Understanding what stalling really is and the reasons why we think we see it:

[MSU158]

I know most "fans" want to see wide open offense and a LOT of points. But, the truth is, the current DI wrestler is exponentially more fundamentally sound than 20 or 30 years ago and even 5 years ago. The base stance and handfighting is so ingrained that it becomes 2nd nature. Breaking through head/hands is ridiculously hard and counters are soooo much better than ever before.

Why?

1.) Access- Social media gives you direct, at your fingertips, access to 20 different coaches teaching variations of every type of position or technique. Meanwhile, in my time, I was lucky to watch a fuzzy vhs tape!

2.)Training diversity-In my time you, outside of your school room, you were lucky to go to a camp or 2 a year or maybe practice with a rival school from time to time. Now, you can easily get into clubs,private training with AA's or even Champs and RTC's are available to many of the top guys.

3.) Year round dedication-Most of us were 3 sport athletes and only the elite of elites(even some of them I know shut down off season) trained year around and focused only on wrestling.


Simply put, most DI wrestlers are coming in "college ready" compared to my time and even maybe 10 years ago. On top of that, "college ready" is simply way better than it was in the 80's or 90's. Make no mistake the wrestling is CONSIDERABLY better. It may not always be appealing to the casual fan's eyes, but they are so fundamentally sound that trying to open up offensively more likely than not puts the aggressor in more danger of being scored upon than the defensive wrestler. This then gets magnified considerably when it come down to the top guys against each other. This is why you see so much more collar ties and hand fighting. These guys are NOT trying to stall. They are simply trying to get the other guy out of position so they actually can fire off a decent attack. The problem is, getting the other guy out of position for the time necessary to fire off a good attack is becoming REALLY hard against the top guys now.

I know everyone wants to see "action" but, I suggest learning how to watch the little things like head position, hand fighting, stance(weight distribution and feet positioning/movement). As a final example, listen to how Gibbons spoke about Marinelli through his finals match. He constantly refers to his "square stance" and maximizing the possible output for that type of positioning. This is so important because it stresses how fundamentally sound it is, but it also points out that guys can scout against it and make it hard for him to create offense if the opponent doesn't pressure back into him.

 

[Bones Malone]

Lots of great points. I am guilty of making comparison's to what Hawk fans experienced in the past with Gable at the helm and also realize this is not fair the to coaches/athletes. Times have changed, so these may not be a fair comparisons. However, I do get frustrated with the Hawk's level of conditioning at some weights.

A 2-1 or 3-2 win is great, but bonus points are the key to winning team titles. Iowa had one fall this past weekend and zero tech falls. If we spend more time working for falls, the bonus points will come, especially considering the 4 pt near fall. Also, less time on the mat, allows fewer opportunities for injury.

Conditioning is something we can control. It can win matches and put the odds in our favor to score bonus points.

 

[MSU158]

Lots of great points. I am guilty of making comparison's to what Hawk fans experienced in the past with Gable at the helm and also realize this is not fair the to coaches/athletes. Times have changed, so these may not be a fair comparisons. However, I do get frustrated with the Hawk's level of conditioning at some weights.

A 2-1 or 3-2 win is great, but bonus points are the key to winning team titles. Iowa had one fall this past weekend and zero tech falls. If we spend more time working for falls, the bonus points will come, especially considering the 4 pt near fall. Also, less time on the mat, allows fewer opportunities for injury.

Conditioning is something we can control. It can win matches and put the odds in our favor to score bonus points.

The real problem with bonus is, other than DeSanto the guys that are bonus point scorers are significantly injured:

1: Lee-Out for the season.

2. Eierman-Finger issues were huge all year and than now he has his knee wrapped.

3. Kemerer-No one was more active on their feet last year than he was. This year, the should is a huge concern.


Still, guys like Marinelli and Cass should be able to get high enough seeds to get early bonus at NCAA's, while the B1G was just too deep and, at the same time, condensed to 14 teams, to give them the easier 1st or 2nd round opportunities.

