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Why can't the B12 learn how to play defense?

HawktimusPrime

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Mar 23, 2015
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What exactly is so difficult about hiring good DC's and coming up with a defense that can win the conference for you?

TCU was onto something, but even they have had their insane high scoring games, much more often that what they should have.

Seriously, defense is what wins championships. Why doesn't the B12 understand that?
 
Maybe talent is more concentrated on the offense side of the ball in those schools' normal recruiting grounds, or other conferences are poaching those grounds for the primo defensive talent the B12 schools normally got. Maybe hiring the best DC's has become tougher too given their reputation nowadays, so head coaches have placed an emphasis not on improving defensively but in keeping up with Jones' offensive firepower.

Probably a lot of reasons involved there. But when guys like Patterson and Stoops can't put out even a passable defense given their history and backgrounds...there's a big big problem through the rest of the conference cause we know the others aren't going to be consistently good on that side of the ball.

That PU/TTU game last fall musta made your average old fart OU fan sick to their stomach...it was brutal to watch...and OU WON.
 
Off the top of my head, there are probably a lot of issues at play. For one, it's hard to tease out effects of good offense versus bad defense. Football Study Hall had a good article on this from a few weeks back: http://www.footballstudyhall.com/2017/2/10/14570536/are-big-12-defenses-underrated

Plus, it's important to control for tempo. Big 12 offenses tend to run more plays than offenses in other major conferences, so it's important to look at points/yards per play/possession rather than game so that you can get a better handle on actual efficiency. And, it would at least make logical sense (I don't have any data to back this up, though) that it would be difficult for a defense to maintain good coverage or a strong pass rush after being on the field for 70+ plays against a high-tempo spread offense.

Not defending Big 12 defenses, per se - they are certainly not the cream of the crop in the country. Personally, I don't really enjoy watching the style of offense that a lot of those teams run. I just think it's more difficult than a lot of people think to determine whether a team is "good" or "bad" on defense without fully taking into account opponent's offensive strength, tempo, etc.
 
Nebby thought their "blackshirts" could play real defense back in the day....turns out, they couldn't. They just looked better by being average in a league of garbage.
 
yeah - the "black shirt" thing needs to be retired by Neb (although I guess it's mostly their fans that throw it out there. - it's kinda like Miss Piggy claiming she's a Super Model.
 
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Well them out please they run in there up-tempo offense is is an incredible pressure point on the defense with that said a gazillion things come to mine but I'm just gonna go with a couple .....

Be careful what you wish for...the style of offense we Run lends itself to good defense and vice versa and don't think for a second they haven't had plenty of defensive coaching talent over there in the big 12 and some pretty talented players at that!

It's funny, it fits right up against what I say on here all the time... fans don't really have a clue how difficult it is to coach!
 
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Chicken or the egg.

Is Big 10/SEC defense good or is big 10/SEC offense bad? Is Big 12/Pac12 offense good or is Big 12/Pac12 defense bad?
 
Say what?

I think it really comes down to three main things:

1. Their defenses aren't as bad as some think when adjusted for tempo. For example, West Virginia's defense ranked ahead of Iowa's last year in efficiency (according to ESPN, although they say this is adjusted for SOS).

2. Their defensive players simply aren't as good as the players in the Big Ten or SEC.

3. They have to play against better offenses than they have in the Big Ten or SEC.
 
I think it really comes down to three main things:

1. Their defenses aren't as bad as some think when adjusted for tempo. For example, West Virginia's defense ranked ahead of Iowa's last year in efficiency (according to ESPN, although they say this is adjusted for SOS).

2. Their defensive players simply aren't as good as the players in the Big Ten or SEC.

3. They have to play against better offenses than they have in the Big Ten or SEC.

This. Most people are too dense to realize that when an offense throws 55 times a game with a hurry-up offense there are going to be more points scored. Average Joe's simply look at the score to judge defenses.
 
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I have thought about this myself regarding ISU, im a hawk fan. If ISU more mirrored iowas style of play, pro style offense bend but don't break defense keep everything infront of you make you drive the length of the field. I believe they would be way more successful. Heres my thought process. For starters at isu are you going to go toe to toe recruiting vs. all the texas and oklahoma schools? NO. If you play a complete contrast to the rest of the league teams have to scheme and scout differently for you. Every other school in b12 runs the spread. Lastly know who you are, your not the most explosive athletic team in the conference nor are you going to win because of your homefield advantage. I kind of compare it to the basketball teams that slow the game down {wisconsin} that are a total different preparation than everyone else. to the original point it seems that b12 teams all went down the same philosophical path out score your opponent thats all that matters
 
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Well them out please they run in there up-tempo offense is is an incredible pressure point on the defense with that said a gazillion things come to mine but I'm just gonna go with a couple .....

