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When truly grading Iowa under Brands, numbers don't lie

Don't forget though that Iowa was victim of a negative marketing strategy by other programs and it limited Iowas's recruiting for a few years. That's just not fair! :D:D:D

re negative marketing-----It isnt that it is not "fair" but it is really SCUMMY.... you seem ok with it so good for you. (I am not surprised) Does that make you a scumbag? Asking for a friend.

Kinda like paying family for recruits. It MAY be legal but it sure is scummy..... but you are good with it.... good for you scumbag.
 
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That graphic actually helps Brands. The 8th place shows the status of Iowa and what he inherited from Zalesky. His 10 year average after that drops to 2.6. Also, JRob definitely deserves props. What he did at Minnesota puts him on a very short list of Head Coaches.

No doubt, JRob was an excellent wrestling coach. Cherry picking his best 10 year run isn't comparing apples to apples with the other two, however.

What J did was truly a shame and disappointing to me as a fan of the sport.
 
re negative marketing-----It isnt that it is not "fair" but it is really SCUMMY.... you seem ok with it so good for you. (I am not surprised) Does that make you a scumbag? Asking for a friend.

Kinda like paying family for recruits. It MAY be legal but it sure is scummy..... but you are good with it.... good for you scumbag.
I don't care what teams feel the need to do while recruiting. IMO negative recruiting is a poor strategy. I think coaches are always better to sell themselves and the positives at their University but I guess that's up to each set of coaches. You sound like a fool making excuses and implying all the teams in the NCAA were negative recruiting against Iowa and this set them back. Keep wearing that tinfoil hat and blaming other people it's at least entertaining to read!
 
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Another way to view it is that even if you remove PSU from the equation, from 2011 forward the schools with National Titles would be:

tOSU: 3
OSU: 2
Minn: 2
Cornell: 1
Iowa: 0

And that isn’t nearly as impressive.

But, it wouldn't work that way. Remove PSU wrestlers from those brackets and things most likely go quite differently at several weights.

Just one season of examples: Remove Matt Brown from the 2015 semis and there is a strong possibility Evans makes the Finals and maybe even wins it all. Brooks doesn't lose to Stauffer because McCutcheon wouldn't have upset him in the 2nd round. Burak wouldn't have lost to McIntosh to make the consi semis. Gilman gets bonus pts in the 2nd round instead of a close win over Conaway.....

Simply put, without PSU, those teams don't automatically evenly step up one placement.
 
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I could careless if that's what teams feels the need to do. IMO it's a poor strategy. I think you are always better to sell yourself and the positives at your University but I guess that's up to each set of coaches. You sound like a fool making excuses and implying all the teams in the NCAA were negative recruiting against Iowa and this set them back. Keep wearing that tinfoil hat and blaming other people it's at least entertaining to read!

Sort of like when people use "dominate" instead of "dominant", the phrase is, "could NOT care less". Otherwise, you are telling people that you actually do care, by saying that the amount of care can be decreased.
 
I don't care what teams feel the need to do while recruiting. IMO negative recruiting is a poor strategy. I think coaches are always better to sell themselves and the positives at their University but I guess that's up to each set of coaches. You sound like a fool making excuses and implying all the teams in the NCAA were negative recruiting against Iowa and this set them back. Keep wearing that tinfoil hat and blaming other people it's at least entertaining to read!

Personal and professional standards make me a tin foil hat guy. Riiiiiiiggghht. Ok scumbag, you are entitled to your opinion.

p>
 
I don't care what teams feel the need to do while recruiting. !

Say whatever you need to?? So the ends justify the means huh?. Wow. I wonder if you have a criminal record. Do you Teach your kids that?. Or maybe you are a politician?.

No responsible parent would ever let their superstar kid spend 5 years with someone like you...a person who thinks character does not matter aka a scumbag. You would be a terrible recruiter.
 
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Say whatever you need to?? So the ends justify the means huh?. Wow. I wonder if you have a criminal record. Do you Teach your kids that?. Or maybe you are a politician?.

No responsible parent would ever let their superstar kid spend 5 years with someone like you...a person who thinks character does not matter aka a scumbag. You would be a terrible recruiter.
Bahaha! You are such a tool. I teach my kids to control the controllables. I have no control over what any of these coaches do so I don’t worry about. Do me a favor... next time I’m in Iowa and I stop at McDonald’s please don’t spit in my fries.
 
