Weight lifting thread/advice

[Tenacious E]

2-3 lb per month rate of gain is probably unrealistic. He’s 15...I encourage consultation with his pediatrician. And any such aggressive lifting routine ought to carefully monitored to prevent injury.

Trust me we are familiar with growth plate/overuse injuries due to him being a pitcher in baseball. He's pretty much done growing and will be 16 in November. I don't think the routine is really all that aggressive and growth is being targeted throughout his entire body. Professionals like Monzon didn't seem to think it was folly, but those familiar with school-based strength and conditioning programs at the high school level please correct me if we're misguided.

 

[Tenacious E]

Use Wall Squats as a good measuring stick. Put his ties against the wall and squat. He will fall back. But he will keep getting lower and lower as the weeks go and his core builds and he learns how to sit back rather than shoot his knees forward.

Thanks any advice is appreciated. I do think his squatting form is pretty good and that the school strength program does a good job teaching form...

 

[Nipigu]

Trust me we are familiar with growth plate/overuse injuries due to him being a pitcher in baseball. He's pretty much done growing and will be 16 in November. I don't think the routine is really all that aggressive and growth is being targeted throughout his entire body. Professionals like Monzon didn't seem to think it was folly, but those familiar with school-based strength and conditioning programs at the high school level please correct me if we're misguided.

I’d be out of order to say more. I’m glad you are being careful and on top of it.

 

[Monzon]

Trust me we are familiar with growth plate/overuse injuries due to him being a pitcher in baseball. He's pretty much done growing and will be 16 in November. I don't think the routine is really all that aggressive and growth is being targeted throughout his entire body. Professionals like Monzon didn't seem to think it was folly, but those familiar with school-based strength and conditioning programs at the high school level please correct me if we're misguided.

Good progress on the bench. What's the squat, deadlift and overhead press #'s? Is he cleaning yet? He's young so he's going to do "beach work". It isn't optimal, but anyone desiring style or appearance will. Just how it is, and I can talk until I'm blue in the face with a bunch of head nodding but convincing a kid he doesn't need to do it when his hormones are raging is usually a futile effort.

Really, I'd recommend using the Starting Strength linear progression model for him at this stage, at least for the next few months. It is the most effective / time efficient program to get strong, and doesn't cost a bunch of $$ if you have access to a squat rack and barbell. The main book would be Basic Barbell Training (paperback version, although there is also a Kindle version if you have that app). This *really* emphasizes the technique on the lifts, far more than just about any other literature out there. The main programming book would be Practical Programming for Strength Training (paperback version, although again there is a Kindle version if you have the app), but this isn't something you really need for a few months for your boy - it helps develop what the kid should do once he's exhausted his linear progression. Specifically for you, there's also The Barbell Prescription (paperback version, again it is also on Kindle) which talks about programming and for those of us over 40, and why lifting is better for longevity than other more trendy endeavors.

Couple of things: From an exercise / lift standpoint, this program emphasizes utlilzing entire body movement weight training over anything targeting specific muscles, and the squat gets the most attention. If properly done, your boy won't have any issue gaining 20 lbs provided he continues to eat. He'll also no longer fit into any of his pants after about 3 months because his thighs / ass will grow, so beware. This specific program also (at least during linear progression) focuses on just doing the basic lifts and adding weight each time, which means it's best to completely cut the accessory stuff with flies, curls, etc. If the boy's concerned with his biceps, he can do chinups and eventually weighted chinups. Cleans are important, especially as the boy does football. He will notice a difference in his explosiveness even after just a few weeks, so those cannot be neglected.

There are hundreds, if not thousands, of different ways for your son to get bigger, stronger, and more ideal from a football perspective to be better on the field by utilizing weight training. And to be clear, I think this is the best way for you to get him there during the winter months. Once he's exhausted the linear progression, whether you want to utilize PPST, something from Barbell Medicine, Wendler... that's kinda up to your son (and you). But I would imagine at that point he'll be (rough numbers) benching 250, squatting 300+ and deadlifting 400. His performance on the field will be noticeably better.

 

[Tenacious E]

Good progress on the bench. What's the squat, deadlift and overhead press #'s? Is he cleaning yet? He's young so he's going to do "beach work". It isn't optimal, but anyone desiring style or appearance will. Just how it is, and I can talk until I'm blue in the face with a bunch of head nodding but convincing a kid he doesn't need to do it when his hormones are raging is usually a futile effort.

Really, I'd recommend using the Starting Strength linear progression model for him at this stage, at least for the next few months. It is the most effective / time efficient program to get strong, and doesn't cost a bunch of $$ if you have access to a squat rack and barbell. The main book would be Basic Barbell Training (paperback version, although there is also a Kindle version if you have that app). This *really* emphasizes the technique on the lifts, far more than just about any other literature out there. The main programming book would be Practical Programming for Strength Training (paperback version, although again there is a Kindle version if you have the app), but this isn't something you really need for a few months for your boy - it helps develop what the kid should do once he's exhausted his linear progression. Specifically for you, there's also The Barbell Prescription (paperback version, again it is also on Kindle) which talks about programming and for those of us over 40, and why lifting is better for longevity than other more trendy endeavors.

Couple of things: From an exercise / lift standpoint, this program emphasizes utlilzing entire body movement weight training over anything targeting specific muscles, and the squat gets the most attention. If properly done, your boy won't have any issue gaining 20 lbs provided he continues to eat. He'll also no longer fit into any of his pants after about 3 months because his thighs / ass will grow, so beware. This specific program also (at least during linear progression) focuses on just doing the basic lifts and adding weight each time, which means it's best to completely cut the accessory stuff with flies, curls, etc. If the boy's concerned with his biceps, he can do chinups and eventually weighted chinups. Cleans are important, especially as the boy does football. He will notice a difference in his explosiveness even after just a few weeks, so those cannot be neglected.