After them, you just don't have guys with styles that light up the scoreboard, no matter if they were living in a hyperbaric chamber with 4 lungs and 2 hearts. Murin, Young and Warner simply aren't designed to attack at high rates and Assad seems a bit physically outmatched at 184.

 

[WxNWHawk]

I know most "fans" want to see wide open offense and a LOT of points. But, the truth is, the current DI wrestler is exponentially more fundamentally sound than 20 or 30 years ago and even 5 years ago. The base stance and handfighting is so ingrained that it becomes 2nd nature. Breaking through head/hands is ridiculously hard and counters are soooo much better than ever before.

Why?

1.) Access- Social media gives you direct, at your fingertips, access to 20 different coaches teaching variations of every type of position or technique. Meanwhile, in my time, I was lucky to watch a fuzzy vhs tape!

2.)Training diversity-In my time you, outside of your school room, you were lucky to go to a camp or 2 a year or maybe practice with a rival school from time to time. Now, you can easily get into clubs,private training with AA's or even Champs and RTC's are available to many of the top guys.

3.) Year round dedication-Most of us were 3 sport athletes and only the elite of elites(even some of them I know shut down off season) trained year around and focused only on wrestling.


Simply put, most DI wrestlers are coming in "college ready" compared to my time and even maybe 10 years ago. On top of that, "college ready" is simply way better than it was in the 80's or 90's. Make no mistake the wrestling is CONSIDERABLY better. It may not always be appealing to the casual fan's eyes, but they are so fundamentally sound that trying to open up offensively more likely than not puts the aggressor in more danger of being scored upon than the defensive wrestler. This then gets magnified considerably when it come down to the top guys against each other. This is why you see so much more collar ties and hand fighting. These guys are NOT trying to stall. They are simply trying to get the other guy out of position so they actually can fire off a decent attack. The problem is, getting the other guy out of position for the time necessary to fire off a good attack is becoming REALLY hard against the top guys now.

I know everyone wants to see "action" but, I suggest learning how to watch the little things like head position, hand fighting, stance(weight distribution and feet positioning/movement). As a final example, listen to how Gibbons spoke about Marinelli through his finals match. He constantly refers to his "square stance" and maximizing the possible output for that type of positioning. This is so important because it stresses how fundamentally sound it is, but it also points out that guys can scout against it and make it hard for him to create offense if the opponent doesn't pressure back into him.

I don't disagree that wrestlers are miles better than they used to be both offensively and defensively. That's not debateable.

But...

The goal in wrestling is to outscore your opponent. The very purpose of a wrestling match is to score points.

If the current rule set and the way it's enforced makes scoring for top wrestlers extremely low or even non-existent, then that rule set needs to be adjusted. If wrestlers have become so good that their strategy is to avoid wrestling and simply block shots, get an escape point and ride opponents out, then it goes against the spirit of the sport. The rules of wrestling should be such that it forces competitors to take risks to score. And as long as those rules are the same for all wrestlers, it is fair.

 

[IAChief32]

I know most "fans" want to see wide open offense and a LOT of points. But, the truth is, the current DI wrestler is exponentially more fundamentally sound than 20 or 30 years ago and even 5 years ago. The base stance and handfighting is so ingrained that it becomes 2nd nature. Breaking through head/hands is ridiculously hard and counters are soooo much better than ever before.

Why?

1.) Access- Social media gives you direct, at your fingertips, access to 20 different coaches teaching variations of every type of position or technique. Meanwhile, in my time, I was lucky to watch a fuzzy vhs tape!

2.)Training diversity-In my time you, outside of your school room, you were lucky to go to a camp or 2 a year or maybe practice with a rival school from time to time. Now, you can easily get into clubs,private training with AA's or even Champs and RTC's are available to many of the top guys.

3.) Year round dedication-Most of us were 3 sport athletes and only the elite of elites(even some of them I know shut down off season) trained year around and focused only on wrestling.


