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Trump Is at Odds With NATO — and Reality

cigaretteman

HR King
May 29, 2001
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There’s been widespread attention on Donald Trump’s asserting that he would refuse to defend NATO allies he considers “delinquent” and even saying he might encourage Russia to attack them. A lot of the conversations I’ve heard have focused on the policy implications — on what it would mean for America to abandon its treaty obligations and treat NATO as a protection racket.
These implications are important and alarming. But if you ask me, we haven’t given enough attention to exactly what Trump said — and what it says about his grasp on reality.
Honestly, I’d love to spend this campaign talking only about policy; wonkery is my happy place. But since enough of the body politic seems to have decided to make this election season an exercise in amateur long-distance geriatric diagnosis, focusing on President Biden’s age and appearance rather than his record, let’s take a closer look at his opponent.
For Trump often gives the impression of living in his own reality. I’m not talking about the fact that he lies a lot, although he does. My point, rather, is that he often seems unable to tell the difference between self-aggrandizing fantasies and things that actually happened.
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So here’s how Trump’s repudiation of NATO went down: He didn’t make a straightforward case, which would have been arguable, that we’re spending too much on defense while our allies are spending too little. Instead, he told a story: “One of the presidents of a big country stood up and said, ‘Well, sir, if we don’t pay and we’re attacked by Russia, will you protect us?’ I said, ‘You didn’t pay? You’re delinquent? … No, I would not protect you. In fact, I would encourage them to do whatever the hell they want.’”
To use the language of intelligence assessments, it’s highly unlikely that this conversation or anything like it actually happened.
But as CNN’s Daniel Dale has noted, Trump is very fond of telling stories about big, strong men with tears in their eyes coming up and calling him “sir.” There’s almost never any corroborating evidence, and it’s a good bet that very few of these stories are accounts of actual conversations.

It is similarly highly unlikely that the likes of, let’s say, Emmanuel Macron and Angela Merkel ever addressed Trump as “sir.” It’s also highly unlikely that any NATO leaders asked what would happen if their countries didn’t “pay.” European officials know, even if Trump doesn’t, that NATO is an alliance, not a club that collects dues from its members.
By the way, while European nations have probably been spending too little on their own defense, many have risen to the challenge of Vladimir Putin’s invasion of Ukraine. Notably, Lithuania — which Trump singled out as fair game for Putin — has spent six times as much on Ukraine aid, measured as a share of G.D.P., as the United States has.








So what’s going on here? Either Trump is telling an especially pointless lie or he’s confused about past events.
It wouldn’t be the first time. As I said, while we don’t know for sure that Trump’s many “sir” stories are figments of his imagination, we do know that, contrary to his claims, one source said there’s no way that police officers and court employees were “crying” and apologizing to Trump at his Manhattan court arraignment last spring.
Let’s be clear what’s at stake here. Never mind the political analysis, the talk about public perceptions and how they may affect the 2024 horse race. What we should be focusing on is how the candidates’ mental competence might affect their decision making.
It’s notable that despite all the frenzy about Biden’s age, I haven’t seen many suggestions that he’s made bad decisions because his judgment is impaired; it’s almost all speculation about the future. Yes, he’s made mistakes, although the two decisions that got the most criticism — withdrawing from Afghanistan and going big on spending — are actually looking justifiable in retrospect.
But these mistakes, if they were mistakes, were the kind any president, no matter how young and vigorous, could have made.
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On the other hand, consider how Trump reacted to the Covid-19 pandemic. Republicans have been remarkably successful at pretending that the Trump administration ended before the pandemic came to dominate the scene. But it didn’t; Covid killed more than 77,000 Americans in December 2020, Trump’s last full month in office.
And as the pandemic spread, Trump responded, as The Washington Post put it, with “denial, mismanagement and magical thinking.” Basically, he was unwilling to acknowledge an inconvenient reality and continually minimized the danger while amplifying quack remedies. Remember all the times he said Covid would disappear? Remember the “disinfectant” press briefing? Remember hydroxychloroquine?
Oh, and in case you’ve forgotten, Trump still refuses to admit that he lost the 2020 election.
Unlike Biden’s missteps, whatever you may think they have been, Trump’s mishandling of Covid and election denial were uniquely Trumpian — the behavior of a man who doesn’t like to accept reality when it isn’t what he wants it to be.
And does anyone think he’s improved on that front over the past three years?
 
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Don't particularly have a problem with this,.. This is how you encourage dead beat political leaders to make good on their country's NATO commitments..
 
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Don't particularly have a problem with this,.. This is how you encourage dead beat political leaders to make good on their country's NATO commitments..

