Why all the talk about redshirting Lee/Warner next year...

[iowahawk24]

Help me understand all of the talk about redshirting everyone next year.

Why not run Lee and Warner out there with Sorenson and Stoll for one year together.

2017:
125 - Lee (TF)
133 - Laux (Sr)
141 - Turk (Rso)
149 - Sorenson (Sr)
157 - Kemerer (RSo)
165 - Marinelli (So)
174 - Young (RFr)
184 - Wilke (RSo)
197 - Warner (TF)
Hwt - Stoll (RJr)

How is this not a title contender team? Could have 10 qualifiers and seems like we would have the following finalists potentially:

Lee, Sorenson, Stoll

High AA possible wrestlers: Kemerer (likely top 4), Marinelli (top 6), Warner (not a strong weight)

Possible AA's: Turk?, Young

Just not sure why everyone assumes we have no shot and should just redshirt two studs.

 

[hawkssox1]

Help me understand all of the talk about redshirting everyone next year.

Why not run Lee and Warner out there with Sorenson and Stoll for one year together.

2017:
125 - Lee (TF)
133 - Laux (Sr)
141 - Turk (Rso)
149 - Sorenson (Sr)
157 - Kemerer (RSo)
165 - Marinelli (So)
174 - Young (RFr)
184 - Wilke (RSo)
197 - Warner (TF)
Hwt - Stoll (RJr)

How is this not a title contender team? Could have 10 qualifiers and seems like we would have the following finalists potentially:

Lee, Sorenson, Stoll

High AA possible wrestlers: Kemerer (likely top 4), Marinelli (top 6), Warner (not a strong weight)

Possible AA's: Turk?, Young

Just not sure why everyone assumes we have no shot and should just redshirt two studs.

What talk?

 

[iowahawk24]

What talk?

It's all over every thread about how next year we have no shot, we will redshirt Lee and Warner and Murin. I guess I dont get that with Sorenson being a senior and a near lock for the finals.

 

[hawkssox1]

It's all over every thread about how next year we have no shot, we will redshirt Lee and Warner and Murin. I guess I dont get that with Sorenson being a senior and a near lock for the finals.

Not seeing it.

 

[Sandor45]

Help me understand all of the talk about redshirting everyone next year.

Why not run Lee and Warner out there with Sorenson and Stoll for one year together.

2017:
125 - Lee (TF)
133 - Laux (Sr)
141 - Turk (Rso)
149 - Sorenson (Sr)
157 - Kemerer (RSo)
165 - Marinelli (So)
174 - Young (RFr)
184 - Wilke (RSo)
197 - Warner (TF)
Hwt - Stoll (RJr)

How is this not a title contender team? Could have 10 qualifiers and seems like we would have the following finalists potentially:

Lee, Sorenson, Stoll

High AA possible wrestlers: Kemerer (likely top 4), Marinelli (top 6), Warner (not a strong weight)

Possible AA's: Turk?, Young

Just not sure why everyone assumes we have no shot and should just redshirt two studs.

No question that team could contend for a title.
Couple of things tho that factor in to this not being for the best overall.
1) Don't want to make a practice of pulling kids shirts their true frosh year, we're not ISU
2) As good as Lee is, he will benefit a lot with a redshirt year to let his weight adjust fully to college 125. Iowa needs it's own 4x NCAA champ. Need to set him up so he can achieve that.
3) We want to keep Marinelli, Warner, Lee, Teasdale, Happel, and Murin together in a team for as long as possible. That gives us the best chance to win multiple team titles.

 

[Mattski]

I'd say mainly bc unlike some other programs we don't use redshirts for the team's benefit, we use them for the athlete's benefit. Tactically what you're suggesting might get us closer to a title next year, but it can also backfire in the development of quality young wrestlers and negatively effect their entire careers (arguably the Alex Tsirstis example).
I've always believed we'd rather have an athletes 5th yr senior season than his true freshman season.

 

[YoungGun07]

That team would contend for a title, but I don't think it would win a title. Good things come to those who wait...

 

[Big Fall]

Lee has already decided he's redshirting and I doubt that changes because he wants to give himself his best chance to win 4 titles. Brands has always said if the kid is not on board, they don't even consider. I don't totally disagree with your premise but I think redshirting is the right move. Next year may not be great in terms of team title chances but you sometimes have to sacrifice a year to restock effectively. PSU did it two years ago and it looks like it was absolutely the right move.