There are hundreds, if not thousands, of different ways for your son to get bigger, stronger, and more ideal from a football perspective to be better on the field by utilizing weight training. And to be clear, I think this is the best way for you to get him there during the winter months. Once he's exhausted the linear progression, whether you want to utilize PPST, something from Barbell Medicine, Wendler... that's kinda up to your son (and you). But I would imagine at that point he'll be (rough numbers) benching 250, squatting 300+ and deadlifting 400. His performance on the field will be noticeably better.

Thanks awesome stuff! We started squatting but have not maxed yet. Just getting in the flow. We are also doing kind of a combo deadlift/barbell shrug exercise where we bring the dumbbells down to the floor and then once we get them off the floor like you would with a deadlift, we shrug them. So we have not done a deadlift max yet but will soon. We have incorporated military style press with dumbbells and also do incline dumbbells. For the incline he's doing about 50 to 55 pounds for 6 reps, but not max, again. We will need to do all of those. We maxed the bench early because that is the "sexy" lift and carrot... We will also do cleans. I need to read up on those and watch some videos to make sure we're doing them right...

 

[Tenacious E]

Good progress on the bench. What's the squat, deadlift and overhead press #'s? Is he cleaning yet? He's young so he's going to do "beach work". It isn't optimal, but anyone desiring style or appearance will. Just how it is, and I can talk until I'm blue in the face with a bunch of head nodding but convincing a kid he doesn't need to do it when his hormones are raging is usually a futile effort.

Really, I'd recommend using the Starting Strength linear progression model for him at this stage, at least for the next few months. It is the most effective / time efficient program to get strong, and doesn't cost a bunch of $$ if you have access to a squat rack and barbell. The main book would be Basic Barbell Training (paperback version, although there is also a Kindle version if you have that app). This *really* emphasizes the technique on the lifts, far more than just about any other literature out there. The main programming book would be Practical Programming for Strength Training (paperback version, although again there is a Kindle version if you have the app), but this isn't something you really need for a few months for your boy - it helps develop what the kid should do once he's exhausted his linear progression. Specifically for you, there's also The Barbell Prescription (paperback version, again it is also on Kindle) which talks about programming and for those of us over 40, and why lifting is better for longevity than other more trendy endeavors.

Couple of things: From an exercise / lift standpoint, this program emphasizes utlilzing entire body movement weight training over anything targeting specific muscles, and the squat gets the most attention. If properly done, your boy won't have any issue gaining 20 lbs provided he continues to eat. He'll also no longer fit into any of his pants after about 3 months because his thighs / ass will grow, so beware. This specific program also (at least during linear progression) focuses on just doing the basic lifts and adding weight each time, which means it's best to completely cut the accessory stuff with flies, curls, etc. If the boy's concerned with his biceps, he can do chinups and eventually weighted chinups. Cleans are important, especially as the boy does football. He will notice a difference in his explosiveness even after just a few weeks, so those cannot be neglected.

There are hundreds, if not thousands, of different ways for your son to get bigger, stronger, and more ideal from a football perspective to be better on the field by utilizing weight training. And to be clear, I think this is the best way for you to get him there during the winter months. Once he's exhausted the linear progression, whether you want to utilize PPST, something from Barbell Medicine, Wendler... that's kinda up to your son (and you). But I would imagine at that point he'll be (rough numbers) benching 250, squatting 300+ and deadlifting 400. His performance on the field will be noticeably better.

Watched some videos on the clean. Seems like we could eliminate several lifts as it combines deadlifts, shrugs, and then the clean part... I liked this video

 

[Tenacious E]

Good progress on the bench. What's the squat, deadlift and overhead press #'s? Is he cleaning yet? He's young so he's going to do "beach work". It isn't optimal, but anyone desiring style or appearance will. Just how it is, and I can talk until I'm blue in the face with a bunch of head nodding but convincing a kid he doesn't need to do it when his hormones are raging is usually a futile effort.

Really, I'd recommend using the Starting Strength linear progression model for him at this stage, at least for the next few months. It is the most effective / time efficient program to get strong, and doesn't cost a bunch of $$ if you have access to a squat rack and barbell. The main book would be Basic Barbell Training (paperback version, although there is also a Kindle version if you have that app). This *really* emphasizes the technique on the lifts, far more than just about any other literature out there. The main programming book would be Practical Programming for Strength Training (paperback version, although again there is a Kindle version if you have the app), but this isn't something you really need for a few months for your boy - it helps develop what the kid should do once he's exhausted his linear progression. Specifically for you, there's also The Barbell Prescription (paperback version, again it is also on Kindle) which talks about programming and for those of us over 40, and why lifting is better for longevity than other more trendy endeavors.

Couple of things: From an exercise / lift standpoint, this program emphasizes utlilzing entire body movement weight training over anything targeting specific muscles, and the squat gets the most attention. If properly done, your boy won't have any issue gaining 20 lbs provided he continues to eat. He'll also no longer fit into any of his pants after about 3 months because his thighs / ass will grow, so beware. This specific program also (at least during linear progression) focuses on just doing the basic lifts and adding weight each time, which means it's best to completely cut the accessory stuff with flies, curls, etc. If the boy's concerned with his biceps, he can do chinups and eventually weighted chinups. Cleans are important, especially as the boy does football. He will notice a difference in his explosiveness even after just a few weeks, so those cannot be neglected.

