What are the chances that both Murray bros are gone after this season?

MikeyHawk

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He’s averaging over 5 fouls/40 minutes. Only Big O and Mulvey average more. I guess if you don't think that's legit I won't argue with you. But generally when he fouls a lot, he is struggling other ways. He just still learning. If you cannot see that, let's just agree to disagree.
I don't follow a lot of other teams, but, does the second best player on most college teams come off the bench?
As noted, you think Kris is getting fewer minutes due to fouls?
 

ChiPackHawk

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It's a solid point, he does foul too much. No one was denying that.

But you seemed to be saying it was the primary reason.

Your point is valid but its also valid to say Fran probably doesn't view him as the 2nd best player even though statistically he is.

Fran also doesn't seem to have faith in playing small. Hes usually trended twoards playing bigger whenever possible.
I just want someone to give a reason why he doesn't get more minutes that doesn't have to do with supposed nepotism. No coach in his right mind doesn't want his five best on the court every minute possible. Does anyone really think Fran would jeopardize a multi-million dollar contract because he wants Connor to get more PT? That's just ludicrous. There is almost always an objective reason why. I just happen to believe it's because of fouls. If you disagree, fair enough. He may very well be playing out of position guarding the post, but someone has to. How he is getting the fouls is irrelevant to my stance. Next year hopefully we have a serviceable post defender and Kris can play the wing.
 
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littlez

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I just want someone to give a reason why he doesn't get more minutes that doesn't have to do with supposed nepotism. No coach in his right mind doesn't want his five best on the court every minute possible. Does anyone really think Fran would jeopardize a multi-million dollar contract because he wants Connor to get more PT? That's just ludicrous. There is almost always an objective reason why. I just happen to believe it's because of fouls. If you disagree, fair enough. He may very well be playing out of position guarding the post, but someone has to. How he is getting the fouls is irrelevant to my stance. Next year hopefully we have a serviceable post defender and Kris can play the wing.
Let's put it this way. What 2 current players have the highest ceiling on this team? I think 99% of NBA scouts would agree that's Keegan and Kris. I'd guess Patrick would be 3rd, he's 6-9, runs the court well, handles the ball reasonably well, etc. By pretty much all measurables, they are also the 2 highest rated players on the team currently. Your stance on fouls is ludicrous. Of course, as Kenyon said, the reason he is getting in foul trouble is because he's playing the 5. He's been a big guard or wing his ENTIRE life. I'm not sure how to spell this out any more for you. He's not going to get in foul trouble near as much if he played ANY other position, especially the 2-3-4. We do not have a servicable replacement for Rebraca at the moment, so Kris is doing what is best for the team. He's being a team player. Why is Connor in at the end of many games and not Kris? That's the million dollar question that only Fran can answer. It's not potential, it's not current talent, he's not a better shooter than Kris or a better rebounder. And based upon people saying Connor played "tough" the other day, what does that say about Kris's 8 rebounds? I'm done w/you. The foul thing is BS.
 

jonesy5960

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Let's put it this way. What 2 current players have the highest ceiling on this team? I think 99% of NBA scouts would agree that's Keegan and Kris. I'd guess Patrick would be 3rd, he's 6-9, runs the court well, handles the ball reasonably well, etc. By pretty much all measurables, they are also the 2 highest rated players on the team currently. Your stance on fouls is ludicrous. Of course, as Kenyon said, the reason he is getting in foul trouble is because he's playing the 5. He's been a big guard or wing his ENTIRE life. I'm not sure how to spell this out any more for you. He's not going to get in foul trouble near as much if he played ANY other position, especially the 2-3-4. We do not have a servicable replacement for Rebraca at the moment, so Kris is doing what is best for the team. He's being a team player. Why is Connor in at the end of many games and not Kris? That's the million dollar question that only Fran can answer. It's not potential, it's not current talent, he's not a better shooter than Kris or a better rebounder. And based upon people saying Connor played "tough" the other day, what does that say about Kris's 8 rebounds? I'm done w/you. The foul thing is BS.
Me too. He still argues that Cmac starting over Keegan was justified last year. It could have been Michael Jordan. Wouldn't matter.
 