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I don't think it is a wrestling numbers thing I think it is a Club or prep school thing. By far more prep schools and wrestling clubs out east. Iowa is coming around in that respect with the Seabolt Academy and EIWC and such.
I tend to agree with that. Those things are all around, and only adding more. DT has one going in the State College area. Quentin Wright not too far from there. (Although the one Q is at may have been started before he came on board.)
 
Actually, it's fooling you. The population feeding the pool is the number to watch. 20 high school wrestlers in Montana do not equal 20 high school wrestlers in California.
The point was that just because PA's population is 4x that of Iowa doesn't mean there are 4x the number of wrestlers.
 
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But, it wouldn't work that way. Remove PSU wrestlers from those brackets and things most likely go quite differently at several weights.

Just one season of examples: Remove Matt Brown from the 2015 semis and there is a strong possibility Evans makes the Finals and maybe even wins it all. Brooks doesn't lose to Stauffer because McCutcheon wouldn't have upset him in the 2nd round. Burak wouldn't have lost to McIntosh to make the consi semis. Gilman gets bonus pts in the 2nd round instead of a close win over Conaway.....

Simply put, without PSU, those teams don't automatically evenly step up one placement.
True and good point. But "Maybe we would've won a title in one of those eleven years without Penn State" is damning with pretty faint praise.

My takeaway is we need to complain less about Penn State and focus on getting our own house in order.
 
Comparing 11 year NCAA:

JRob 1997-2006.............................3,2,2,3,1,1,2,8,5,2,1.............2.7 Mean

Gable/Zalesky 1997-2006.............1,1,1,1,1,2,4,8,2,7,4.............2.9 Mean

Brands 2007-2017..........................8,1,1,1,3,3,4,4,2,5,4.............3.3 Mean

JRob must have learned a lot at Iowa.
 
But, it wouldn't work that way. Remove PSU wrestlers from those brackets and things most likely go quite differently at several weights.

Just one season of examples: Remove Matt Brown from the 2015 semis and there is a strong possibility Evans makes the Finals and maybe even wins it all. Brooks doesn't lose to Stauffer because McCutcheon wouldn't have upset him in the 2nd round. Burak wouldn't have lost to McIntosh to make the consi semis. Gilman gets bonus pts in the 2nd round instead of a close win over Conaway.....

Simply put, without PSU, those teams don't automatically evenly step up one placement.
Which feeds into my position of don't count on others to do your dirty work for you. You want to win NCAA Team Titles, you have to take out the closest competition every chance you get.

Iowa hasn't done that in a long time, largely because they just weren't good enough.

We're good enough now, if healthy this year, no more excuses. Get it done.
 
Bahaha! You are such a tool. I teach my kids to control the controllables. I have no control over what any of these coaches do so I don’t worry about. Do me a favor... next time I’m in Iowa and I stop at McDonald’s please don’t spit in my fries.

Fries??? I dont know much about that but I assure you that I won't revive you after your heart attack.....but I doubt you have much heart .....scumbag.
 
Comparing 11 year NCAA:

JRob 1997-2006.............................3,2,2,3,1,1,2,8,5,2,1.............2.7 Mean

Gable/Zalesky 1997-2006.............1,1,1,1,1,2,4,8,2,7,4.............2.9 Mean

Brands 2007-2017..........................8,1,1,1,3,3,4,4,2,5,4.............3.3 Mean

11 years....how...specific. Almost as if it's cherry picked....
 
Fries??? I dont know much about that but I assure you that I won't revive you after your heart attack.....but I doubt you have much heart .....scumbag.
Thanks for the entertainment today. You definitely have some interesting morals. In one breath you say I’m a bad parent because I don’t care how coaches recruit. Then, in the next breath you say you would let someone die because they disagree with you. You have yourself a good rest of the weekend and watch out for that grease splatter when you put the fries down in the fryer.
 
True and good point. But "Maybe we would've won a title in one of those eleven years without Penn State" is damning with pretty faint praise.

My takeaway is we need to complain less about Penn State and focus on getting our own house in order.

I agree that complaining about PSU doesn’t help one bit and the focus should be inward. I just wanted to point out that doing so at Iowa is way different now than it was under Gable and would even be difficult for a 1993 Gable to do.