Bullshit. You are talking fractions of pennies that have no impact. This from an unethical Orange dick head that has made career screwing and cheating people, banks, contractors, etc. out of money.

Get real. His idea of fairness is fantasy.
 
NATO only works if all members are adequately equipped and trained to protect themselves,.. Any NATO member who is unwilling to protect themselves, will certainly be unable to protect a fellow NATO country.
 
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NATO only works if all members are adequately equipped and trained to protect themselves,.. Any NATO member who is unwilling to protect themselves, will certainly be unable to protect a fellow NATO country.

I agree with you on that BUT at the same time when you start saying you will encourage Russia to attack them you've gone too far.

There aught to be other ways to pressure them to meet their treaty obligations.
 
Iceland does not have a military. The operative is financial support beyond initial membership. Military support is cooperative. The purpose of a treaty encompassing a collection of countries for mutual protection is that an attack on one is an attack on all. Regardless of contribution or commitment by those smaller members. The sphere is the fortress.

Why is this so difficult to understand?
 
I agree with you on that BUT at the same time when you start saying you will encourage Russia to attack them you've gone too far.

There aught to be other ways to pressure them to meet their treaty obligations.

Not really,.. These decisions to not fund NATO commitments are being made by politicians who likely aren't being very open with their voters regarding that reality,.. This might be a rough approach, but it's a very quick and effective way to bring the conversation out and into public view.
 
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Bullshit. You are talking fractions of pennies that have no impact. This from an unethical Orange dick head that has made career screwing and cheating people, banks, contractors, etc. out of money.

Get real. His idea of fairness is fantasy.
The 2% threshold wasn’t his idea. It predates his presidency by a decade.

The 448 million people of the EU and GDP estimated to be around $19.35 trillion (nominal) in 2024 and $26.64 trillion(PPP) can decide what to spend confronting the 148 million Russians and their 1.7 trillion (2021 est) economy.

The idea this must be America’s fight is absurd.

Neocons pushed NATO expansion until it created the war everyone told them it would.
Time to rein in the neocons and let Europe end this war.
 
Someone needs to sit down with Trump and introduce him to the trials and tribulations of Neville Chamberlain and the meaning of "appeasement." Obviously Trump and his merry band of MAGA/Putin supporters don't have a clue.
 
Stop worrying about Putin,.. He's down almost half a million men and still can't take Ukraine. Outside of that he'd last about two weeks vs NATO, and on his own he'll be dead of old age or assassination within the next 6-8 years...
 
Stop worrying about Putin,.. He's down almost half a million men and still can't take Ukraine. Outside of that he'd last about two weeks vs NATO, and on his own he'll be dead of old age or assassination within the next 6-8 years...

Unless someone breaks up the alliance. . . Someone like Trump

You think that maybe getting so aggressive about it that you say you are going to encourage Russia to attack them might cause some problems and sow some distrust in the alliance.

I'm fine with pushing them to meet their 2% obligations. I'm not fine with acting like this so much that the other nations there start thinking you not only wouldn't support them in the event of an attack but would in fact support the other side.
 
The 2% threshold wasn’t his idea. It predates his presidency by a decade.

The 448 million people of the EU and GDP estimated to be around $19.35 trillion (nominal) in 2024 and $26.64 trillion(PPP) can decide what to spend confronting the 148 million Russians and their 1.7 trillion (2021 est) economy.

The idea this must be America’s fight is absurd.

Neocons pushed NATO expansion until it created the war everyone told them it would.
Time to rein in the neocons and let Europe end this war.

JFC. How do debate with mental midgets? You don't. You let them sit around their campfires and wait until they talk themselves into everything and anything. And not be smart enough to be embarrassed to make outlandish statements and even accusations.

Being dumb is easy.
Not realizing is forgivable.
Having it brought to your attention and ignoring it is being ultraconservative.
 
JFC. How do debate with mental midgets? You don't. You let them sit around their campfires and wait until they talk themselves into everything and anything. And not be smart enough to be embarrassed to make outlandish statements and even accusations.

Being dumb is easy.
Not realizing is forgivable.
Having it brought to your attention and ignoring it is being ultraconservative.
This is what you’re left with, because you can’t construct a rational case for why Europeans must be the wards of American taxpayers into perpetuity against their smaller, poorer neighbors.
 
This is what you’re left with, because you can’t construct a rational case for why Europeans must be the wards of American taxpayers into perpetuity against their smaller, poorer neighbors.

Apply your rational to the U.S.'s deployment world-wide. Please inform us of our requirements to protect areas of the world and reimbursements forthcoming. We are the leader of the free world. Not by accident. It is a role we took on and have accepted. It comes at a cost. The fleets of nuclear carriers and strategic arms are massively expensive.