 

[24 so far]

No question that team could contend for a title.
Couple of things tho that factor in to this not being for the best overall.
1) Don't want to make a practice of pulling kids shirts their true frosh year, we're not ISU
2) As good as Lee is, he will benefit a lot with a redshirt year to let his weight adjust fully to college 125. Iowa needs it's own 4x NCAA champ. Need to set him up so he can ATTEMPT to achieve that.
3) We want to keep Marinelli, Warner, Lee, Teasdale, Happel, and Murin together in a team for as long as possible. That gives us the best chance to win multiple team titles.

FIFY
As good as Lee surely is, he'll need luck to win 4, just like everyone before him that have already ran the gauntlet.

 

[Sandor45]

FIFY
As good as Lee surely is, he'll need luck to win 4, just like everyone before him that have already ran the gauntlet.

outside of injury, I don't see anyone stopping him at 125. Fingers crossed for a healthy 5 years

 

[SPOONER]

No question that team could contend for a title.
Couple of things tho that factor in to this not being for the best overall.
1) Don't want to make a practice of pulling kids shirts their true frosh year, we're not ISU
2) As good as Lee is, he will benefit a lot with a redshirt year to let his weight adjust fully to college 125. Iowa needs it's own 4x NCAA champ. Need to set him up so he can achieve that.
3) We want to keep Marinelli, Warner, Lee, Teasdale, Happel, and Murin together in a team for as long as possible. That gives us the best chance to win multiple team titles.

I don't want to derail the thread but I don't agree with your #2. Iowa doesn't "need" a 4 time champ. It matters none. Iowa needs NCAA team titles. I do fully support Lee's goal of 4 titles and agree a redshirt year is the best way to get there.

 

[iowahawk24]

The other problem is if you have an injury after the redshirt year, the athlete has no ability to get a medical redshirt so that is another benefit of not redshirting the elite P4P top 10 type athletes.

 

[Eastern HWT]

30 years ago - wrestlers were not ready coming out of high school, athletes were not ready to complete with college juniors, seniors, & 5th years. However, today athletes come out of high school and are ready to knock off multiple AAs and National Champions.

Look at your four time Champs:
1. Pat Smith - Outstanding tournament as a true frosh with a barely .500 record, in a weight not strong, Red-Shirts and wins three straight after to become 1st four timer.

2. Cael Sanderson - Red-Shirts and blitzes to four in a row (no major injuries)

3. Kyle Dake - 4 in a row with no Shirt, impressive but no injuries.

4. Logan Steiber - 4 mainly healthy years - 4 titles.... brother could have been as good but got beat up by injuries.

All were lucky with the injury bug.

Today's wrestling has changed and is funky with rolling and twisting arms, legs, ankles, feet. More injuries occur now then in the 80's, 90's, even ten years ago.

I watched Nebraska's HWT last night funk rolling on the kid from Lehigh. Twisting everything to either get or not give up the takedown. Funk has made wrestling exciting but look at the multiple Champs over the last 5 years, they had a shot to finish immediately as to not get funked, therefore a lower risk of injury.

Gilmen says it best " They try to hurt me, take out my legs" That is what counters to single leg shots has be come.

Sorry just wanted to give perspective------ If the kid is ready to go - he should go! The red-shirt use to be known as a medical red-shirt and some of these studs may need to take one later in his career and most already wasted (I mean used) it, and there goes your new 4x champ. I mean 3x champ

 

[andegre]

30 years ago - wrestlers were not ready coming out of high school, athletes were not ready to complete with college juniors, seniors, & 5th years. However, today athletes come out of high school and are ready to knock off multiple AAs and National Champions.

Look at your four time Champs:
1. Pat Smith - Outstanding tournament as a true frosh with a barely .500 record, in a weight not strong, Red-Shirts and wins three straight after to become 1st four timer.

2. Cael Sanderson - Red-Shirts and blitzes to four in a row (no major injuries)

3. Kyle Dake - 4 in a row with no Shirt, impressive but no injuries.

4. Logan Steiber - 4 mainly healthy years - 4 titles.... brother could have been as good but got beat up by injuries.

All were lucky with the injury bug.

Today's wrestling has changed and is funky with rolling and twisting arms, legs, ankles, feet. More injuries occur now then in the 80's, 90's, even ten years ago.