There are hundreds, if not thousands, of different ways for your son to get bigger, stronger, and more ideal from a football perspective to be better on the field by utilizing weight training. And to be clear, I think this is the best way for you to get him there during the winter months. Once he's exhausted the linear progression, whether you want to utilize PPST, something from Barbell Medicine, Wendler... that's kinda up to your son (and you). But I would imagine at that point he'll be (rough numbers) benching 250, squatting 300+ and deadlifting 400. His performance on the field will be noticeably better.

I was mistaken, he's done cleans and squats at school. He says is max clean is 155 and squat 200. certainly a long ways to go.,.

 

[Monzon]

Watched some videos on the clean. Seems like we could eliminate several lifts as it combines deadlifts, shrugs, and then the clean part... I liked this video

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The good thing about the SS program is that it eliminates about 70% of the lifts you indicated, because they are redundant / inefficient from a strength perspective.
You'll eliminate shrugs for sure, as the deadlift, power clean and overhead press all work the trapezius.

A typical SS linear progression would be something like this:
Week 1:
Monday - squat, overhead press, deadlift
Wednesday - squat, bench press, power clean
Friday - squat, overhead press, deadlift
Week 2:
Monday - squat, bench, power clean
Wednesday - squat, overhead press, deadlift
Friday - squat, bench, power clean

Rinse and repeat the next few months, making sure to add weight each session. Mix in chinups if he has the energy, at the end. Sound simple, but it's pretty brutal. Make sure the boy's eating and getting sleep. He will need the days off inbetween to recover.

 

[noleclone2]

FSU’s defense apparently was using these on the offseason. I don’t recommend.

 

[Tenacious E]

FSU’s defense apparently was using these on the offseason. I don’t recommend.

I audibly chortled.

 

[Tenacious E]

The good thing about the SS program is that it eliminates about 70% of the lifts you indicated, because they are redundant / inefficient from a strength perspective.
You'll eliminate shrugs for sure, as the deadlift, power clean and overhead press all work the trapezius.

A typical SS linear progression would be something like this:
Week 1:
Monday - squat, overhead press, deadlift
Wednesday - squat, bench press, power clean
Friday - squat, overhead press, deadlift
Week 2:
Monday - squat, bench, power clean
Wednesday - squat, overhead press, deadlift
Friday - squat, bench, power clean

Rinse and repeat the next few months, making sure to add weight each session. Mix in chinups if he has the energy, at the end. Sound simple, but it's pretty brutal. Make sure the boy's eating and getting sleep. He will need the days off inbetween to recover.

squats 3 days a week....

His football season looks like it will last at least another 3 weeks with the playoffs so once he's out of season we'll shake things up with that.

 

[Tenacious E]

The good thing about the SS program is that it eliminates about 70% of the lifts you indicated, because they are redundant / inefficient from a strength perspective.
You'll eliminate shrugs for sure, as the deadlift, power clean and overhead press all work the trapezius.

A typical SS linear progression would be something like this:
Week 1:
Monday - squat, overhead press, deadlift
Wednesday - squat, bench press, power clean
Friday - squat, overhead press, deadlift
Week 2:
Monday - squat, bench, power clean
Wednesday - squat, overhead press, deadlift
Friday - squat, bench, power clean

Rinse and repeat the next few months, making sure to add weight each session. Mix in chinups if he has the energy, at the end. Sound simple, but it's pretty brutal. Make sure the boy's eating and getting sleep. He will need the days off inbetween to recover.

30 days in exactly. Just maxed 200 on bench. Up to 152 pounds from 147. Military press with dumbbells was using 45s for 6 reps. Progress!

 

[Tenacious E]

Good progress on the bench. What's the squat, deadlift and overhead press #'s? Is he cleaning yet? He's young so he's going to do "beach work". It isn't optimal, but anyone desiring style or appearance will. Just how it is, and I can talk until I'm blue in the face with a bunch of head nodding but convincing a kid he doesn't need to do it when his hormones are raging is usually a futile effort.

Really, I'd recommend using the Starting Strength linear progression model for him at this stage, at least for the next few months. It is the most effective / time efficient program to get strong, and doesn't cost a bunch of $$ if you have access to a squat rack and barbell. The main book would be Basic Barbell Training (paperback version, although there is also a Kindle version if you have that app). This *really* emphasizes the technique on the lifts, far more than just about any other literature out there. The main programming book would be Practical Programming for Strength Training (paperback version, although again there is a Kindle version if you have the app), but this isn't something you really need for a few months for your boy - it helps develop what the kid should do once he's exhausted his linear progression. Specifically for you, there's also The Barbell Prescription (paperback version, again it is also on Kindle) which talks about programming and for those of us over 40, and why lifting is better for longevity than other more trendy endeavors.

Couple of things: From an exercise / lift standpoint, this program emphasizes utlilzing entire body movement weight training over anything targeting specific muscles, and the squat gets the most attention. If properly done, your boy won't have any issue gaining 20 lbs provided he continues to eat. He'll also no longer fit into any of his pants after about 3 months because his thighs / ass will grow, so beware. This specific program also (at least during linear progression) focuses on just doing the basic lifts and adding weight each time, which means it's best to completely cut the accessory stuff with flies, curls, etc. If the boy's concerned with his biceps, he can do chinups and eventually weighted chinups. Cleans are important, especially as the boy does football. He will notice a difference in his explosiveness even after just a few weeks, so those cannot be neglected.

There are hundreds, if not thousands, of different ways for your son to get bigger, stronger, and more ideal from a football perspective to be better on the field by utilizing weight training. And to be clear, I think this is the best way for you to get him there during the winter months. Once he's exhausted the linear progression, whether you want to utilize PPST, something from Barbell Medicine, Wendler... that's kinda up to your son (and you). But I would imagine at that point he'll be (rough numbers) benching 250, squatting 300+ and deadlifting 400. His performance on the field will be noticeably better.