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longliveCS40

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But the thread is about Murray’s going pro, correct?
keegan has the ability to create his own jump shot under pressure and convert, has the ability to do step back mid range, and ability to do turnaround jumpers, and convert, all under pressure.
if you’ve watched every minute you should be able to describe those 3 examples of Kris shooting under pressure and converting.

I suspect you are referring to Kris 3pt and FT% only and compared Keegan’s.

shooting wide open uncontested shots and the wide variety of Keegan’s arsenal are really 2 different skill sets, and why Keegan is a lotto pick and Kris may never get drafted
I was responding to your reply claiming Keegan shoots lean back jumpers and Kris didn't have that form. Your post was essentially saying Keegan was a better shooter which he isn't.

Keegan is clearly the more NBA ready player but that wasn't the discussion topic at hand.
 
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ChiPackHawk

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Me too. He still argues that Cmac starting over Keegan was justified last year. It could have been Michael Jordan. Wouldn't matter.
If you're talking about me - different team, different roles, and different Keegan. He got better. But by all means change your offense from the college player of the year to a freshman 75% of the people on this Board thought was a throw away scholarship. You guys act like this current version of Keegan walked into campus this way.
 
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WestCoastHawkI

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I think Kris comes back and we build the team around him. Fourth year in a row with the top scorer in the league and then after all of this success Fran still won't be able to translate the success over to recruiting.
 

jonesy5960

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If you're talking about me - different team, different roles, and different Keegan. He got better. But by all means change your offense from the college player of the year to a freshman 75% of the people on this Board thought was a throw away scholarship. You guys act like this current version of Keegan walked into campus this way.
Sigh....😕
 

jonesy5960

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I think Kris comes back and we build the team around him. Fourth year in a row with the top scorer in the league and then after all of this success Fran still won't be able to translate the success over to recruiting.
I think you're contradicting yourself. If that does happen, won't Fran have already successfully recruited the top scorers in the league? 🤔
 

ChiPackHawk

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Sigh....😕
Tell me, why wasn't Keegan offered by all of the blue bloods? I mean, he was as good in 2020 as he is now - Right? Must be a lot of stupid coaches and recruiters. That's your logic when it comes to his improvement. Kids get better, some at a very rapid rate. And since you're into bashing Fran all the time, he gets no credit here either? Only when kids don't get any better, then it's all his fault.

There isn't one person who thought Kris should have been playing extended minutes last year, yet based on your logic, because he has advanced to the level he is at now, he should have been playing then too. It just doesn't work that way. And here - bash me on this comment too. The Murray's obviously have a tremendous skill set and a willingness to work to get the most out of it. I'm glad they will be able to earn life changing money. Good for them as they seem like truly good kids. I'll just be careful to never offer any form of comment/opinion as it may offend several of you.

And my last comment on this thread, I have never once said Connor is a better player than Keegan. I have never said that Connor has a higher ceiling or more NBA potential than Keegan. I have said Connor's role on the team last year was important as it was key to much of Garza's success. You can be the inferior player but have a skill set that is needed at the time. Over the course of time there have been plenty of 6th men that were "better" than a starter, but filled a role for the team. Sometimes to create mismatches. Not just my words, but that of many actual experts.
 

littlez

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Tell me, why wasn't Keegan offered by all of the blue bloods? I mean, he was as good in 2020 as he is now - Right? Must be a lot of stupid coaches and recruiters. That's your logic when it comes to his improvement. Kids get better, some at a very rapid rate. And since you're into bashing Fran all the time, he gets no credit here either? Only when kids don't get any better, then it's all his fault.

There isn't one person who thought Kris should have been playing extended minutes last year, yet based on your logic, because he has advanced to the level he is at now, he should have been playing then too. It just doesn't work that way. And here - bash me on this comment too. The Murray's obviously have a tremendous skill set and a willingness to work to get the most out of it. I'm glad they will be able to earn life changing money. Good for them as they seem like truly good kids. I'll just be careful to never offer any form of comment/opinion as it may offend several of you.

