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Interesting Morning At Church

Aug 23, 2013
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Mt. Juliet, TN
Our ministerial staff drafted a statement condemning the SCOTUS decision concerning gay marriage. In that statement the traditional interpretation of marriage was defined and reaffirmed. Our minister will not perform any same sex marriages...and as he stated there have been many hetero marriages he has declined because the ceremonies in question were not within the parameters of Christian beliefs. As to everything else he cautioned the congregation to refrain from "aggressive" and "confrontational" discussion...as he stated we are in the business of accepting all people...just not in accepting behaviors not in line with God's teachings. I thought it was a very valid and powerful statement.
 
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Doesn't sound like a very accepting church. And some wonder why the younger generation is becoming increasingly less religious.

But hey, whatever floats your boat.
I thought it was very accepting...we aren't turning these people away...we just aren't going to perform their marriage ceremonies...and we aren't going to accept this behavior as being in line with church doctrine. If others don't like it let them go elsewhere. It is sin...not the only sin but sin nonetheless. Everyone sins...Christians as well. I lusted after my female server in tight jeans at Ruby Tuesday's today...
 
I would classify it as hypocritical, not accepting.

But, then, that seems to be the theme of most religions so it falls in line.
 
Bothers you doesn't it? Same old line about giving money to church. Tell you what...you keep giving to liberal causes that don't work...I'll give my money to the church that actually feeds poor folk.

You give 10 percent? If you don't, are you sinning?
 
If you aren't willing to perform legal marriages for any who qualify legally, you shouldn't be empowered to perform legal marriages for anyone.

Churches can only perform legal marriages with authorization from the state. They have traditionally had that authorization. But that authorization should be withdrawn if they aren't willing to follow the law.
 
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I thought it was very accepting...we aren't turning these people away...we just aren't going to perform their marriage ceremonies...and we aren't going to accept this behavior as being in line with church doctrine. If others don't like it let them go elsewhere. It is sin...not the only sin but sin nonetheless. Everyone sins...Christians as well. I lusted after my female server in tight jeans at Ruby Tuesday's today...


Pic of waitress in these jeans
 
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If you aren't willing to perform legal marriages for any who qualify legally, you shouldn't be empowered to perform legal marriages for anyone.

Churches can only perform legal marriages with authorization from the state. They have traditionally had that authorization. But that authorization should be withdrawn if they aren't willing to follow the law.
As long as they still have other outlets to perform their ceremonies then churches have the right to deny them. If churches are the only authority to marry then you might have a point...
 
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As long as they still have other outlets to perform their ceremonies then churches have the right to deny them. If churches are the only authority to marry then you might have a point...
You might be really close to a breakthrough here. Ponder the rationale for your statement.
 
As long as they still have other outlets to perform their ceremonies then churches have the right to deny them. If churches are the only authority to marry then you might have a point...
I completely agree that if they have other avenues to get married they shouldn't be able to successfully sue to force a bigoted church to conduct the ceremony. That isn't what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that a bigoted church that refuses to carry out LEGAL marriages according to the law (given that the law does not and cannot allow discrimination in this way), should not be able to carry out legal marriages at all.
 
I completely agree that if they have other avenues to get married they shouldn't be able to successfully sue to force a bigoted church to conduct the ceremony. That isn't what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that a bigoted church that refuses to carry out LEGAL marriages according to the law (given that the law does not and cannot allow discrimination in this way), should not be able to carry out legal marriages at all.

That would violate their right to religious freedom.

Why can't you lefties be a little more tolerant of others?
 
I hope he's lashing into people for eating shrimp or wearing Under Armor, since those are the other abominations listed near the same verses in the Old Testament. Or is he picking and choosing God's teachings?

Nah, God has really loosened up with that ish. He is pretty chill about those things now. Pretty much everything except for gay sex. That stuff really pisses him off.
 
I completely agree that if they have other avenues to get married they shouldn't be able to successfully sue to force a bigoted church to conduct the ceremony. That isn't what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that a bigoted church that refuses to carry out LEGAL marriages according to the law (given that the law does not and cannot allow discrimination in this way), should not be able to carry out legal marriages at all.
Different definitions of bigotry...there is also anti religious bigotry as well. You should watch how you use that term.
 
I thought it was very accepting...we aren't turning these people away...we just aren't going to perform their marriage ceremonies...and we aren't going to accept this behavior as being in line with church doctrine. If others don't like it let them go elsewhere. It is sin...not the only sin but sin nonetheless. Everyone sins...Christians as well. I lusted after my female server in tight jeans at Ruby Tuesday's today...