The Orange Turd wants isolationism. Nationalism. The public, even what's left of any semblance of the Republican party haven't even thought about coming to grips with this concept. Your ideas are simplistic. Poor countries are not the issue. You are mired in the MAGA garbage. Strategic advantage provided by NATO protection outweighs the mickey mouse arguments this orange freak makes over percentage points of gdp.

And this goofball can't live without, he would find some other grievance to rage.
 
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Apply your rational to the U.S.'s deployment world-wide.
Nah, I'm not letting you off the hook.
Explain why it is incumbent upon the U.S. taxpayer to protect the EU from the neighbor 1/3rd their size in population, with 1/10th the economy.

Let's see the argument that convinced you this is a wise course.
 
Nah, I'm not letting you off the hook.
Explain why it is incumbent upon the U.S. taxpayer to protect the EU from the neighbor 1/3rd their size in population, with 1/10th the economy.

Let's see the argument that convinced you this is a wise course.

I don't see why this has to continue. It's mickey mouse fractions on the dollar (we're talking 1.5, 1.7, 1.8, 1.9.,1.4. 3.4,3.3,3.0.7 etc., of in some cases very small economies vs. trillions aggregate spending military we are spending. You have to consider 2 countries not contributing 2.0% provide NATO HQs (Belgium) and military bases. (Germany). Whatever size it's a matter of principal which has no bearing on strategic significance.

Edit: You keep saying the U.S. tax payer is protecting the EU.. Do you not understand NATO is the shield protecting Europe? And if Europe is vulnerable the world will be subject to another world conflict. If you don't you are young and uneducated, old and ignorant, or just plain refuse to accept reality, which wouldn't surprise me at all.


 
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I don't see why this has to continue.
Agreed!

Explain why it is incumbent upon the U.S. taxpayer to protect the EU from the neighbor 1/3rd their size in population, with 1/10th the economy.

Let's see the argument that convinced you this is a wise course.
 
Agreed!

Explain why it is incumbent upon the U.S. taxpayer to protect the EU from the neighbor 1/3rd their size in population, with 1/10th the economy.

Let's see the argument that convinced you this is a wise course.

My edit apparently wasn't posted in time.
 
My edit apparently wasn't posted in time.
So still no justification for US taxpayers being on the hook to protect the EU from a country with 1/3rd their population and 1/10th their economy?

I get it. I can’t come up with a justification for it either.
 
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So still no justification for US taxpayers being on the hook to protect the EU from a country with 1/3rd their population and 1/10th their economy?

I get it. I can’t come up with a justification for it either.

I try to engage in mature conversation and get crap like this. Typical of wingers incapable of presenting a logical argument. Why would I expect otherwise?
 
I try to engage in mature conversation and get crap like this. Typical of wingers incapable of presenting a logical argument. Why would I expect otherwise?
Why you can’t you present a cogent argument explaining why you think American taxpayers should assume primary responsibility for protecting the EU from a country with 1/3rd their population and 1/10th their economy?

Dissembling and deflection, but no justification ever forthcoming.

It’s clear you don’t have one.
 
Why you can’t you present a cogent argument explaining why you think American taxpayers should assume primary responsibility for protecting the EU from a country with 1/3rd their population and 1/10th their economy?

Dissembling and deflection, but no justification ever forthcoming.

It’s clear you don’t have one.

I did asshole. It's not significant in scale of the mission. JFC.
 
Learn some history
I know more than you do.
Guaranteed.
You certainly didn’t answer my question about if we hadn’t bailed out the House of Morgan by entering WW1.

I notice you can’t formulate a cogent argument for why the U.S. must protect the EU from a country with 1/3rd the populace and 1/10th the economy.

NATO expansion has borne the fruit experts predicted, and the neocons ignored. Have you learned that recent history yet?
 
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I know more than you do.
Guaranteed.
You certainly didn’t answer my question about if we hadn’t bailed out the House of Morgan by entering WW1.

I notice you can’t formulate a cogent argument for why the U.S. must protect the EU from a country with 1/3rd the populace and 1/10th the economy.

NATO expansion has borne the fruit experts predicted, and the neocons ignored. Have you learned that recent history yet?

The Russians have a history of being aggressive AND unpredictable....the actual numbers are moot
 
I haven’t seen you offer that explanation.

Link to the post you think you did?

Jesus. Fvcking moron. House of Morgan. Dipshits like you try to pull pseudo-intellectual arguments, from, who knows where you get your nonsense, and simply make bigger fools of themselves.

Resign yourself to you are dealing with adults. Stay in your playground.
 
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