And my last comment on this thread, I have never once said Connor is a better player than Keegan. I have never said that Connor has a higher ceiling or more NBA potential than Keegan. I have said Connor's role on the team last year was important as it was key to much of Garza's success. You can be the inferior player but have a skill set that is needed at the time. Over the course of time there have been plenty of 6th men that were "better" than a starter, but filled a role for the team. Sometimes to create mismatches. Not just my words, but that of many actual experts.
All credit for Fran to jumping in early in the process at prep school and snagging them. Now, if you don't think they would have been offered by other major schools in the process you are out of your mind. Fortunately they were hawk fans and committed. That was a big win for Fran. I can tell you that the blue bloods would have absolutely been offering.
 

jonesy5960

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Tell me, why wasn't Keegan offered by all of the blue bloods? I mean, he was as good in 2020 as he is now - Right? Must be a lot of stupid coaches and recruiters. That's your logic when it comes to his improvement. Kids get better, some at a very rapid rate. And since you're into bashing Fran all the time, he gets no credit here either? Only when kids don't get any better, then it's all his fault.

There isn't one person who thought Kris should have been playing extended minutes last year, yet based on your logic, because he has advanced to the level he is at now, he should have been playing then too. It just doesn't work that way. And here - bash me on this comment too. The Murray's obviously have a tremendous skill set and a willingness to work to get the most out of it. I'm glad they will be able to earn life changing money. Good for them as they seem like truly good kids. I'll just be careful to never offer any form of comment/opinion as it may offend several of you.

And my last comment on this thread, I have never once said Connor is a better player than Keegan. I have never said that Connor has a higher ceiling or more NBA potential than Keegan. I have said Connor's role on the team last year was important as it was key to much of Garza's success. You can be the inferior player but have a skill set that is needed at the time. Over the course of time there have been plenty of 6th men that were "better" than a starter, but filled a role for the team. Sometimes to create mismatches. Not just my words, but that of many actual experts.
2020? It was obvious to anyone with eyes and a brain that by the end of 2020/beginning of 2021 that Keegan's play was head and shoulders above everyone not named Luka or JoeW. Not one person thought Keegan should be playing extended minutes last year you say?

Thread 'Keegan Murray needs to start' https://iowa.forums.rivals.com/threads/keegan-murray-needs-to-start.343347/

Absolutely Fran should get credit for recruiting them, and I've said that he's shown a good eye for talent, but Keegan was B1G ready when he arrived.

Keegan didn't just arrive this season like you're suggesting. He was projected as a first round prospect before the season even started based upon how he played last year, not this year.

Thread 'How good has Keegan Murray been in conference play?' https://iowa.forums.rivals.com/threads/how-good-has-keegan-murray-been-in-conference-play.348958/

Cmac over Keegan last year? Ridiculous. Now I'm done.
 
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uihawk82

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Opinion, I think both will go.
Kris doesnt seem quite as silky smooth around the basket area as Keegan. Keegan just pivots and uses his body very easily to get off his shots. I would like to see Kris come back to Iowa for one more year and average 20+ pts and 10 rebounds a game, work on some stuff and then get a very high draft position.

Hell I might start watching the NBA again after about 25 years away from the game
 

RocknRollface

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A. If Kris is the 2nd best player on this team, he‘d be starting and getting > 20m a game.

B. Kris isn’t in the top 100 this year or top 125 next year. Kristian Lander, Omar Payne, Brandon Podziemski, Andre Curbelo., JaLen hood schifiano all BIG players are all listed ahead of Kris, even Xavier Foster..

is it that everyone thinks the exact same thing will happen to kris like it did for Keegan?
I feel like you've acknowledged the clear reality of him being the statistically second best player many times but maybe I'm confusing you with some else.

Either way, your premis is false because Kris is clearly the second best player on this team without either of your qualifiers being true.
 