Simply put, most DI wrestlers are coming in "college ready" compared to my time and even maybe 10 years ago. On top of that, "college ready" is simply way better than it was in the 80's or 90's. Make no mistake the wrestling is CONSIDERABLY better. It may not always be appealing to the casual fan's eyes, but they are so fundamentally sound that trying to open up offensively more likely than not puts the aggressor in more danger of being scored upon than the defensive wrestler. This then gets magnified considerably when it come down to the top guys against each other. This is why you see so much more collar ties and hand fighting. These guys are NOT trying to stall. They are simply trying to get the other guy out of position so they actually can fire off a decent attack. The problem is, getting the other guy out of position for the time necessary to fire off a good attack is becoming REALLY hard against the top guys now.

I know everyone wants to see "action" but, I suggest learning how to watch the little things like head position, hand fighting, stance(weight distribution and feet positioning/movement). As a final example, listen to how Gibbons spoke about Marinelli through his finals match. He constantly refers to his "square stance" and maximizing the possible output for that type of positioning. This is so important because it stresses how fundamentally sound it is, but it also points out that guys can scout against it and make it hard for him to create offense if the opponent doesn't pressure back into him.

Nice post that articulates some of the issues in wrestling…especially about the diversity of thought. It’s why many of these kids are ready to come in and start contributing.

I had another post about RBY that he is wrestling within the framework and ruleset in which the refs operate in. Yea, it’s no f**, especially given his athletic prowess but it gets the job done. During the finals match between Fix and RBY, RBY got rung up three times I believe. I wasn’t so much irritated at the stall calls but that Angel stepped outside of the normal for one match. If refs were quicker to call it regularly or we went to a push out, we would see a lot more shots and wrestling in the middle.

 

[MSU158]

I don't disagree that wrestlers are miles better than they used to be both offensively and defensively. That's not debateable.

But...

The goal in wrestling is to outscore your opponent. The very purpose of a wrestling match is to score points.

If the current rule set and the way it's enforced makes scoring for top wrestlers extremely low or even non-existent, then that rule set needs to be adjusted. If wrestlers have become so good that their strategy is to avoid wrestling and simply block shots, get an escape point and ride opponents out, then it goes against the spirit of the sport. The rules of wrestling should be such that it forces competitors to take risks to score. And as long as those rules are the same for all wrestlers, it is fair.

The problem is I have NO idea how to fairly incentivize or create rules that force good, active offense. No matter what you do, the 1st, key fundamental part of wrestling is the stance. The elites master that to the point that it may look like they are avoiding wrestling to the laymen, but they are actually working their but off in the ties to try to create offense. The same goes for mat wrestling. Once you learn the best positioning possible it creates a "stalemate" throughout the process.

 

[WxNWHawk]

The problem is I have NO idea how to fairly incentivize or create rules that force good, active offense. No matter what you do, the 1st, key fundamental part of wrestling is the stance. The elites master that to the point that it may look like they are avoiding wrestling to the laymen, but they are actually working their but off in the ties to try to create offense. The same goes for mat wrestling. Once you learn the best positioning possible it creates a "stalemate" throughout the process.

I get that, but if you hammer guys for not taking shots then they have to take risks. Both of them.

Remember, the rules are same for both, so it's not like one guy is getting penalized unfairly.

Look at Marinelli/Amine yesterday. I don't know how anyone couldn't see that Amine was passive and fleeing the entire match. In FS he'd have gotten DQ'd before the 3rd period.

RBY wins a title by taking no shots. That's a fundamental problem with the rules. You need to threaten a guy who games the rules with penalties and FS gets it right.

 

[WxNWHawk]

If refs were quicker to call it regularly or we went to a push out, we would see a lot more shots and wrestling in the middle.

This is huge. Pushout and fleeing I can't see one valid reason not to make that a rule.

If you're not working towards the center, you can only be doing one of two things...fleeing or wrestling. Penalize two out of the three.

 

[Jimmy two times]

I know most "fans" want to see wide open offense and a LOT of points. But, the truth is, the current DI wrestler is exponentially more fundamentally sound than 20 or 30 years ago and even 5 years ago. The base stance and handfighting is so ingrained that it becomes 2nd nature. Breaking through head/hands is ridiculously hard and counters are soooo much better than ever before.

