“Wokeness is a problem and we all know it”

[HotelAlphaWilcoKilo]

The headline is, of course, to get you clicking. He's talking messaging and things the DNC could improve upon. The "dismantle" progressives, of course, see him as a dinosaur who wants to stay comfortable in his racist whiteness.
(Sorry for the Vox link, folx! ✊)



https://www.vox.com/22338417/james-carville-democratic-party-biden-100-days

James Carville on the state of Democratic politics.

By Sean Illing@seanillingsean.illing@vox.com Apr 27, 2021, 8:30am EDT

I called James Carville hoping to get his thoughts on President Joe Biden’s first 100 days in office.

He obliged — then, one question in, brushed aside the exercise to talk instead about why the Democrats might be poised to squander their political advantage against a damaged GOP.

His failure to cooperate may have been for the best since the first 100 days ritual can sometimes lead to dull, dutiful analysis. What Carville offered up instead was a blunt critique of his own party even after a successful 2020 election cycle — a sequel of sorts to his fulminations during last year’s Democratic primaries. The longtime Democratic strategist is mostly pleased with Biden, but it’s where much of the party seems to be going that has him worried.

“Wokeness is a problem,” he told me, “and we all know it.” According to Carville, Democrats are in power for now, but they also only narrowly defeated Donald Trump, “a world-historical buffoon,” and they lost congressional seats and failed to pick up state legislatures. The reason is simple: They’ve got a “messaging problem.”

A lightly edited transcript of our conversation follows.

Sean Illing​

What do you make of Biden’s first 100 days?

James Carville​

Honestly, if we’re just talking about Biden, it’s very difficult to find something to complain about. And to me his biggest attribute is that he’s not into “faculty lounge” politics.

Sean Illing​

“Faculty lounge” politics?

James Carville​

You ever get the sense that people in faculty lounges in fancy colleges use a different language than ordinary people? They come up with a word like “Latinx” that no one else uses. Or they use a phrase like “communities of color.” I don’t know anyone who speaks like that. I don’t know anyone who lives in a “community of color.” I know lots of white and Black and brown people and they all live in ... neighborhoods.

There’s nothing inherently wrong with these phrases. But this is not how people talk. This is not how voters talk. And doing it anyway is a signal that you’re talking one language and the people you want to vote for you are speaking another language. This stuff is harmless in one sense, but in another sense it’s not.

Sean Illing​

Is the problem the language or the fact that there are lots of voters who just don’t want to hear about race and racial injustice?

James Carville​

We have to talk about race. We should talk about racial injustice. What I’m saying is, we need to do it without using jargon-y language that’s unrecognizable to most people — including most Black people, by the way — because it signals that you’re trying to talk around them. This “too cool for school” shit doesn’t work, and we have to stop it.

There may be a group within the Democratic Party that likes this, but it ain’t the majority. And beyond that, if Democrats want power, they have to win in a country where 18 percent of the population controls 52 percent of the Senate seats. That’s a fact. That’s not changing. That’s what this whole damn thing is about.

Sean Illing​

Sounds like you got a problem with “wokeness,” James.

James Carville​

Wokeness is a problem and everyone knows it. It’s hard to talk to anybody today — and I talk to lots of people in the Democratic Party — who doesn’t say this. But they don’t want to say it out loud.

Sean Illing​

Why not?

James Carville​

Because they’ll get clobbered or canceled. And look, part of the problem is that lots of Democrats will say that we have to listen to everybody and we have to include every perspective, or that we don’t have to run a ruthless messaging campaign. Well, you kinda do. It really matters.

I always tell people that we’ve got to stop speaking Hebrew and start speaking Yiddish. We have to speak the way regular people speak, the way voters speak. It ain’t complicated. That’s how you connect and persuade. And we have to stop allowing ourselves to be defined from the outside.

Sean Illing​

What does that mean?

James Carville​

Take someone like Democratic Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. She’s obviously very bright. She knows how to draw a headline. In my opinion, some of her political aspirations are impractical and probably not going to happen. But that’s probably the worst thing that you can say about her.

Now take someone like Marjorie Taylor Greene, the new Republican congresswoman from Georgia. She’s absolutely loonier than a tune. We all know it. And yet, for some reason, the Democrats pay a bigger political price for AOC than Republicans pay for Greene. That’s the problem in a nutshell. And it’s ridiculous because AOC and Greene are not comparable in any way.

Sean Illing​

I hear versions of this argument about language and perception all the time, James. It’s an old problem. What’s the solution?