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KcTo

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I understand wanting to get Kris more minutes at his natural position(s), but isn’t the goal and what we all want for Fran to have the best players on the court for as many minutes as possible? If our three best players are Keegan, Kris, and Patrick (which is absolutely the case), Pat isn’t strong enough to defend interior post, and you want to keep Keegan out of foul trouble, then what other option is there?

You can start Kris over Patrick, but then you have one of the Murray’s, fresh off of six minutes of game play, sliding over to the five to spell Rebraca when he comes out of the game, thereby likely making the foul situation an even bigger factor

It’s not ideal. If we had either Nunge or Robbins giving six more minutes per game effectively than Rebraca is, Kris would be logging heavier minutes at the 3 (with a few still at the five) and this wouldn’t be a conversation. I think Fran is managing the lineups the best he can, and to his credit, Iowa is drastically exceeding preseason expectations
I actually agree that Murrays are #1-2.

i think you discount what Rebraca brings to this team: very efficient scorer in post, plays much better D than PMac, and this team requires somebody in the post defense.

if you want to go Rebraca, Murray, PMac, Murray, im OK with that…either of the Murray’s can play D on the perimeter
 

KcTo

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I feel like you've acknowledged the clear reality of him being the statistically second best player many times but maybe I'm confusing you with some else.

Either way, your premis is false because Kris is clearly the second best player on this team without either of your qualifiers being true.
Kris is the 2nd best player, the reason he doesn’t play more is another topic.

just because he’s 2nd best player on a #8 seed team, doesn’t mean he’s going to the NBA next yr.
just because he’s Keegan’s brother and will get more minutes next yr doesn’t mean he’s going to be going to NBA.

he’s not in this years top 100
or next years top 120

listen, I hope he does make the giant leap, but I’m saying he hasn’t shown me the shooting skills to do so.
 
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KcTo

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I was responding to your reply claiming Keegan shoots lean back jumpers and Kris didn't have that form. Your post was essentially saying Keegan was a better shooter which he isn't.

Keegan is clearly the more NBA ready player but that wasn't the discussion topic at hand.
I’m sure you’ll agree that leading the nation in scoring results in the other team game planning how to keep their best defenders on his, fresh bodies, double teams, sagging to help.

teams also game plan vs JoBo, constantly having their perimeter people chasing him and switching to keep him from any cleam looks.

im sure you’ll agree that Kris, doesn’t have any of that attention, usually he just catches and shoots as he’s wide open.

that should be obvious to see the difference in defense and it’s effect on shooting %. Yes?
 

RocknRollface

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I just want someone to give a reason why he doesn't get more minutes that doesn't have to do with supposed nepotism. No coach in his right mind doesn't want his five best on the court every minute possible. Does anyone really think Fran would jeopardize a multi-million dollar contract because he wants Connor to get more PT? That's just ludicrous. There is almost always an objective reason why. I just happen to believe it's because of fouls. If you disagree, fair enough. He may very well be playing out of position guarding the post, but someone has to. How he is getting the fouls is irrelevant to my stance. Next year hopefully we have a serviceable post defender and Kris can play the wing.
I did.

I think trying to stay out of foul trouble surely plays into the thinking.

The conversation is really about Philip vs Kris at this point and Philip is not a bad player. The stuff about the McCaffreys is peripheral to me. We only have 3 guys playing the 4/5 so you couldn't really put them in other positions very often even if you wanted too.

I don't think Fran likes the idea of being small in a conference with so many bigs as his base look.

I think it would require changes to what he wants to do on offense.

I do think he's coming around to it more though.