Why?

1.) Access- Social media gives you direct, at your fingertips, access to 20 different coaches teaching variations of every type of position or technique. Meanwhile, in my time, I was lucky to watch a fuzzy vhs tape!

2.)Training diversity-In my time you, outside of your school room, you were lucky to go to a camp or 2 a year or maybe practice with a rival school from time to time. Now, you can easily get into clubs,private training with AA's or even Champs and RTC's are available to many of the top guys.

3.) Year round dedication-Most of us were 3 sport athletes and only the elite of elites(even some of them I know shut down off season) trained year around and focused only on wrestling.


Simply put, most DI wrestlers are coming in "college ready" compared to my time and even maybe 10 years ago. On top of that, "college ready" is simply way better than it was in the 80's or 90's. Make no mistake the wrestling is CONSIDERABLY better. It may not always be appealing to the casual fan's eyes, but they are so fundamentally sound that trying to open up offensively more likely than not puts the aggressor in more danger of being scored upon than the defensive wrestler. This then gets magnified considerably when it come down to the top guys against each other. This is why you see so much more collar ties and hand fighting. These guys are NOT trying to stall. They are simply trying to get the other guy out of position so they actually can fire off a decent attack. The problem is, getting the other guy out of position for the time necessary to fire off a good attack is becoming REALLY hard against the top guys now.

I know everyone wants to see "action" but, I suggest learning how to watch the little things like head position, hand fighting, stance(weight distribution and feet positioning/movement). As a final example, listen to how Gibbons spoke about Marinelli through his finals match. He constantly refers to his "square stance" and maximizing the possible output for that type of positioning. This is so important because it stresses how fundamentally sound it is, but it also points out that guys can scout against it and make it hard for him to create offense if the opponent doesn't pressure back into him.

Thank you for posting this. I would much rather watch a high level, low scoring match with great defense than a 25-24 kindergarten match.
Or a 110-109 basketball game😀

 

[IAChief32]

This is huge. Pushout and fleeing I can't see one valid reason not to make that a rule.

If you're not working towards the center, you can only be doing one of two things...fleeing or wrestling. Penalize two out of the three.

Changing the rules in freestyle made me like it better than folk. It’s not a coincidence that the change to to two three minute periods, no ball grab, push outs and no OT favored the American style of wrestling. We went from being happy to medal to winning golds.

I think if they went to push outs, it would create more action in neutral for folk than it did for freestyle because there is now a sense of urgency because of the riding aspect of folk style. You go to the second period down by one or two because you wrestle the edge vs the same old 0-0 formula.

 

[lookleft goright]

It is no doubt the wrestlers have gotten stronger and are able to hold position better, but if what we are watching was called stalling, you would see more shots turning into second and 3rd moves to get the takedown. Moving backwards is not good positional wrestling and just pushing a guy is not good wrestling either.
Even baseball has a limit to how long a pitcher can wait to throw a pitch and how often a guy can step out of the batter's box. Basketball has a shot clock. Football has a play clock. And we can't seem to figure out a way to get someone to make an offensive move in 3 minutes or sometimes 7 minutes?

 

[Agoodnap]

Perhaps a review of the rule book on stalling is in order. I'll start with Section 7, Article 10:

Art. 10. Stalling by Pushing or Pulling — Offensive or Defensive Position.
Pushing or pulling the opponent out of bounds so as to force a restart�

Here is the rule book:
NCAA Wrestling Rule Book 2021 - 2023

 

[Trapper85]

This is huge. Pushout and fleeing I can't see one valid reason not to make that a rule.

If you're not working towards the center, you can only be doing one of two things...fleeing or wrestling. Penalize two out of the three.

It's hard for me not to agree with this, but I can't help but think I see just as many 'boring' freestyle matches as I do folkstyle. Passivity, like stalling, still has a subjectivity component by refs, pushouts aren't exciting nor a guarantee of subsequent action (except maybe those late desperation flurries if behind), and so on. But I got no great ideas to improve. More incentive for takedowns (3 pts), limit riding time, better standardize and enforce stalling, or make them wear a backwards step counter (fewest back steps gets 1 pt each period and up/down choice next period). Anywho, I'll shut up and leave it to others, but to me, freestyle rules are no guarantee of excitement.