We tested max for deadlift and squat last night. Only 205 on the squat but 275 deadlift using a hex bar. Also did plyometrics using a few boxes and those were too easy because the boxes were not tall enough. Is there another leaping drill you would suggest?

 

[JupiterHawk]

I might get banned for posting this ..

Spoiler

but seriously these are pretty old. Not sure if some of the methods are outdated

 

[FAUlty Gator]

We tested max for deadlift and squat last night. Only 205 on the squat but 275 deadlift using a hex bar. Also did plyometrics using a few boxes and those were too easy because the boxes were not tall enough. Is there another leaping drill you would suggest?

Dead Lift Jumps with hex bar you already have. Light weight explosive jumps.

 

[Tenacious E]

Dead Lift Jumps with hex bar you already have. Light weight explosive jumps.

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That is a fantastic idea thank you.

 

[FAUlty Gator]

That is a fantastic idea thank you.

Wall squats. Every day. No weight or bar. You don’t need the ball. Use it as a measuring stick for hip and core stability. He will fall back a lot. But he will continue to get better and learn how to bend his ones correctly and stable his core to keep balance. GREAT exercise. No equipment necessary.

Also get him a grip strengthener. Old school grip squeezer. Grip strength is incredibly important.

 

[Tenacious E]

Wall squats. Every day. No weight or bar. You don’t need the ball. Use it as a measuring stick for hip and core stability. He will fall back a lot. But he will continue to get better and learn how to bend his ones correctly and stable his core to keep balance. GREAT exercise. No equipment necessary.

Also get him a grip strengthener. Old school grip squeezer. Grip strength is incredibly important.

View embedded media

Also fantastic. We will work that in.

 

[UncannyNanny]

BFS is pretty solid. Bottom line is he needs to eat like a horse. Not that I am recommending a dirty diet, but at his age he can eat almost anything. (Still should be getting 150-200% of his body weight of protein on workout days) power cleans and squats are a must. Wouldn’t get too carried away with bicep/tricep type of deal at his age. Start with heavy complex movements and a 5x5 program.

 

[Monzon]

We tested max for deadlift and squat last night. Only 205 on the squat but 275 deadlift using a hex bar. Also did plyometrics using a few boxes and those were too easy because the boxes were not tall enough. Is there another leaping drill you would suggest?

That's not an unusual imbalance between bench / squat / deadlift for teens. Please ensure he's achieving proper depth in the squat, which would consist of the femurs going parallel or deeper at the bottom of the squat.

Deadlift with a barbell instead of a hexbar if you can - it becomes more difficult to keep the lumbar stable with a hexbar. Purists also don't consider it a real deadlift due to the anatomically advantageous position you have at the beginning, but I'm more concerned with him not injuring himself than some sort of shaming.

I'm no leaping drill expert. I'd be hesistant to do anything that restricted my leg movement / spacing like a hexbar, but what yellow suggested above doesn't appear to be too dangerous under the correct conditions (stable landing surface, no one else around). Getting a legit 400 lb deadlift and 225 lb clean will certainly suffice for most high school kids, and he'll realize it the first time he hits someone. So will the other guy.

 

[Tenacious E]

That's not an unusual imbalance between bench / squat / deadlift for teens. Please ensure he's achieving proper depth in the squat, which would consist of the femurs going parallel or deeper at the bottom of the squat.

Deadlift with a barbell instead of a hexbar if you can - it becomes more difficult to keep the lumbar stable with a hexbar. Purists also don't consider it a real deadlift due to the anatomically advantageous position you have at the beginning, but I'm more concerned with him not injuring himself than some sort of shaming.

I'm no leaping drill expert. I'd be hesistant to do anything that restricted my leg movement / spacing like a hexbar, but what yellow suggested above doesn't appear to be too dangerous under the correct conditions (stable landing surface, no one else around). Getting a legit 400 lb deadlift and 225 lb clean will certainly suffice for most high school kids, and he'll realize it the first time he hits someone. So will the other guy.

After 53 days his bench is now 210 after starting at 175. Kind of stalled for a week or so with an increased schedule during the playoffs and my own work/injuries but 205 a week ago so we’re back on the upswing. Weight up to about 156 so that is a slower climb than strength but now that football is over and we get rocking on legs twice a week that should increase...

 

[Monzon]

After 53 days his bench is now 210 after starting at 175. Kind of stalled for a week or so with an increased schedule during the playoffs and my own work/injuries but 205 a week ago so we’re back on the upswing. Weight up to about 156 so that is a slower climb than strength but once we get rocking on legs twice a week that should increase...

Couple of things - don't let him get too discouraged about his bench stalling. At 156 lbs a legit 4-6 rep 210 bench (touches chest, does not bounce off of chest) is good, and from the number you posted his bench is more advanced than the other lifts. The bench will increase as his bodyweight goes up. A solid program which includes squatting and deadlift / cleaning will take some energy, and because his bench is more advanced the rate of progress will be slow. He'll need more food and sleep, plus new pants once his legs no longer fit in what he currently owns.

I saw the equipment you bought on that thread. Looks good. He should have a belt, and forgot to mention that. I use a bestbelts, but there's plenty of other solid choices. $100'ish. He'll want that once his squat gets north of 225 and deadlifts 275, which you said he was at with a hexbar. Speaking of accessory equipment, lifting shoes would be preferred. He'll feel the stability difference. I use Adipowers but Nike and a couple of other shoe manufacturers make their own. Another $150-200. Some people lift in Chuck Taylors because it has no sole / lift, which is ok for deadlifting but not really recommended for squatting. You don't need gloves, compression suits or much of anything else besides chalk at some point, once he starts requiring it for grip strength.