Im ok with Philip starting but I want to see the trend continueing of Kris coming in sooner and both twins together to close out games assuming no foul trouble.
 

unoHawkeye

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I actually agree that Murrays are #1-2.

i think you discount what Rebraca brings to this team: very efficient scorer in post, plays much better D than PMac, and this team requires somebody in the post defense.

if you want to go Rebraca, Murray, PMac, Murray, im OK with that…either of the Murray’s can play D on the perimeter
I don’t discount Rebraca’s contributions to the team. He’s our best rebounder on a per-minute basis, an improving scorer/free throw shooter, and plays with a ton of effort. The reality is that he doesn’t have the size to effectively defend the Edey/Cockburn/Dickinson’s, and struggled athletically to slow down Wesson in the OSU game. Any team whose big man isn’t a focal point of the offense is one that Rebraca can be super successful against. Even Edey Filip did a great job against in the first Purdue game.

That said, when it comes time to play those teams with a dominant big, the best route is to (defensively) make it difficult to feed the post by fronting them with an athletic Murray and (offensively) pull them out to the perimeter where you will open things up down low, have driving opportunities which can put them in foul trouble, and likely get some open looks at three. Edit: now, if Iowa had Nunge or Robbins playing the five extensively, they would have the size to match up against most teams’ bigs for extensive minutes and wouldn’t have to rely on Kris, which was my point - not that Rebraca is doing a bad job

You can play PMac, Murray, Murray and Rebraca together, but then you also need Bohannon on the floor otherwise spacing will be a mess offensively. And for the foul-related reasons that I mentioned in my previous post, you can’t play this lineup together for extensive minutes because when Rebraca needs a breather, it’ll be one of the Murray’s sliding over to defend the 5 - which requires a ton of effort/energy against most Big Ten bigs
 
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RocknRollface

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All credit for Fran to jumping in early in the process at prep school and snagging them. Now, if you don't think they would have been offered by other major schools in the process you are out of your mind. Fortunately they were hawk fans and committed. That was a big win for Fran. I can tell you that the blue bloods would have absolutely been offering.
Correct.
 

KcTo

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I don’t discount Rebraca’s contributions to the team. He’s our best rebounder on a per-minute basis, an improving scorer/free throw shooter, and plays with a ton of effort. The reality is that he doesn’t have the size to effectively defend the Edey/Cockburn/Dickinson’s, and struggled athletically to slow down Wesson in the OSU game. Any team whose big man isn’t a focal point of the offense is one that Rebraca can be super successful against. Even Edey Filip did a great job against in the first Purdue game.

That said, when it comes time to play those teams with a dominant big, the best route is to (defensively) make it difficult to feed the post by fronting them with an athletic Murray and (offensively) pull them out to the perimeter where you will open things up down low, have driving opportunities which can put them in foul trouble, and likely get some open looks at three

You can play PMac, Murray, Murray and Rebraca together, but then you also need Bohannon on the floor otherwise spacing will be a mess offensively. And for the foul-related reasons that I mentioned in my previous post, you can’t play this lineup together for extensive minutes because when Rebraca needs a breather, it’ll be one of the Murray’s sliding over to defend the 5 - which requires a ton of effort/energy against most Big Ten bigs
We agree Rebraca is effective on offense, yet limited, and his defense is as good as he can do, but a minus vs various post players.

keegan, kris, PMac can all shoot 3, regardless of PG, I dont see the spacing issue you do

murrays are both really good at help D, and sometimes when PMac is interested late he will help too.

ogundele can give you at minimum 8 minutes a game ,, so Iowa could go small for a few minutes each half and nit expose Murray’s too much to fouls
 
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unoHawkeye

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We agree Rebraca is effective on offense, yet limited, and his defense is as good as he can do, but a minus vs various post players.

keegan, kris, PMac can all shoot 3, regardless of PG, I dont see the spacing issue you do

murrays are both really good at help D, and sometimes when PMac is interested late he will help too.

ogundele can give you at minimum 8 minutes a game ,, so Iowa could go small for a few minutes each half and nit expose Murray’s too much to fouls
Pat is a 31% three point shooter. Kris and Keegan are both capable three point shooters, but their bread and butter is getting into the lane. Kris only averages just over three attempts per game, and Keegan under five. If you’re an opposing defense and you have three slash-first players in Kris/Keegan/Pat shooting a bunch of threes because you have sagged off, then I think that’s a win for the D. Make Iowa beat you from deep. It’s not something that we’ve done with much success this year
 