As good as Gable was I have no doubt he would have adapted today, but I still think the Iowa resources would keep him from passing PSU and tOSU and he would be in a dogfight every season. To me, the fact that the best coach in DI wrestling history would be truly hard pressed to keep up with those 2 shows how hard it is for Brands to do so.
 
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I agree that complaining about PSU doesn’t help one bit and the focus should be inward. I just wanted to point out that doing so at Iowa is way different now than it was under Gable and would even be difficult for a 1993 Gable to do.

As good as Gable was I have no idea he would have adapted today, but I still think the Iowa resources would keep him from passing PSU and tOSU and he would be in a dogfight every season. To me, the fact that the best coach in DI wrestling history would be truly hard pressed to keep up with those 2 shows how hard it is for Brands to do so.
Please keep in mind these are your thoughts, and because you believe in these hypotheticals does not make it so.

I could throw out some blockbuster hypotheticals of my own had Gable not retired when he did, but it would serve no purpose other than to refute yours, so why bother.

For whatever it's worth, I'm not trying to be argumentative, I just don't agree with much of your position on this matter. Free country and all.
 
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Please keep in mind these are your thoughts, and because you believe in these hypotheticals does not make it so.

I could throw out some blockbuster hypotheticals of my own had Gable not retired when he did, but it would serve no purpose other than to refute yours, so why bother.

Yep. That is why I say things like “to me” before I give my “opinion”. To be clear, I did say Gable is #1 and think he will stay there regardless of how Sanderson continues at PSU.

I just think PSU and tOSU are juggernaughts that today’s landscape makes it exceptionally hard for any other schools to keep up. I have no doubt that Gable would do as well as ANYONE could with Iowa today, but even he would have to revamp how he recruited and even how he trained his guys.
 
The point was that just because PA's population is 4x that of Iowa doesn't mean there are 4x the number of wrestlers.

But the larger point is that the size of the pool to pull the talent from matters ... a lot.

In a given population, there will be some kids who are brainiacs, some who are basketball players, some amotivated, etc. Some will have an aptitude for wrestling.

Even though Lichtenstein or Norway might have a few exceptional wrestlers, the odds of having more exceptional wrestlers is higher in more heavily populated countries like China, USA, Japan and Russia. They just need the culture and opportunity to show it.

Culture and opportunities matter too, of course. Both Iowa and PA have those, but with almost 4x the population, PA has a much larger pool to pull from.

CA is the biggest in terms of population. The wrestling culture doesn't really exist in some of the large cities (LA, SF, Oakland), like it does in Iowa or PA. But even so, CA is able to put out tons of top tier talent, and really has surpassed Iowa in terms of HS achievements.

CA is arguably 3rd along with NJ, behind PA and OH. It wouldn't surprise me if they take the top spot some day.
 
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The point was that just because PA's population is 4x that of Iowa doesn't mean there are 4x the number of wrestlers.
That's why most states have different classifications for schools. One school might have only 500 kids in it and another has 5,000. The odds are the larger the school the better the odds are they have better sports programs. If PA has about 4 times more wrestlers their odd are a little better they will have more outstanding wrestlers. Same with football. Florida has a better chance of producing more D1 players than Iowa or South Dakota??
 
I agree that complaining about PSU doesn’t help one bit and the focus should be inward. I just wanted to point out that doing so at Iowa is way different now than it was under Gable and would even be difficult for a 1993 Gable to do.

As good as Gable was I have no doubt he would have adapted today, but I still think the Iowa resources would keep him from passing PSU and tOSU and he would be in a dogfight every season. To me, the fact that the best coach in DI wrestling history would be truly hard pressed to keep up with those 2 shows how hard it is for Brands to do so.

Gable would have the money.
 
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Yep. That is why I say things like “to me” before I give my “opinion”. To be clear, I did say Gable is #1 and think he will stay there regardless of how Sanderson continues at PSU.

I just think PSU and tOSU are juggernaughts that today’s landscape makes it exceptionally hard for any other schools to keep up. I have no doubt that Gable would do as well as ANYONE could with Iowa today, but even he would have to revamp how he recruited and even how he trained his guys.
You actually said, “To me, the fact that the best coach in DI wrestling history would be truly hard pressed to keep up with those 2 shows how hard it is for Brands to do so.”