 

[EvilMonkeyInTheCloset]

The problem is I have NO idea how to fairly incentivize or create rules that force good, active offense. No matter what you do, the 1st, key fundamental part of wrestling is the stance. The elites master that to the point that it may look like they are avoiding wrestling to the laymen, but they are actually working their but off in the ties to try to create offense. The same goes for mat wrestling. Once you learn the best positioning possible it creates a "stalemate" throughout the process.

Make a takedown worth 3 pts.......


You can't incentivize offense if you don't make it worth achieving.

Take football for example.

/devil's advocate

 

[Agoodnap]

Perhaps a review of the rule book on stalling is in order. I'll start with Section 7, Article 10:

Art. 10. Stalling by Pushing or Pulling — Offensive or Defensive Position.
Pushing or pulling the opponent out of bounds so as to force a restart�

Here is the rule book:
NCAA Wrestling Rule Book 2021 - 2023

No comments on Article 10 that I posted here? Article 10 covers two situations (Pushing or Pulling) but I'm interested in your thoughts on just one of them:

Stalling by Pushing the opponent out of bounds so as to force a restart.

Have you guys ever seen this activity?

 

[24 so far]

No comments on Article 10 that I posted here? Article 10 covers two situations (Pushing or Pulling) but I'm interested in your thoughts on just one of them:

Stalling by Pushing the opponent out of bounds so as to force a restart.

Have you guys ever seen this activity?

Sure. Sometimes you have to push a guy out so he'll get back to the center of the mat, otherwise he ain't going there.

 

[MVPFAN]

I'm all in on the step out. We've said if the refs just called stalling per the rules it would be fine but it never happens.

My take:

1. Use push out along with putting passive wrestlers on the penalty clock.
Or
2. Call the stalls like they should but to free the refs up to do so get rid of the stalling DQ. Refs don't want to end matches via stalling so they are forced to be passive in their calls so they don't get to that point. Get rid of the DQ, one stall warning and 1 point penalties for calls 2 through 4 and 2 point penalties starting at 5. Putting a count back for returning a guy to the mat needs to be part of it. Keep the backing out as a stall, call stalling when people crawl off for a restart or when someone pulls/pushes a guy off for a restart. Call stalling in general inside the circle like you are supposed to.

 

[PSU Mike]

Make a takedown worth 3 pts.......


You can't incentivize offense if you don't make it worth achieving.

Take football for example.

/devil's advocate

Flip side of that is many guys don’t shoot because fear of successful counter by opponent. If you make TD3, it raises your benefit but equally raises risk of successful counter. It’s a wash. It does drive a little wedge b/w benefit of riding longer vs. getting back to your feet to try for another 3.

 

[EvilMonkeyInTheCloset]

Flip side of that is many guys don’t shoot because fear of successful counter by opponent. If you make TD3, it raises your benefit but equally raises risk of successful counter. It’s a wash. It does drive a little wedge b/w benefit of riding longer vs. getting back to your feet to try for another 3.

And that's where the emphasis towards stalling on the feet comes in.

We've seen it called more in recent years (even though it could be called even MORE).

If they're gonna be afraid to attack, then they're gonna get penalized one way or another.

Git gud at offense, as the kids would say nowadays.......

But in all seriousness, if someone can't score on someone whose counter game is stronger, then it doesn't really matter how many pts they get for a TD anyway.

 

[Agoodnap]

Sure. Sometimes you have to push a guy out so he'll get back to the center of the mat, otherwise he ain't going there.

There's the issue, pushing someone out is stalling on the guy who does the pushing and it's right in the rule book plainly written.

When one wrestler entire mission is to push the other guy out of bounds in an attempt to get a stall call (which according to the rules is incorrect) than the pushing wrestler is the one who is stagnating the shots.