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KcTo

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Pat is a 31% three point shooter. Kris and Keegan are both capable three point shooters, but their bread and butter is getting into the lane. Kris only averages just over three attempts per game, and Keegan under five. If you’re an opposing defense and you have three slash-first players in Kris/Keegan/Pat shooting a bunch of threes because you have sagged off, then I think that’s a win for the D. Make Iowa beat you from deep. It’s not something that we’ve done with much success this year
Pat is a 31% three point shooter. Kris and Keegan are both capable three point shooters, but their bread and butter is getting into the lane. Kris only averages just over three attempts per game, and Keegan under five. If you’re an opposing defense and you have three slash-first players in Kris/Keegan/Pat shooting a bunch of threes because you have sagged off, then I think that’s a win for the D. Make Iowa beat you from deep. It’s not something that we’ve done with much success this year
Conf 3 pt% is 42% 32% and 33%, which nets out well on a PPP Standoint.
nobody is sagging off Keegan 42% and his slashes could well draw other defenders in help side leaving Kris and PMac for uncontested looks, same is true in reverse fir the other slashers , who are above avg passers
 

longliveCS40

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I’m sure you’ll agree that leading the nation in scoring results in the other team game planning how to keep their best defenders on his, fresh bodies, double teams, sagging to help.

teams also game plan vs JoBo, constantly having their perimeter people chasing him and switching to keep him from any cleam looks.

im sure you’ll agree that Kris, doesn’t have any of that attention, usually he just catches and shoots as he’s wide open.

that should be obvious to see the difference in defense and it’s effect on shooting %. Yes?
None of those things have a bearing on who I think the better shooter is between Keegan and Kris.

If Keegan and Kris had a 3 point contest, I think Kris wins. If they have a free throw contest, I think Kris wins. I don't know how much more clearly I can state that I think Kris is a better shooter.
 

BVHawkeye

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Huh, what?
in case you haven’t noticed, Kris not good enough to start on a near bubble team….

How on earth do you think he can play in the NBA?
I don’t think he’s ready to go at all but does that mean he won’t.
Maybe he wants to improve his game in the g-league.
 

PHawkKenyon

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None of those things have a bearing on who I think the better shooter is between Keegan and Kris.

If Keegan and Kris had a 3 point contest, I think Kris wins. If they have a free throw contest, I think Kris wins. I don't know how much more clearly I can state that I think Kris is a better shooter.
I will say Kris is a better shooter. Biggest difference (aside from mins) between Keegan and Kris, is that Keegan believes he is THE BEST player in the building and Kris does at times. Every Batman has a Robin. Keegan’s “Robin” has been different teammates each game. It isn’t a lack of skill, it’s a mentality. Keegan’s biggest jump has been from the neck up. Lastly, we all need to leave the draft projection to the experts. Will be interesting for me to come back and share what information has been given to me pertaining to next level scouting. 🤔😉
 

Knothole Hawk

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If Keegan is projected in the top 10, he needs to go. That's a rare opportunity you have to take. Kris needs another year. Get evaluated, and find out what needs work. I liked seeing how Kris was used against Ohio State. If you're not going to start him, bring him in 5 or 6 minutes into both halves and let him play.
 

jonesy5960

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I will say Kris is a better shooter. Biggest difference (aside from mins) between Keegan and Kris, is that Keegan believes he is THE BEST player in the building and Kris does at times. Every Batman has a Robin. Keegan’s “Robin” has been different teammates each game. It isn’t a lack of skill, it’s a mentality. Keegan’s biggest jump has been from the neck up. Lastly, we all need to leave the draft projection to the experts. Will be interesting for me to come back and share what information has been given to me pertaining to next level scouting. 🤔😉
Oh to be a fly on the wall...
 

KcTo

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keegan w dribble basket attach, set back contested jumper

very difficult to stop that step back -Hummel

love to see Kris do that, but we’ve not seen that , yet