However, that is clearly not a fact. It is a guess you’ve made, based on pretty much no evidence. You have no idea how Gable would do in today’s environment.
 
But the larger point is that the size of the pool to pull the talent from matters ... a lot.

In a given population, there will be some kids who are brainiacs, some who are basketball players, some amotivated, etc. Some will have an aptitude for wrestling.

Even though Lichtenstein or Norway might have a few exceptional wrestlers, the odds of having more exceptional wrestlers is higher in more heavily populated countries like China, USA, Japan and Russia. They just need the culture and opportunity to show it.

Culture and opportunities matter too, of course. Both Iowa and PA have those, but with almost 4x the population, PA has a much larger pool to pull from.

CA is the biggest in terms of population. The wrestling culture doesn't really exist in some of the large cities (LA, SF, Oakland), like it does in Iowa or PA. But even so, CA is able to put out tons of top tier talent, and really has surpassed Iowa in terms of HS achievements.

CA is arguably 3rd along with NJ, behind PA and OH. It wouldn't surprise me if they take the top spot some day.
While I hear what you're saying, theoretically, let's use your example of China, USA, Japan and Russia, versus Norway. I'm gonna throw Finland and Sweden in, too, just because.

Country Population #Olympic Medals
Russia 144,000,000 116
USA 327,000,000 132
Japan 127,000,000 69
China 1,400,000,000 10
Norway 5,200,000 6
Finland 5,500,000 83
Sweden 10,000,000 86

Next, throwing LA, SF and Oakland out of CA, should allow us to throw Pittsburgh and Philadelphia, the two largest population centers in PA, out. There is very little wrestling there.

Bottom line is this is a much, much more complex issue than population. I think you're closer with culture and opportunity. Heck, look at the sorry state of U.S. soccer. We dwarf many of the countries we play, in population, but barely belong on the same field as them.
 
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Gable in todays environment is hard to even get a handle on. One of the things that made Gable so great was he was an innovator. Hr brought something new to the table and kids were drawn to him. If Gable were here and Sanderson and Ryan were here at the same time and they were bringing something new to the table, then it would be a heck of dog fight and just plain crazy exciting to be a wrestling fan.
 
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With all due respect, I don't think MSU is advocating just laying down. He's just pointing out that Brands is not lacking in anything.... except grabbing top 10 elite recruits.

So that is where Iowa needs to focus. Give Brands a Spencer Lee and, lo and behold... a potential 4 timer. Of course much of that credit goes to Lee. Just like much of Taylor, Retherford, Nolf, Nickal, Hall's etc. success comes from their own special talent, not some magical Cael fairy dust.

So given that, how can Iowa catch up getting top 10 guys from around the country? That is the $64K question. Greater outreach by Brands himself and a charm offensive by all the coaches would be a good place to start. A great ambassador like Lee helps. Getting the new wrestling facility and HWC well funded is important. If the ncaa is looking the other way on WC's creative finances to help current collegiate athletes with camp stipends and deferred income, then explore that too. The playing field needs to be level for the good of the sport.

I think Iowa is moving forward in most all these areas. Belatedly, but better late than never.

Brands has the coaching chops, and given support in the above areas, Iowa should be challenging for a title in the next year or two. Any talk of firing Brands is idiotic, imho.
With all due respect Spencer is winning four national.titles anywhere regardless of coach
 
You actually said, “To me, the fact that the best coach in DI wrestling history would be truly hard pressed to keep up with those 2 shows how hard it is for Brands to do so.”

However, that is clearly not a fact. It is a guess you’ve made, based on pretty much no evidence. You have no idea how Gable would do in today’s environment.

Agreed. Poor word usage. I started with “to me” but shouldn’t have used “the fact” and instead continued with “I believe”.

But, there is some solid evidence. PSU averaging 121+ over the past 9 seasons WOULD make it historically difficult for anyone to hang with them, let alone consistently beat them. Even tOSU is averaging just under 114 the past 3 years and and 106 over the past 5. Also, the current recruiting landscape disparity between local Iowa recruits vs. Penn and Ohio. Then add in Gable’s outdated “right guy” recruiting method and the amount of 1 specialized sport, fully developed recruits. Contrast that with the # of top ten recruits both schools have consistently landed with nearly all being at least 3x AA’s with a crazy amount of Finalists and Champs.