Yeah, because people entering committed and lifelong relationships with each other, full of love, respect, and devotion, sure is un-Christian.

What a shitty religion.
 
The RC Church refuses to marry divorced people
unless they get an annulment. I have never heard of
a Roman Catholic church being sued over this policy.
Divorced Roman Catholics simply join a Protestant
church like Lutherans and get married.
 
There isn't any verse in the Bible where it says to give 10% that I know of...that came from Charlemagne...you give time, talents and offerings as to your own abilities. Jesus praised the widow who gave 2 mites because it was a sacrifice for her.

Matthew 23:23 - Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.
 
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Our minister will not perform any same sex marriages...and as he stated there have been many hetero marriages he has declined because the ceremonies in question were not within the parameters of Christian beliefs.

...and THIS is the key point here. ANY church can deny a religious marriage ceremony to ANY couple that does not conform to their church's beliefs/belief systems.

And there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING wrong with that.
 
What I'm saying is that a bigoted church that refuses to carry out LEGAL marriages according to the law (given that the law does not and cannot allow discrimination in this way), should not be able to carry out legal marriages at all.

Wrong on all counts.

A religious ceremony has NO BEARING on the legal marriage contract (which is generally signed during or after the religious service). Churches have absolute power and discrimination over whomever they want to marry. Period. They can cite any religious beliefs/reasons they want to, and the government has no power to intervene.
 
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...and THIS is the key point here. ANY church can deny a religious marriage ceremony to ANY couple that does not conform to their church's beliefs/belief systems.

And there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING wrong with that.

When their religious beliefs are stupid, there most certainly is something wrong with that.
 
Wrong on all counts.

...and the government has no power to intervene.

Impressive that these businesses, oops I'm sorry, I meant churches can discriminate like this.

The power the government DOES have is revoking the tax exemptions for churches that discriminate.

I hope this happens in my lifetime.
 
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I thought it was very accepting...we aren't turning these people away...we just aren't going to perform their marriage ceremonies...and we aren't going to accept this behavior as being in line with church doctrine. If others don't like it let them go elsewhere. It is sin...not the only sin but sin nonetheless. Everyone sins...Christians as well. I lusted after my female server in tight jeans at Ruby Tuesday's today...

If they are good enough to be acepted in to your house to worship they are good enough to be married in the same house.
That being said.... Churches are exempt from this.
 
When their religious beliefs are stupid, there most certainly is something wrong with that.

Perhaps 'ethically', it's wrong.
But 'legally', it's fine.

Why would any gay couple WANT to belong to a church that doesn't accept them & their lifestyle?
The next SCOTUS case will come from Hobby Lobby or ChikFilA regardling spousal benefits or something like that.
 
Church and state are, and should remain separate. Marriage, for the purposes of the state, is a financial agreement. Marriage, from the church's perspective, requires a commitment not only to each other but to God. The bible guides the church, while the law of the land guides the state. There's nothing wrong with either of those.

Most in this thread need to understand that the state does not have an obligation to follow suit with the church, nor the church with the state.

live and let live folks. If you don't like that church, don't go there. There are plenty of Christian churches willing to marry gay people.
 
If you aren't willing to perform legal marriages for any who qualify legally, you shouldn't be empowered to perform legal marriages for anyone.

Churches can only perform legal marriages with authorization from the state. They have traditionally had that authorization. But that authorization should be withdrawn if they aren't willing to follow the law.
I imagine this is just a rhetorical point, I'd be careful about this position. Aren't there a good many quasi governmental actions that are de facto contracted out to private organizations? Do we really expect all these private organizations to now become public? Extending this logic wouldn't all private schools need to admit anyone? Things that are open to the public, should have to follow the public ethos. Things closed to the public should be allowed to follow their private ethos IMO.
 
I think wwjd would authorize military force to go in there and force the church to perform the sinful duty {well, maybe not military}
 
I imagine this is just a rhetorical point, I'd be careful about this position. Aren't there a good many quasi governmental actions that are de facto contracted out to private organizations? Do we really expect all these private organizations to now become public? Extending this logic wouldn't all private schools need to admit anyone? Things that are open to the public, should have to follow the public ethos. Things closed to the public should be allowed to follow their private ethos IMO.
Yes, there are many governmental actions contracted out to private organizations. No, they don't all need to become public (although some should).

