Tony v. Andrew
- Thread starter dmlawdad
- Start date
Thanks for posting that. They need to tweak the rules because that should be a take down with 20 seconds left. Great job by Tony to gut out that win.
I do think there's something wrong with awarding the aggressor 1 instead of 2 because the guy who has gotten controlled but remained on all fours has managed to crawl OOB. I'd have no problem with calling in a takedown when the defensive wrestler is controlled and puts a hand down.
Why should that be a td?
Taking the OB out of it, its freestyle not folkstyle. Different criteria for a td. I can guarantee there are plenty outside the US that would think some of these called folkstyle tds are ridiculous (hand grazed the mat). They are just different and most of us are more used to folkstyle. There is risk to defending that way as many times a guy is thrown for 4, leg laced or trap armed propped up like that. No change needed.
Regarding the OB. If the ref felt that the defender was crawling out to avoid being taken down a caution and 2 points could have been awarded.
The rules of freestyle are different than folkstyle. You are advocating a switch to folkstyle rules. In this case, the aggressor could not get the 3rd supporting point down before they went OOB - why should he be awarded 2?
Agreed, papa technically it's not 2 in freestyle but it really was the definition of control..
This was my point. I understand freestyle has different rules. Ding the guy 2 points for crawling OOB if you don't want to give up the TD and potential exposure points.
Rule already in place for that. Caution and 2 points. Ref had that option and obviously didn't see it that way.
I think rusty got that. He was just saying Tony had "control" just not the criteria for a td.
I'm aware that the criteria are different. That was my whole point -- that I'd be OK with different criteria for a TD.
Hochstrasser crawled OOB. The ref didn't see it that way, obviously. Looked pretty clear to me. That was my point -- Ramos was effectively penalized a point because Hochstrasser crawled OOB, avoiding the 2 and only giving up the push-out. I find that annoying, no matter who's wrestling.
Since when were folkstyle and freestyle rules different? I was under the impression that wrestling was wrestling, and that the rules were uniform worldwide.
I don't see that Ramos was penalized. He did not establish criteria for TD and 2 points. He MAY have had a reduced opportunity for this, but as PapaBear pointed out, he also had an increased opportunity for a larger exposure, which didn't happen either.
I don't see any issue with the way it was scored. Hochstrasser was penalized and penalized correctly IMO.
That's the same as saying the criteria for a folkstyle td should be changed because 1 guy was close to securing one but the other guy managed to get OB before criteria was met. The criteria for a td should not change because wrestlers get OB before being taken down.Tony was not penalized because Hochstrasser went OB. If you believe Hochstrasser fled then maybe Tony was penalized because the ref didn't recognize it but its no different than any other near td situation that winds up OB before criteria is met in either style except you get 1 in freestyle.
Akin it to obvious stalls/flees in folkstyle. Up to the ref to call it, not the rules committee to redefine a td.
Side note on the subject- I went to the WTT last year and the caution for running OB was called as inconsistently as stalling/fleeing in low level high school matches. A lot of times a guy would be literally crawling or diving off the mat and no caution call. Other times a guy would have his leg tree topped then walked off the mat while trying to balance on 1 leg and dinged a caution.
It was ruled a "slip". It's a rule in the international styles used to encourage big offensive moves (headlocks, arm throws, lat drops...). The thinking behind it is more big moves/throws would be attempted if you didn't have to worry about giving up a td because you went for it and missed. Retherford attempted a weak arm throw and the result was a "slip", no points either guy, back on your feet.
Good rule in theory but its another rule that's called inconsistently and sometimes bails a guy out when he's in trouble. I could do without it but usually only complain about it once every 100 matches
Question: Did the ref have the discretion to allow Tony to continue to try for the takedown even though Hoch's hands were out of bounds? The reaction of the Flo announcers to the whistle suggested that the ref stopped the action earlier than he might have otherwise. And, if the ref has discretion, how is he supposed to exercise it? I know that if a move starts completely in bounds and continues out of bounds, it all counts. Less clear to me what a ref is supposed to do in a situation like the one between Tony and Hoch.
Thanks for clarifying. Duh, I've seen that happen before just forgot about the rule.
Right -- and we see how helpful that rule was in this case. I would bet that goes uncalled much mroe th
In a way, you're making my point. I think folkstyle should add a push-out rule, which would eliminate most of the baloney you describe, which probably drives you nuts as much as it bugs me. I think both styles need some tweaks to the rules that would remove some of the subjectivity from the refs, reward aggressive wrestling, and minimize controversy.
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