I watched Nebraska's HWT last night funk rolling on the kid from Lehigh. Twisting everything to either get or not give up the takedown. Funk has made wrestling exciting but look at the multiple Champs over the last 5 years, they had a shot to finish immediately as to not get funked, therefore a lower risk of injury.

Gilmen says it best " They try to hurt me, take out my legs" That is what counters to single leg shots has be come.

Sorry just wanted to give perspective------ If the kid is ready to go - he should go! The red-shirt use to be known as a medical red-shirt and some of these studs may need to take one later in his career and most already wasted (I mean used) it, and there goes your new 4x champ. I mean 3x champ

Did Dake "redshirt" (aka wrestle for a club team ala Kolodzik) or did he wrestle immediately after his senior year of high school?

 

[Eastern HWT]

He won NCCA in 2010 and his bio has graduating high school in 2009 - NO Grey Shirt

Prior to Cornell: A six-time letter winner at Lansing HS, Dake was a two-time New York State champion and three-time finalist. He served as his team captain for four seasons, and received the 2009 team sportsmanship award. Dake was also Male Athlete of the Year in 2007. He was a 2008 junior World Team member, and Dake is a three-time NHSCA Wrestling Champion. Dake was also a two-time letter winner in baseball playing second base and catching. He was a sprinter in track where he lettered. Dake was student council vice-president from 2008-09.

 

[horraybeer]

Did Dake "redshirt" (aka wrestle for a club team ala Kolodzik) or did he wrestle immediately after his senior year of high school?

no grey shirt for Dake

 

[el dub]

I'd say mainly bc unlike some other programs we don't use redshirts for the team's benefit, we use them for the athlete's benefit. Tactically what you're suggesting might get us closer to a title next year, but it can also backfire in the development of quality young wrestlers and negatively effect their entire careers (arguably the Alex Tsirstis example).
I've always believed we'd rather have an athletes 5th yr senior season than his true freshman season.

Screw your alex tsirtsis drivel.

 

[Stanley75]

We have to optimize our studs. To stay in the top tier. Wrestling is comprised of individuals with individual goals. The teams goal is to get individual champions as many and as often as possible. Red shirting is merely using the rules to help the individual develop.

If we send true freshman into a buzz saw, individual performance would be hampered in most cases. Red shirting is merely managing the potential most wrestlers have. Undefeated NC are hard to come by. True freshman Undefeated NC are so rare. Red shirt Undefeated NC are more common but still rare. I am sure TnT know this, that is why they always Red Shirt. Its good for the team and the individual.

Iowa needs a NC badly it has been a few years now.

AM vs Imar is a great example of why He needs to red shirt. AM as good as he is has little chance of beating Imar or some of the other top 165 lbers. Next year he has a much better chance.

 

[255]

Look at your four time Champs:
1. Pat Smith - Outstanding tournament as a true frosh with a barely .500 record, in a weight not strong, Red-Shirts and wins three straight after to become 1st four timer.

Smith was 122-4-2 career in college with 85 bonus point wins. I don't remember a .500 year. I remember a couple of early losses but he was well past .500. did his red shirt because Okie was on sanctions. Smith gets a bad rap even after going 89 in a row.

 

[WEH8ST8HAWK]

No question that team could contend for a title.
Couple of things tho that factor in to this not being for the best overall.
1) Don't want to make a practice of pulling kids shirts their true frosh year, we're not ISU
2) As good as Lee is, he will benefit a lot with a redshirt year to let his weight adjust fully to college 125. Iowa needs it's own 4x NCAA champ. Need to set him up so he can achieve that.
3) We want to keep Marinelli, Warner, Lee, Teasdale, Happel, and Murin together in a team for as long as possible. That gives us the best chance to win multiple team titles.

I would add Kemerer and Young to that list of guys to keep together. If we land Brands and Sasso like has been stated, we are set except 184 and Heavyweight. A guy named Gable would sure fit in nicely.

 

[herkyhawk00]

Help me understand all of the talk about redshirting everyone next year.

Why not run Lee and Warner out there with Sorenson and Stoll for one year together.