 

[MVPFAN]

There's the issue, pushing someone out is stalling on the guy who does the pushing and it's right in the rule book plainly written.

When one wrestler entire mission is to push the other guy out of bounds in an attempt to get a stall call (which according to the rules is incorrect) than the pushing wrestler is the one who is stagnating the shots.

That's not what 23 is talking about. He is talking about guys hanging out on the edge of the mat the whole match.

 

[IAChief32]

There's the issue, pushing someone out is stalling on the guy who does the pushing and it's right in the rule book plainly written.

When one wrestler entire mission is to push the other guy out of bounds in an attempt to get a stall call (which according to the rules is incorrect) than the pushing wrestler is the one who is stagnating the shots.

The first stall call was at 1:15 into the second period…Marinelli had double unders and Amine bailed straight backwards. Second time he did that in the period. Wasn’t called the first time. Same with the second call with 30 secs left. Locking up a potential throw is not stalling. Bailing as fast you can straight backwards is.

 

[24 so far]

There's the issue, pushing someone out is stalling on the guy who does the pushing and it's right in the rule book plainly written.

When one wrestler entire mission is to push the other guy out of bounds in an attempt to get a stall call (which according to the rules is incorrect) than the pushing wrestler is the one who is stagnating the shots.

LOL! Well you be sure and point out to us and the Referee's when someone's "entire mission" is to push someone out of bounds for a stall call. If you don't understand what is ACTUALLY going on neither the Referee nor I can help you.

 

[burk11]

Interesting thread. As a result of the 2022 wrestling season some posters be experiencing irrational dismay. More likely a form of cognitive dissonance (reality conflicts with expectation).Changing wrestling rules en-masse unlikely to be therapeutic for that syndrome.

I truly appreciate a talented wrestler who can ride. And I want to see both bottom and top wrestlers work to improve their position. If not, the wrestlers should be warned, and then penalized.

I do not like the freestyle par terre position. Typical referee rulings effecting wrestlers in this position makes it just about meaningless. Nor do I like the freestyle scoring regarding the ‘pushout’. I think the pushout was simply a scoring accommodation made to European and Asian wrestlers who could not ride (it was in fact international politics). The pushout was also put in place to disadvantage talented American folkstyle wrestlers whose amateur wrestling career required the development of riding skills.

Years past (think Gable’s career) a “Black Mark” system was used in international competition, and the system was both effective and popular with most American wrestlers. The Black Mark scoring system emphasized the fall, and always rewarded the offensive/scoring wrestler. I believe the system was round-robin, and as I recall receiving five (5) Black Marks during the course of the tournament eliminated a wrestler from competition. The senior-citizens of the board are more knowledgeable of the Black Mark system and will correct my inaccuracies.

Freedom for Ukraine

 

[Yellow Snow]

Let me know what you guys feel about the stall calls in this one.... ref had balls

 

[Bones Malone]

Have no problems with the calls and the wrestlers still able to determined the winner.

 

[el dub]

LOL! Well you be sure and point out to us and the Referee's when someone's "entire mission" is to push someone out of bounds for a stall call. If you don't understand what is ACTUALLY going on neither the Referee nor I can help you.

I wouldn’t let a guy play the edge like that, as they are the only ones in position to shoot and finish a shot ON THE MAT.

What is a person supposed to do if the opponent won’t circle back in? Push the out and force a restart.

 

[Grip220]

If the rules were followed and called as stated we probably would not be talking about changing them.
All conference and national tournaments championship rounds should have side judges that call the stall calls and handle the reviews as written, the rest would follow suite once they are called correctly and unbiased.

 

[pablow]

Stalling, in neutral, is backing up and refusing to engage. I don't understand how improved defense explains backing up an not engaging.

 

[Spaceman Spifff]

Maybe doesn't fit the thread, and I've pushed this one before, but I never understood why a reversal wasn't worth 3 (1 for an escape and 2 for a takedown). With the current rules a reversal is better than an escape sometimes as you can accrue riding time and could end the period on top, but often times it's no better than a simple escape.