Be careful what you wish for...the style of offense we Run lends itself to good defense and vice versa and don't think for a second they haven't had plenty of defensive coaching talent over there in the big 12 and some pretty talented players at that!

It's funny, it fits right up against what I say on here all the time... fans don't really have a clue how difficult it is to coach!

Thank God we have the one fan in the entire world that does have a clue. You must feel like a unicorn in a sea of donkeys.
 
Thank God we have the one fan in the entire world that does have a clue. You must feel like a unicorn in a sea of donkeys.

Well you sure couldn't tell it by that mess of a statement above I made from my phone without checking....R u a donkey Gary?
 
Well you sure couldn't tell it by that mess of a statement above I made from my phone without checking....R u a donkey Gary?

You're the one who feels like you understand how to coach the Iowa Hawkeyes. You tell me.

It's a wonder that Ferentz hasn't tried to hire you. Did you apply?
 
I'm just sayin'.


No Gary, your not really sayin anything...But don't take my opinion ask a couple of these other cats (of which there are many) that are tired of the constant "coaching" from the Internet experts....

And I am just sayin'......:cool:
 
Texas high school football is the answer. Most schools in the Big 12 draw heavily from Texas. The state has put a high emphasis on 7 on 7 tournaments. Guys that would normally be DEs are TEs that don't learn to block. Guys that should be LBs slim down and try and play RB and Receiver. Very few quality LBs come out of Texas these days and it shows on Saturdays.
 
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Texas high school football is the answer. Most schools in the Big 12 draw heavily from Texas. The state has put a high emphasis on 7 on 7 tournaments. Guys that would normally be DEs are TEs that don't learn to block. Guys that should be LBs slim down and try and play RB and Receiver. Very few quality LBs come out of Texas these days and it shows on Saturdays.


Hmmmm that is an interesting view point... Ive never considered the impact of seven on seven football and I'll wager you're on to something. At least to a small degree if not a fairly big one.

That's the kind of viewpoints and "different" thinking I enjoy not the boy those coaches really screwed up our team type of crap that is the norm for about 40 or 50 guys on here!
 
Hmmmm that is an interesting view point... Ive never considered the impact of seven on seven football and I'll wager you're on to something. At least to a small degree if not a fairly big one.

That's the kind of viewpoints and "different" thinking I enjoy not the boy those coaches really screwed up our team type of crap that is the norm for about 40 or 50 guys on here!

Yeah it's basically a lot of the highly athletic kids want the glory of scoring touchdowns instead of positions that they may better at. So offense has seen a boom and defense is busted.

If you look at Texas A&M, they brought in John Chavis who is a top 5 DC, but still have defensive problems. Why? They can't get linebackers big enough to stop the power run game of the SEC. Guys like Derrick Henry, Leonard Fournette, and Collins from Arkansas just out physical them. Instate recruiting doesn't help them a ton in that area because there are very few guys that play LB at a high enough level to help out, and they have to recruit against 5 instate P5 teams that all need those same guys, that doesn't even bring up national recruiting. Last year there were two big time LBs in Texas, Baron Browning and Anthony Hines. A&M got Hines and Ohio State got Browning. Everyone else is left to try and build guys up to size and hope they keep their speed. Cornerback has some of the same problems. A lot of athletic kids prefer to play WR rather than corner. The problem isn't as rampant as LB but has led to A&M being weak on the edges as well.

That is one of the top two teams in Texas struggling on defense, and they have a massive recruiting advantage. So teams like Baylor and Tech are left to find diamonds in the rough in a state that has a ton more offensive than defensive talent. It is easy to slip into the mindset that we can just outscore them. This doesn't bring up teams like Oklahoma St or Kansas that has to recruit Texas and often is lower on the totem poll. This makes it hard to get talent on defense.