2017:
125 - Lee (TF)
133 - Laux (Sr)
141 - Turk (Rso)
149 - Sorenson (Sr)
157 - Kemerer (RSo)
165 - Marinelli (So)
174 - Young (RFr)
184 - Wilke (RSo)
197 - Warner (TF)
Hwt - Stoll (RJr)

How is this not a title contender team? Could have 10 qualifiers and seems like we would have the following finalists potentially:

Lee, Sorenson, Stoll

High AA possible wrestlers: Kemerer (likely top 4), Marinelli (top 6), Warner (not a strong weight)

Possible AA's: Turk?, Young

Just not sure why everyone assumes we have no shot and should just redshirt two studs.

Unless he is overmatched, which I highly doubt, you don't RS a two time Jr. World Champion.

 

[Mattski]

Screw your alex tsirtsis drivel.

I assume you're being sarcastic? If not you should try and read better.
I put the word arguably there for a reason.

 

[YoungGun07]

You do if he wants to redshirt, and might not be full size for his weight class.

 

[sabula]

Unless he is overmatched, which I highly doubt, you don't RS a two time Jr. World Champion.

Mark Hall disagrees.

 

[SPOONER]

Unless he is overmatched, which I highly doubt, you don't RS a two time Jr. World Champion.

Lol funny how you know more than the two time junior world champion...

You most certainly do if that's what he wants. Especially when he needs the year to grow into 125. He would be small out there next year though I'm sure good enough to place.

 

[LaxHawk174]

Lol funny how you know more than the two time junior world champion...

You most certainly do if that's what he wants. Especially when he need the year to grow into 125. He would be small out there next year though I'm sure good enough to place.

Lee is good enough to make the finals and even win next year, but size may be an issue. I think after the RS year, I don't see anybody stopping him, he'll be a little tank after a year of developing and lifting in a college program.

 

[Azchief32]

Unless he is overmatched, which I highly doubt, you don't RS a two time Jr. World Champion.

And a Cadet World title don't forget.

 

[24 so far]

Smith was 122-4-2 career in college with 85 bonus point wins. I don't remember a .500 year. I remember a couple of early losses but he was well past .500. did his red shirt because Okie was on sanctions. Smith gets a bad rap even after going 89 in a row.

Probably thinking of Mark Branch, who was right around .500 entering NCAA's when he won his first.

Edit Addition: Branch was unseeded and 8-9 entering the 1994 NCAA's. Majored 2nd seed Chad Renner in the 1st round and kept Uncle Mo going from there, all the way to the bank. 4 Time NCAA Finalist, 2x Champ. Good run.

 

[SPOONER]

Probably thinking of Mark Branch, who was right around .500 entering NCAA's when he won his first.

Edit Addition: Branch was unseeded and 8-9 entering the 1994 NCAA's. Majored 2nd seed Chad Renner in the 1st round and kept Uncle Mo going from there, all the way to the bank. 4 Time NCAA Finalist, 2x Champ. Good run.

Gotta be honest, was thinking the same thing about Smith at .500. Did Smith have a poor record unattached as a true frosh that doesn't apply to his college record.

 

[24 so far]

Gotta be honest, was thinking the same thing about Smith at .500. Did Smith have a poor record unattached as a true frosh that doesn't apply to his college record.

I think he won as a true freshman and redshirted his Junior year, but not certain.

Maybe you're thinking of his brother Mark, who was always overrated due to the fact he was a Smith.

 

[SPOONER]

I think he won as a true freshman and redshirted his Junior year, but not certain.

Maybe you're thinking of his brother Mark, who was always overrated due to the fact he was a Smith.

My memory sucks. I will admit this. But I have always thought he initially redshirted as a frosh and struggled early but turned it on so they pulled his shirt.

But again...my memory of 30 years ago isn't great.

 

[24 so far]

My memory sucks. I will admit this. But I have always thought he initially redshirted as a frosh and struggled early but turned it on so they pulled his shirt.

But again...my memory of 30 years ago isn't great.

Mine isn't the greatest either, but I saw most of this stuff live and still don't remember a lot of it! Partied a bit at Nationals "back in the day" , many times with Iowa and yes, even some Iowa State all-timers, and sometimes those two groups together. Great times indeed. I was lucky to know some people who know some people.....................

Anyway, my guess is Pat Smith probably would not have ever redshirted, but Oklahoma State was banned from the NCAA tournament in 1993, after his Junior year (in Ames, the year Mcllravy took out Abas as a true freshman). So he took the ban year off and won in the next year against Sean Bormet.