Take private schools. If you want to be able to discriminate about who or what you teach and you are a private school, that's perfectly fine. You get no subsidies, no vouchers, no special tax breaks. And, if you don't teach approved subject matter, no official accreditation. I'm sure plenty of private schools would function effectively under those terms, and could be excellent schools.

So what's the difference, you ask. In the case of the private school, the business is providing a product and there's no harm (except maybe to some students) in letting the market decide the value of that product.

But in the case of marriage, what's being provided is approval of a contract that is binding on more than just the people getting married. It's a societal commitment that provides benefits that have to be honored or paid for by other members of society. Why should bigots who refuse to apply the laws equally to all be entrusted with that power?

Those religious organizations who don't want to apply the law equally shouldn't be in the position to apply that law at all. Let them perform their private bonding rituals as they see fit and let the market decide how much to value their "marriages" - if at all.

Some of us might not place much value in marriages performed by snake worshipers who speak in tongues, for example.
 
Our ministerial staff drafted a statement condemning the SCOTUS decision concerning gay marriage. In that statement the traditional interpretation of marriage was defined and reaffirmed. Our minister will not perform any same sex marriages...and as he stated there have been many hetero marriages he has declined because the ceremonies in question were not within the parameters of Christian beliefs. As to everything else he cautioned the congregation to refrain from "aggressive" and "confrontational" discussion...as he stated we are in the business of accepting all people...just not in accepting behaviors not in line with God's teachings. I thought it was a very valid and powerful statement.


Our pastors have been doing a lot of set up work on this recently. We are Methodist and the church tends to be live and let live. But they anticipated what was coming down this month and keep reminding us we are all Christians, we are all in this together, basically we don't get our way all the time. So be an adult. I expect conservatives to pout and find a a church that feeds on butt hurt and resentments.
 
Our ministerial staff drafted a statement condemning the SCOTUS decision concerning gay marriage. In that statement the traditional interpretation of marriage was defined and reaffirmed. Our minister will not perform any same sex marriages...and as he stated there have been many hetero marriages he has declined because the ceremonies in question were not within the parameters of Christian beliefs. As to everything else he cautioned the congregation to refrain from "aggressive" and "confrontational" discussion...as he stated we are in the business of accepting all people...just not in accepting behaviors not in line with God's teachings. I thought it was a very valid and powerful statement.
It sounds like a bunch of bullsh!t to be honest.
 
Our pastors have been doing a lot of set up work on this recently. We are Methodist and the church tends to be live and let live. But they anticipated what was coming down this month and keep reminding us we are all Christians, we are all in this together, basically we don't get our way all the time. So be an adult. I expect conservatives to pout and find a a church that feeds on butt hurt and resentments.

I have a lot of ties to the Methodist church and they are extremely left wing liberal, at least the ones are I know of
 
I thought it was very accepting...we aren't turning these people away...we just aren't going to perform their marriage ceremonies...and we aren't going to accept this behavior as being in line with church doctrine. If others don't like it let them go elsewhere. It is sin...not the only sin but sin nonetheless. Everyone sins...Christians as well. I lusted after my female server in tight jeans at Ruby Tuesday's today...
You didn't sin actually.
 
Yes, there are many governmental actions contracted out to private organizations. No, they don't all need to become public (although some should).

Take private schools. If you want to be able to discriminate about who or what you teach and you are a private school, that's perfectly fine. You get no subsidies, no vouchers, no special tax breaks. And, if you don't teach approved subject matter, no official accreditation. I'm sure plenty of private schools would function effectively under those terms, and could be excellent schools.

So what's the difference, you ask. In the case of the private school, the business is providing a product and there's no harm (except maybe to some students) in letting the market decide the value of that product.

But in the case of marriage, what's being provided is approval of a contract that is binding on more than just the people getting married. It's a societal commitment that provides benefits that have to be honored or paid for by other members of society. Why should bigots who refuse to apply the laws equally to all be entrusted with that power?

Those religious organizations who don't want to apply the law equally shouldn't be in the position to apply that law at all. Let them perform their private bonding rituals as they see fit and let the market decide how much to value their "marriages" - if at all.

Some of us might not place much value in marriages performed by snake worshipers who speak in tongues, for example.

What part of "religious ceremony" vs. "legal contract" (which MUST be filed with the clerk of court REGARDLESS of whether you hold a ceremony or not) is too difficult for you to understand here?

The 'ceremony' is meaningless in the eyes of the law.
 
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