Another look at it is the popularity of the spread offense in the big 12. The spread can lead to a lot of points because it gets your playmakers the ball in space. The downside to this is you aren't on the field very long. You either score quickly or go out quickly. This doesn't allow much time for the defense to rest. This effect is extend later in games. Even teams with good defenses will tire out and start to play sloppy. For non blue blood programs this is where depth is a concern. You're quality of play decreases as your players need rest. So more points are scored late in the game and blowouts and shootouts become more common. Of the teams in the big 12 only Kansas St doesn't use some form of the spread. Oklahoma has a power run game within the spread similar to auburn but it is still a spread. Baylor, TCU, West Virginia, Kansas, and Oklahoma State run a similar style of spread. Tech runs their Air Raid. Iowa State does their thing. Texas is still trying to find an identity but they brought in atom Herman who was at UH and was the old OC at Ohio State.
 
Defense is a mindset. If the head coach doesn't have it the culture doesn't follow no matter who the defensive coordinator is. None of the coaches in the Big XII have been hired with this mentality and few even have a background in it. I can't give Gary Patterson the benefit of the doubt here since he's usually run some form of the air raid and when TCU was a big time school in non power 5 he was a big fish in a little pond. In the big leagues he's never shown any consistent defensive success. I'd compare Patterson with Urban Meyer, who is a big fish in a little pond in the B1G, his defenses are usually good but is mostly due to being able to outrecruit others for personnel, he's an offensive style coach at heart. Put him at Iowa and his defense would suck.

And no, West Virginia was not a better defense in any capacity then Iowa's last year.
 
Texas high school football is the answer. Most schools in the Big 12 draw heavily from Texas. The state has put a high emphasis on 7 on 7 tournaments. Guys that would normally be DEs are TEs that don't learn to block. Guys that should be LBs slim down and try and play RB and Receiver. Very few quality LBs come out of Texas these days and it shows on Saturdays.
They play football 10 months of the year and have classes during the day that are geared to football....pretty sure they have plenty time to teach blocking and also pretty sure the top 10 LBs from Texas annually would start on any team in the country
As a poster said previously it has nothing to do with coaching, players, or defensive schemes. It is simply the quick paced offense the conference runs lends itself to high scores by putting pressure on opposing defense you also tend to put pressure on your own. 3 and out or a quick score and boom defense is on the field again
 
They play football 10 months of the year and have classes during the day that are geared to football....pretty sure they have plenty time to teach blocking and also pretty sure the top 10 LBs from Texas annually would start on any team in the country
As a poster said previously it has nothing to do with coaching, players, or defensive schemes. It is simply the quick paced offense the conference runs lends itself to high scores by putting pressure on opposing defense you also tend to put pressure on your own. 3 and out or a quick score and boom defense is on the field again

You find the point but miss it completely, they play offense 10 months of the year. The important part of linebacker is filling to hit and that is done for maybe 3 months. Linebacker is a mentality and the kids in this state abondon it because it doesn't come with laurels. Trust me I live here. People don't care how many times you stuffed a rusher, it's about how many touchdowns you score or how many sacks you get.
 
The style of offenses in the Big XII do make a big difference in the defenses looking very poor. Let's be honest the style of offenses in the B1G do help out defenses drastically.

Kansas State is the one team closes to a B1G style of offense and it shows when it comes to their defense. Their offense is ball control and wants to waste all the time off the clock. Their defense just doesn't see the field as much as other Big XII teams.

Guys like Patterson and Stoops are excellent defensive coaches but their offenses don't help them out at all... that is their own doing. When Patterson had those great defenses, it wasn't just because he was in a non-P5 gig but his offenses were different back then. Andy Dalton ran a different offense then what you see now. Try telling that great Wisconsin offense under Russell Wilson that TCU didn't have a great defense then.

Texas high school football supplies most of the Big XII's talent... most of the high schools there run their Texas spreads. Talent is stockpiled on offense and not as much on defense. Way to reliant on 7on7 football and the physical aspect of football is lacking. It is all about trying to cover someone in a track meet instead of focusing on stopping someones run game.

Remember the Big XII use to be a great defensive league back in the 90's/00's but then Texas Tech and their Air Raid came about... the rest is history and it killed that league defensively. It use to be a prodimanetly run based league with power.

Now you are seeing teams throw the ball 60-70 times a game. Again only Kansas State still prefers to run mostly but even they have to throw it more than they prefer to keep up with those track meets.

I'm a KU fan and I HATE watching KU's and most of the Big XII's offenses. I love running the football with a pro-style offense.
 
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Thankfully the memories of that humiliating bowl season have faded enough for us to regain our B1G conference pride. This cycle seems to repeat itself every year.
 
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