Again, none of that means Gable wouldn’t be successful and I do think he would have Iowa solidly above Brands. It’s just that the current PSU and tOSU teams are performing at a level that even Gable’s best 9, back when he was so far ahead of every other team, would be hard pressed to consistently win.
 
Gable's biggest asset was his ability to motivate and get the most out of each individual athlete. Their physical toughness and conditioning were 2nd to none but it was Iowa's mental toughness which separated them from the pack. What I find most appealing is his wrestlers seem to genuinely appreciate the heights he was able to help them attain. All may not have ended up on top of the podium but most got the best our of their ability and this was largely attributed to their coach pushing/motivating them during their years @ Iowa. You can feel the heartfelt respect Gable earned from all his former wrestlers. It was something special and still is when you see them together. IMO this is the biggest area when Tom and the staff fall short of Gable and his staffs. Loved me some JRob at Iowa and Minn. We lost a great figure in the sport with one lapse in judgement.
 
Also, one other key factor for Gable was his biggest competition was NOT in his own conference. Remember he dominated the big 10 even in years he didn’t win NCAA’s. Having your toughest competition be 2 teams, in conference, makes it even that much harder.
 
While I hear what you're saying, theoretically, let's use your example of China, USA, Japan and Russia, versus Norway. I'm gonna throw Finland and Sweden in, too, just because.

Country Population #Olympic Medals
Russia 144,000,000 116
USA 327,000,000 132
Japan 127,000,000 69
China 1,400,000,000 10
Norway 5,200,000 6
Finland 5,500,000 83
Sweden 10,000,000 86

Next, throwing LA, SF and Oakland out of CA, should allow us to throw Pittsburgh and Philadelphia, the two largest population centers in PA, out. There is very little wrestling there.

Bottom line is this is a much, much more complex issue than population. I think you're closer with culture and opportunity. Heck, look at the sorry state of U.S. soccer. We dwarf many of the countries we play, in population, but barely belong on the same field as them.
It is more complex than population, but population is also a factor.

I think I’ve said it before, but I think the simplest equation is population*popularity.

Population is important because it gives you a bigger pool of athletes to choose from and the more people you have, the better the chances are that there are top athletes to chose from.

Popularity is also a factor. Pennsylvania has great wrestling tradition and it is popular sport in the state (similar to Iowa). If the sport is popular, there is a greater chance that some of those top athletes will go out for the sport. When you have top athletes going out for wrestling, you’re going to have good wrestlers. This is why a state like CA is not as good as PA even with a bigger population. Also why China is not as good at wrestling.
 
It is more complex than population, but population is also a factor.

I think I’ve said it before, but I think the simplest equation is population*popularity.

Population is important because it gives you a bigger pool of athletes to choose from and the more people you have, the better the chances are that there are top athletes to chose from.

Popularity is also a factor. Pennsylvania has great wrestling tradition and it is popular sport in the state (similar to Iowa). If the sport is popular, there is a greater chance that some of those top athletes will go out for the sport. When you have top athletes going out for wrestling, you’re going to have good wrestlers. This is why a state like CA is not as good as PA even with a bigger population. Also why China is not as good at wrestling.
Yeah, I probably just lump popularity under culture or tradition.
 
There might be a debate about Gable v. Cael. But, Tom Ryan and tOSU over Gable is an absolute friggin joke. Don't even go there.

To be clear, I in now way was arguing Ryan over a new age Gable and Iowa. But, I do feel they would be super competitive and the battle would NOT be just with PSU.

The current tOSU product is legit and Ryan’s latest recruiting class definitely leans towards indicating they will be for some time.
 
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To be clear, I in now way was arguing Ryan over a new age Gable and Iowa. But, I do feel they would be super competitive and the battle would NOT be just with PSU.

The current tOSU product is legit and Ryan’s latest recruiting class definitely leans towards indicating they will be for some time.

They have good athlete/wrestlers. I'm very unimpressed with Ryan however.
 
re negative marketing-----It isnt that it is not "fair" but it is really SCUMMY.... you seem ok with it so good for you. (I am not surprised) Does that make you a scumbag? Asking for a friend.

Kinda like paying family for recruits. It MAY be legal but it sure is scummy..... but you are good with it.... good for you scumbag.
Just wondering why it is that you post such nonsense on such a regular basis. I assume nonsense is your only skill.
 
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