Do not neglect the standing overhead pressing, in part because its a great upper body movement and in part because it will helps stabilitize (strengthen) the shoulder. A lot of benching without overhead can over-emphasize the anterior delts. You may need to use 25's or even smaller on the bar to not hit your ceiling, which may require buying some extra smaller plates.

 

[Tenacious E]

Couple of things - don't let him get too discouraged about his bench stalling. At 156 lbs a legit 4-6 rep 210 bench (touches chest, does not bounce off of chest) is good, and from the number you posted his bench is more advanced than the other lifts. The bench will increase as his bodyweight goes up. A solid program which includes squatting and deadlift / cleaning will take some energy, and because his bench is more advanced the rate of progress will be slow. He'll need more food and sleep, plus new pants once his legs no longer fit in what he currently owns.

I saw the equipment you bought on that thread. Looks good. He should have a belt, and forgot to mention that. I use a bestbelts, but there's plenty of other solid choices. $100'ish. He'll want that once his squat gets north of 225 and deadlifts 275, which you said he was at with a hexbar. Speaking of accessory equipment, lifting shoes would be preferred. He'll feel the stability difference. I use Adipowers but Nike and a couple of other shoe manufacturers make their own. Another $150-200. Some people lift in Chuck Taylors because it has no sole / lift, which is ok for deadlifting but not really recommended for squatting. You don't need gloves, compression suits or much of anything else besides chalk at some point, once he starts requiring it for grip strength.

Do not neglect the standing overhead pressing, in part because its a great upper body movement and in part because it will helps stabilitize (strengthen) the shoulder. A lot of benching without overhead can over-emphasize the anterior delts. You may need to use 25's or even smaller on the bar to not hit your ceiling, which may require buying some extra smaller plates.

Awesome. Do you think a cables accessory is worth it? We have some resistance bands you can put in a door and pull on that we'll use on the power rack. I was thinking we could do that for lat pull downs, rows and such. It would be kind of a jerry rigged set up not as good as a dedicated set up with a stack, but I was sure how "not good enough" it would be be. Thanks again for all of your input. And today is a leg day. Squats, deadlifts, etc...

 

[Monzon]

Awesome. Do you think a cables accessory is worth it? We have some resistance bands you can put in a door and pull on that we'll use on the power rack. I was thinking we could do that for lat pull downs, rows and such. It would be kind of a jerry rigged set up not as good as a dedicated set up with a stack, but I was sure how "not good enough" it would be be. Thanks again for all of your input. And today is a leg day. Squats, deadlifts, etc...

Depends on your budget. I don't use cables for anything even when I am in a gym.

A pullup bar over a doorway will be far better for strength than a lat pulldown device, it's better for development of the stomach muscles due to stablizing the legs during the movement, and at a fraction of the price. Rows can be done with a barbell, easily. The bench and overhead press is good enough for the triceps, and if there's a desire for the kid to do 'arms' then I'd recommend lying tricep extensions (not to be confused with the skullcrusher) with an EZ curl bar.

 

[Tenacious E]

Depends on your budget. I don't use cables for anything even when I am in a gym.

A pullup bar over a doorway will be far better for strength than a lat pulldown device, it's better for development of the stomach muscles due to stablizing the legs during the movement, and at a fraction of the price. Rows can be done with a barbell, easily. The bench and overhead press is good enough for the triceps, and if there's a desire for the kid to do 'arms' then I'd recommend lying tricep extensions (not to be confused with the skullcrusher) with an EZ curl bar.

Thanks we'll hold off. The power rack has a pull up bar so we'll be good. Thanks again for your willingness to dispense advice!

 

[Monzon]

BFS is pretty solid. Bottom line is he needs to eat like a horse. Not that I am recommending a dirty diet, but at his age he can eat almost anything. (Still should be getting 150-200% of his body weight of protein on workout days) power cleans and squats are a must. Wouldn’t get too carried away with bicep/tricep type of deal at his age. Start with heavy complex movements and a 5x5 program.

Did you mean consumption of grams of protein equal to 150-200% of bodyweight per lb or kg? The latter is a healthy maintenance diet (125 g midpoint), the former is a lot even when gaining weight (273 g midpoint) for a 156 lb kid.

 

[Tenacious E]

Couple of things - don't let him get too discouraged about his bench stalling. At 156 lbs a legit 4-6 rep 210 bench (touches chest, does not bounce off of chest) is good, and from the number you posted his bench is more advanced than the other lifts. The bench will increase as his bodyweight goes up. A solid program which includes squatting and deadlift / cleaning will take some energy, and because his bench is more advanced the rate of progress will be slow. He'll need more food and sleep, plus new pants once his legs no longer fit in what he currently owns.

I saw the equipment you bought on that thread. Looks good. He should have a belt, and forgot to mention that. I use a bestbelts, but there's plenty of other solid choices. $100'ish. He'll want that once his squat gets north of 225 and deadlifts 275, which you said he was at with a hexbar. Speaking of accessory equipment, lifting shoes would be preferred. He'll feel the stability difference. I use Adipowers but Nike and a couple of other shoe manufacturers make their own. Another $150-200. Some people lift in Chuck Taylors because it has no sole / lift, which is ok for deadlifting but not really recommended for squatting. You don't need gloves, compression suits or much of anything else besides chalk at some point, once he starts requiring it for grip strength.

