec 31, 2014
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Ok and once we have those answers then, what? Those are Chinese issues and they need to be solved by the Chinese populous, not by Americans.

In many ways China messed this up, but our citizens didn’t do so hot either.

I think it’s worth investigating the lab leak theory. I don’t think that makes Fauci a criminal even if it’s true. You weirdos act like he is some sort of mad scientist in an evil lair creating this virus.

One thing that always threw me for a loop is the same people (conservatives) wanting to bury Fauci for Covid origins are the same ones who downplay the severity of the virus.

Please keep posting here, you’ve single handedly raised the average IQ two points.
 
Dec 31, 2014
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https://www.judicialwatch.org/wp-co...-EcoHealth-Wuhan-Prod-7-00696-pgs-267-268.pdf

https://www.judicialwatch.org/documents/jw-v-hhs-nih-ecohealth-wuhan-prod-7-00696-pgs-3-34/

“To analyze which viruses were a potential public health risk, we managed to cultivate three strains of SARSr-CoVs from bat feces… We used the genetic codes of some of the other viruses we found in bats and inserted spike protein genes of those viruses (the proteins that attach to cells) into the cultured viruses. By doing this experiment we showed that other viruses may also be able to infect human cells, and were able to do this safely without the need to culture large amounts of virus…. This work proves that there is a clear and present danger for future emergence of novel SARS-like viruses in people,” Chmura state

NIH admits gain of function

Your source sucks.



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Reasoning: Conspiracy, Propaganda, Numerous Failed Fact Checks
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JudicialWatch continued.

History

Founded in 1994 by Larry Klayman, Judicial Watch (JW) is an American conservative activist group that files Freedom of Information Act(FOIA) lawsuits to investigate government officials’ alleged misconduct. They primarily target Democrats such as the Clinton’s, Obama, and climate scientists as they label climate science “fraud science.” Judicial Watch has made numerous false and unsubstantiated claims, with a “vast majority” of their lawsuits dismissed. They describe themselves as “a conservative, non-partisan educational foundation, promotes transparency, accountability, and integrity in government, politics and the law.” The current President of JW is Tom Fitton.

Read our profile on the United States government and media.

Funded by / Ownership

Judicial Watch is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization with contributions from individuals, foundations, and corporations. According to Sourcewatch, JW receives funding from prominent right-wing organizations such as the Carthage Foundation and Scaife Foundation.

Analysis / Bias

Judicial Watch reports news on their website using strong emotional language that is usually pro-right or anti-left. Common topics covered are anti-immigration, in which they highlight crimes committed by illegal immigrants such as this: Busy Month for Illegal Immigrants Committing Heinous Crimes or dedicating an entire website to exposing former President Obama’s alleged IRS scandal. They have also promoted debunked conspiracy theories such as this. Further, the founder of JW, Larry Klayman, recently promoted the conspiracy that the Clintons were killing people. In general, the majority of content and story selection is anti-left.
 
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desihawk

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the obfuscation, coverup, and just plain bad behavior by the chinese in the weeks during and after the outbreak did as much to disgust the world and create suspicions as location of their labs. not to mention 5000 chinese covid deaths to date in comparison to millions in every major economy.
 
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Unproven conspiracy theory? Hardly. There's plenty of email evidence of coercion by Fauci and Collins to try and suppress the lab leak theory. They enlisted Peter Daszak to stomp the lab leak theory. This was just after Kristian Andersen's email to Fauci about an unexplained sequence that "looks engineered".

There are over 3000 pages of Fauci e-mails on this topic. Many of those e-mails are attempts to repress information coming from researchers outside the NIAID.

You don't have to believe me though. I didn't create the emails.
Fauci also came out in early 2019 and said that people shouldn’t be wearing masks yet. Why was that? Did we have an administration that was being supportive at that time? Did we have a president Who was telling the truth in anyway regarding the pandemic?

Or did we have a so-called president and a so-called American Who was responsible for cutting budgets of the exact agencies who needed to deal with the pandemic?

We had a situation where there weren’t even enough N 95 masks for 2/3 of Frontline healthcare workers To use during the first outbreak. Fauci knew how perilously low the supplies were, and so he had to tell a white lie so the people wouldn’t make a run on masks etc. in the same way that they made a run a goddamn toilet paper.

Everybody is taught in this Neoliberal capitalist hell scape that it’s “me first“ as opposed to community. There are more guns than people in this country because for the most part we do not know how to work together. It is by design and it is not just dysfunctional, but it is sick.

I believe that there were some grants to the virology institute in China that Republicans and conspiracy mongers could make look damning, and clearly the government of China was in denial for a certain amount of time and were directly responsible for the initial spread of the virus because they don’t wanna look incompetent and they are a one party pretty much dictatorial state.

if Fauci were working under a responsible administration, and if we funded healthcare like we should, and if anything were anywhere close to normal, our public officials could be honest with the American people. But in this case there were white lies that were told and it fed into the forces that seek to confuse and divide people
and propagandize public health.

The party that politicized this pandemic from the very get-go were the Republicans. And they still do. It is not just sick. It is evil.
 
Nov 28, 2010
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You're right, we've definingly solved all the issues we believed we need to be cautious about since Obama's was in office. That's basically forever ago. Medical research practices were nearly in the stone age back then.

JFC
Again, you substitute snark for any actual explanation or evidence of what you seem to be afraid of.

We do dangerous research all the time, all around the world. We have standards and practices that we impose on ourselves and those who get our money. They aren't perfect, but they help.

We can always do better, and we should be doing better. But the complaints from your side have all the force and proof of a kid saying "I don't like it."

Try thinking and speaking like an adult. If, that is, you actually have anything to say other than that words like "gain of function" make you wet your pants.
 
Nov 28, 2010
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https://www.judicialwatch.org/wp-co...-EcoHealth-Wuhan-Prod-7-00696-pgs-267-268.pdf

https://www.judicialwatch.org/documents/jw-v-hhs-nih-ecohealth-wuhan-prod-7-00696-pgs-3-34/

“To analyze which viruses were a potential public health risk, we managed to cultivate three strains of SARSr-CoVs from bat feces… We used the genetic codes of some of the other viruses we found in bats and inserted spike protein genes of those viruses (the proteins that attach to cells) into the cultured viruses. By doing this experiment we showed that other viruses may also be able to infect human cells, and were able to do this safely without the need to culture large amounts of virus…. This work proves that there is a clear and present danger for future emergence of novel SARS-like viruses in people,” Chmura state

NIH admits gain of function
Your statement was

"We know that gain of function research was taking place, and that research would explain the end result."

I asked you how gain of function would explain the end result.

All you've done here is repeat that gain of function was part of the research.

That does not even slightly explain how COVID got going.
 

Bill Doak and 9 others

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When Alice Hughes downloaded a preprint from the server Research Square in September 2021, she could hardly believe her eyes. The study described a massive effort to survey bat viruses in China, in search of clues to the origins of the COVID-19 pandemic. A team of 21 researchers from the country’s leading academic institutions had trapped more than 17,000 bats, from the subtropical south to the frigid northeast, and tested them for relatives of SARS-CoV-2.

The number they found: zero.