Do not neglect the standing overhead pressing, in part because its a great upper body movement and in part because it will helps stabilitize (strengthen) the shoulder. A lot of benching without overhead can over-emphasize the anterior delts. You may need to use 25's or even smaller on the bar to not hit your ceiling, which may require buying some extra smaller plates.

Just updating because you provided such good info. We're 76 days in. He's up 13 pounds to 160 and he has put on no fat. Max deadlift was 305 last night (standard bar not the hex bar) and we're doing max bench/squat this week. He'll get at least 220 on the bench but we're shooting to get two plates up. Squat will probably be in that same range. Having our own power rack in the basement has been amazing!

 

[Tenacious E]

Just some of my thoughts.
1. Consider switching to an upper/lower body split. Isolating body parts doesn’t always work well for athletes and can cause early onset overuse injuries. For example, the biceps are already worked on back days, and the triceps and shoulders are used on chest days, etc. Multi-joint compound lifts are more functional and sport specific.

2. Olympic lifts (Snatch, Clean and Jerk) are great for power but not necessarily for quick muscle growth since most strength gains are from neural adaption rather than hypertrophy. Plus, your son needs the requisite knowledge of proper form to not get jacked up. There are other explosive lifts that don’t require as much skill, however. If you have the funds consider hiring a USAW Level 1 or 2 coach for a few sessions to teach him.

3. Nothing wrong with hypertropy bodybuilding style training if the current goal is hypertrophy. Strength comes from a combination of increased cross sectional area of the muscle (muscle size), rate coding (fire rate of a muscle fiber) and motor unit recruitment (amount of muscle fibers recruited). A bigger muscle absent other parameters can generate more force than a smaller one. More specific training, later, can make it more functional.

4. Initially, increase volume (sets x reps) rather than intensity (percentage of 1 rep max). When closer to competition flip it, (intensity goes up and volume goes down). Doing both is a recipe for CNS over training.

5. Be sure to also focus on the posterior chain, more specifically the hamstrings, for injury prevention. Lot of torn ACL’s occur when the quads are extremely strong and the hamstrings are weak.

*Lastly, remember that the body only adapts to the demands placed on it. Functional exercises are the best for athletes.

Question for you @Monzon @pink shizzle @ClarindaA's as a follow up...
We are on day 141. He's about 165 now. Max bench was 240 on the last max day. Every time he hits a new PR, we record it. His average daily gain rate fluctuates from as high as 1.11 pounds per day at the very beginning, to as low as .22 pounds per day, and seems to have settled into a cyclical pattern with an average of about .35 to .4 pounds per day, as shown in the graph below where time is on the y axis and pounds per day is on the x axis. How long do you think that is sustainable given a high degree of dedication to lifting and diet?

 

[ClarindaA's]

Question for you @Monzon @pink shizzle @ClarindaA's as a follow up...
We are on day 141. He's about 165 now. Max bench was 240 on the last max day. Every time he hits a new PR, we record it. His average daily gain rate fluctuates from as high as 1.11 pounds per day at the very beginning, to as low as .22 pounds per day, and seems to have settled into a cyclical pattern with an average of about .35 to .4 pounds per day, as shown in the graph below where time is on the y axis and pounds per day is on the x axis. How long do you think that is sustainable given a high degree of dedication to lifting and diet?

Depends on genetics and nutrition. You can play with lifting programs when you plateau too

 

[Tenacious E]

Depends on genetics and nutrition. You can play with lifting programs when you plateau too

If you looked at him, he looks quite a bit thicker than he did in September, but not overly so, partly because he's made gains in his legs and core. He does not have much fat and he's pretty ripped at this point, but I think he has another 25 pounds to go before you'd look at him and say "that dude is jacked." So with the eyeball test, he's got a ways to go I think before he's hit some kind of genetic threshold. Just wondering about the realistic pace getting there...

 

[ClarindaA's]

Newbie gains are the easiest and usually occur within the first year to two years of lifting. Best way for me to increase size was to get 2.5 grams of carbs and 2 grams of protein per pound of body weight. I kept my cardio to only the sprint 8 programs. I made mad natty gains. Still added some bodyfat, but it was easy to shed

 

[pink shizzle]

Question for you @Monzon @pink shizzle @ClarindaA's as a follow up...
We are on day 141. He's about 165 now. Max bench was 240 on the last max day. Every time he hits a new PR, we record it. His average daily gain rate fluctuates from as high as 1.11 pounds per day at the very beginning, to as low as .22 pounds per day, and seems to have settled into a cyclical pattern with an average of about .35 to .4 pounds per day, as shown in the graph below where time is on the y axis and pounds per day is on the x axis. How long do you think that is sustainable given a high degree of dedication to lifting and diet?

Genetics and diet will play a role, along with the program. In general, as he continues to engage in a strength program you will see less gains in strength and hypertrophy.

I think keeping track on a graph like you are is a good idea. Monzon will surely have a much better scientific explanation for all of this.

 

[Fluffles]

Question for you @Monzon @pink shizzle @ClarindaA's as a follow up...
We are on day 141. He's about 165 now. Max bench was 240 on the last max day. Every time he hits a new PR, we record it. His average daily gain rate fluctuates from as high as 1.11 pounds per day at the very beginning, to as low as .22 pounds per day, and seems to have settled into a cyclical pattern with an average of about .35 to .4 pounds per day, as shown in the graph below where time is on the y axis and pounds per day is on the x axis. How long do you think that is sustainable given a high degree of dedication to lifting and diet?

There a lot of variables involved that can be manipulated based on training goals and associated plateaus. The core training variables are sets, reps, load (as expressed in percentage of 1RM), and rest time between sets. Generally, the first rapid strength gains are from neural adaptations, which come quickly.

Think about the first time someone does a dumbbell bench press; usually, their form is all over the place and they are exceedingly weak but a few weeks later with practice they jump up quite a bit. Those gains are from the body’s ability to make adjustments based on kinesthetic (proprioception) learning, not much from hypertrophy. After a few months, gains are more a combination of increased ability to execute movement, neural adaptations, and hypertrophy.

The longer the training age (time spent lifting), the more the strength gains are from hypertrophy, which is also the slowest and most predicated on biological age, natural hormonal support, nutrition, and percentage of fast and slow twitch muscle fibers (genetics). If your son is still doing 4 sets of 4-6 reps, he is mostly operating within the ranges for strength gains and unless it is changed up he will top out relatively quickly once his body adjusts to the demands placed on it (SAID principle).

Try periodizing into the hypertrophy ranges of 3-5 sets for compound lifts of 8-12 reps using 65-85% of 1RM while resting 60-90 seconds between sets. Do so for about a 4-6 week mesocycle intermixing a strength week (microcycle) of 4-5 sets of 4-6 reps resting 2-3 minutes between sets to maintain his low repetition strength. Adjusting his exercise selection, incorporating a periodized routine, manipulating above training variables, and increasing caloric intake are effective ways to break through training plateaus that will occur at a higher frequency as the training age (how long they have been lifting) of a lifter increases.

This is a long way of saying, it depends but generally, gain rates slow as training age increases, but can still last a long time if the appropriate training variables are manipulated/maximized, associated training demands are varied, there is good nutritional support, and overtraining is minimized.

 

[Tenacious E]

There a lot of variables involved that can be manipulated based on training goals and associated plateaus. The core training variables are sets, reps, load (as expressed in percentage of 1RM), and rest time between sets. Generally, the first rapid strength gains are from neural adaptations, which come quickly.

Think about the first time someone does a dumbbell bench press; usually, their form is all over the place and they are exceedingly weak but a few weeks later with practice they jump up quite a bit. Those gains are from the body’s ability to make adjustments based on kinesthetic (proprioception) learning, not much from hypertrophy. After a few months, gains are more a combination of increased ability to execute movement, neural adaptations, and hypertrophy.

The longer the training age (time spent lifting), the more the strength gains are from hypertrophy, which is also the slowest and most predicated on biological age, natural hormonal support, nutrition, and percentage of fast and slow twitch muscle fibers (genetics). If your son is still doing 4 sets of 4-6 reps, he is mostly operating within the ranges for strength gains and unless it is changed up he will top out relatively quickly once his body adjusts to the demands placed on it (SAID principle).

Try periodizing into the hypertrophy ranges of 3-5 sets for compound lifts of 8-12 reps using 65-85% of 1RM while resting 60-90 seconds between sets. Do so for about a 4-6 week mesocycle intermixing a strength week (microcycle) of 4-5 sets of 4-6 reps resting 2-3 minutes between sets to maintain his low repetition strength. Adjusting his exercise selection, incorporating a periodized routine, manipulating above training variables, and increasing caloric intake are effective ways to break through training plateaus that will occur at a higher frequency as the training age (how long they have been lifting) of a lifter increases.

This is a long way of saying, it depends but generally, gain rates slow as training age increases, but can still last a long time if the appropriate training variables are manipulated/maximized, associated training demands are varied, there is good nutritional support, and overtraining is minimized.

Thanks Fluffles!

We typically do sets of 5 to 8 reps. On push day: 4 sets bench; 4 sets incline/decline (alternates); 4 sets flies; 4 sets shoulders; 4 sets tricep extensions

On pull day he does 4 sets cleans/deadlifts (alternates), then for chin ups he does as many as he can in 4 sets (about 25 first set, 17 second set, 13 third set, and 10 last set); 4 sets lat pulls; 4 sets seated pull (not sure of technical name); 4 sets shrugs; 4 sets bicep iso

Leg day he does: 4 sets squats; 4 sets bulgarian split squats; 4 sets jumping hex bar; 4 sets falling hamstring curls, and 4 sets calves.

then we have a rest day, and then start back up with push day again, and on and on it goes. Haven't really mixed up the reps too much yet, but will do so when he hits a plateau.

 

[Tenacious E]

Couple of things - don't let him get too discouraged about his bench stalling. At 156 lbs a legit 4-6 rep 210 bench (touches chest, does not bounce off of chest) is good, and from the number you posted his bench is more advanced than the other lifts. The bench will increase as his bodyweight goes up. A solid program which includes squatting and deadlift / cleaning will take some energy, and because his bench is more advanced the rate of progress will be slow. He'll need more food and sleep, plus new pants once his legs no longer fit in what he currently owns.

I saw the equipment you bought on that thread. Looks good. He should have a belt, and forgot to mention that. I use a bestbelts, but there's plenty of other solid choices. $100'ish. He'll want that once his squat gets north of 225 and deadlifts 275, which you said he was at with a hexbar. Speaking of accessory equipment, lifting shoes would be preferred. He'll feel the stability difference. I use Adipowers but Nike and a couple of other shoe manufacturers make their own. Another $150-200. Some people lift in Chuck Taylors because it has no sole / lift, which is ok for deadlifting but not really recommended for squatting. You don't need gloves, compression suits or much of anything else besides chalk at some point, once he starts requiring it for grip strength.

Do not neglect the standing overhead pressing, in part because its a great upper body movement and in part because it will helps stabilitize (strengthen) the shoulder. A lot of benching without overhead can over-emphasize the anterior delts. You may need to use 25's or even smaller on the bar to not hit your ceiling, which may require buying some extra smaller plates.

Yesterday was Day 202. He is still making good gains and is up to 170 now and starting to look the part of a linebacker. Thinking 180 by August is realistic. For pullups he alternates sets putting 50 pounds in a backpack and then using no backpack. With the backpack on he can get about 10 to 12, and upper 20s close to 30 with no backpack. We haven't gone for a PR for bench in a while but he hit 265 a few weeks ago so 270 at least probably 275 - he hit 10 reps of 215 on his first set the other night. I think he makes his goal of 300 by June... Squat is starting to take off. He's repping 245 for sets of 8 or so. Deadlift has come slower but is also starting to accelerate. Using the barbell rather than hex bar, and he's only at about 340 for a PR. Hoping for 400 by June... He is also doing cleans. csb - I just wanted to chronicle this more than anything.

 

[Tenacious E]

There a lot of variables involved that can be manipulated based on training goals and associated plateaus. The core training variables are sets, reps, load (as expressed in percentage of 1RM), and rest time between sets. Generally, the first rapid strength gains are from neural adaptations, which come quickly.

Think about the first time someone does a dumbbell bench press; usually, their form is all over the place and they are exceedingly weak but a few weeks later with practice they jump up quite a bit. Those gains are from the body’s ability to make adjustments based on kinesthetic (proprioception) learning, not much from hypertrophy. After a few months, gains are more a combination of increased ability to execute movement, neural adaptations, and hypertrophy.

The longer the training age (time spent lifting), the more the strength gains are from hypertrophy, which is also the slowest and most predicated on biological age, natural hormonal support, nutrition, and percentage of fast and slow twitch muscle fibers (genetics). If your son is still doing 4 sets of 4-6 reps, he is mostly operating within the ranges for strength gains and unless it is changed up he will top out relatively quickly once his body adjusts to the demands placed on it (SAID principle).

Try periodizing into the hypertrophy ranges of 3-5 sets for compound lifts of 8-12 reps using 65-85% of 1RM while resting 60-90 seconds between sets. Do so for about a 4-6 week mesocycle intermixing a strength week (microcycle) of 4-5 sets of 4-6 reps resting 2-3 minutes between sets to maintain his low repetition strength. Adjusting his exercise selection, incorporating a periodized routine, manipulating above training variables, and increasing caloric intake are effective ways to break through training plateaus that will occur at a higher frequency as the training age (how long they have been lifting) of a lifter increases.

This is a long way of saying, it depends but generally, gain rates slow as training age increases, but can still last a long time if the appropriate training variables are manipulated/maximized, associated training demands are varied, there is good nutritional support, and overtraining is minimized.

so, he's stuck/struggling with increasing his squat. He's up to 170 for his weight. His bench is around 300, and he's tested out pretty well with leg explosiveness with a 31.5 vert and a 40 in the 4.6s (barely). But he can only max squat about 275 and he's having a hell of time improving on that. I was never very good at squats either and was very I quad dominant with strong calves. I think he gets pretty deep when he's squatting but is just not his lift. Thoughts on common reasons he'd be struggling with that?

 

[ClarindaA's]

so, he's stuck/struggling with increasing his squat. He's up to 170 for his weight. His bench is around 300, and he's tested out pretty well with leg explosiveness with a 31.5 vert and a 40 in the 4.6s (barely). But he can only max squat about 275 and he's having a hell of time improving on that. I was never very good at squats either and was very I quad dominant with strong calves. I think he gets pretty deep when he's squatting but is just not his lift. Thoughts on common reasons he'd be struggling with that?

Maybe have him do some glute/ham raises and hip thrusts to increase the strength in his weak spots. Helped me increase my strength by about 90 lbs in the span of three months

 

[West Duval Nole]

so, he's stuck/struggling with increasing his squat. He's up to 170 for his weight. His bench is around 300, and he's tested out pretty well with leg explosiveness with a 31.5 vert and a 40 in the 4.6s (barely). But he can only max squat about 275 and he's having a hell of time improving on that. I was never very good at squats either and was very I quad dominant with strong calves. I think he gets pretty deep when he's squatting but is just not his lift. Thoughts on common reasons he'd be struggling with that?

When he does leg days, have him go heavier weight (85-90% of max) with low reps (4 or less) where he is barely getting up the last 1 or 2 reps or needs help from his spotter on them. Try this for a few weeks and see if he makes progress.

 

[Monzon]

so, he's stuck/struggling with increasing his squat. He's up to 170 for his weight. His bench is around 300, and he's tested out pretty well with leg explosiveness with a 31.5 vert and a 40 in the 4.6s (barely). But he can only max squat about 275 and he's having a hell of time improving on that. I was never very good at squats either and was very I quad dominant with strong calves. I think he gets pretty deep when he's squatting but is just not his lift. Thoughts on common reasons he'd be struggling with that?

Eat more.
Sleep more.
Rest more between sets.

Those would be the first three things, without any video evidence to review. Is he squatting early in the workout? Is he squatting more than once a week?

 

[Tenacious E]

Eat more.
Sleep more.
Rest more between sets.

Those would be the first three things, without any video evidence to review. Is he squatting early in the workout? Is he squatting more than once a week?

we were on a push/pull/legs/rest split for about 9 months at home, but now he's lifting at school with the team and strength program and I've lost control/knowledge of what he's doing. I assume it's better than what we were doing at home. They stretch, run, and lift for about an hour to an hour a half M/T/W/Th at 6 in the morning.*

*Edited to add he has typically been doing a push and a pull to supplement on Friday, Saturday, or Sunday. Do you think he should do another leg day during the week?