James Carville​

That’s why I’m doing this interview. Lots of smart people are going to read it, and hopefully they can figure out that which I can’t. But if you’re asking me, I think it’s because large parts of the country view us as an urban, coastal, arrogant party, and a lot gets passed through that filter. That’s a real thing. I don’t give a damn what anyone thinks about it — it’s a real phenomenon, and it’s damaging to the party brand.

 

[HotelAlphaWilcoKilo]

Sean Illing​

Part of the issue is that Republicans are going to paint the Dems as cop-hating, fetus-destroying Stalinists no matter what they say or do. So, yeah, I agree that Democrats should be smart and not say dumb, alienating things, but I’m also not sure how much control they have over how they’re perceived by half the country, especially when that half lives in an alternate media reality.

James Carville​

Right, but we can’t say, “Republicans are going to call us socialists no matter what, so let’s just run as out-and-out socialists.” That’s not the smartest thing to do. And maybe tweeting that we should abolish the police isn’t the smartest thing to do because almost ****ing no onewants to do that.

Here’s the deal: No matter how you look at the map, the only way Democrats can hold power is to build on their coalition, and that will have to include more rural white voters from across the country. Democrats are never going to win a majority of these voters. That’s the reality. But the difference between getting beat 80 to 20 and 72 to 28 is all the difference in the world.

So they just have to lose by less — that’s all.

Sean Illing​

So what do you want the Democrats to do differently besides not having people peddle politically toxic ideas like abolishing the police? How do they change the conversation so that Republicans aren’t defining them by their least popular expressions?

You’re a strategist, James. I want to know what you’d advise them to do. You don’t have any complaints about Biden because he’s getting stuff done. He’s putting money in people’s pockets. But the Democratic Party is a big coalition and you’re always going to have people promoting unpopular ideas, right? Whereas the Republican Party is more homogenous, and that lends itself to a tighter, more controlled message.

James Carville​

Tell me this: How is it we have all this talk about Jim Jordan (R-OH) and Matt Gaetz (R-FL)and we don’t talk about Dennis Hastert, the longest-serving Republican speaker of the House in Congress? If Hastert was a Democrat who we knew had a history of molesting kids and was actually sent to prison in 2016, he’d still be on Fox News every ****ing night. The Republicans would never shut the hell up about it.

So when Jim Jordan was pulling all these stunts with Anthony Fauci [Fauci was speaking at a congressional hearing about ending coronavirus precautions], why didn’t someone jump in and say, “Let me tell you something, Jim, if Fauci knew what you knew, if he knew that a doctor was molesting young people, he would’ve gone to the medical board yesterday. So you can go ahead and shut the **** up.” [Ed. note: Jordan denies knowing about the allegations of abuse when he was an assistant coach at Ohio State University.] I love that Congresswoman Maxine Waters told Jordan to “shut your mouth,” but that’s what I really wish a Democrat would say, and I wish they’d keep saying it over and over again.

Can I step back for a second and give you an example of the broader problem?

Sean Illing​

Sure.

James Carville​

Look at Florida. You now have Democrats saying Florida is a lost cause. Really? In 2018 in Florida, giving felons the right to vote got 64 percent. In 2020, a $15 minimum wage, which we have no chance of passing [federally], got 67 percent. Has anyone in the Democratic Party said maybe there’s nothing wrong with the state of Florida? Maybe the problem is the kind of campaigns we’re running?

If you gave me an environment in which the majority of voters wanted to expand the franchise to felons and raise the minimum wage, I should be able to win that. It’s certainly not a political environment I’m destined to lose in. But in Miami-Dade, all they talked about was defunding the police and Kamala Harris being the most liberal senator in the US Senate. And if you look all across the Rio Grande Valley, we lost all kinds of solidly blue voters. And the faculty lounge bullshit is a big part of it.

Sean Illing​

If you’re a Democrat, you could look at the state of play and say, “We’re winning. We won the White House. We won Congress. We have power. It ain’t perfect, but it ain’t a disaster either.”

James Carville​

We won the White House against a world-historical buffoon. And we came within 42,000 votes of losing. We lost congressional seats. We didn’t pick up state legislatures. So let’s not have an argument about whether or not we’re off-key in our messaging. We are. And we’re off because there’s too much jargon and there’s too much esoterica and it turns people off.

Sean Illing​

Not to beat a dead horse, but Democrats and Republicans are dealing with very different constituencies. Democrats have a big tent, they have to win different kinds of voters and that means making different kinds of appeals. Republicans can get away with shit that Democrats cannot.

James Carville​

Yeah, that’s a problem. We can only do what we can do. People always say to me, “Why don’t Democrats just lie like Republicans?” Because if they did, our voters wouldn’t stand for it. But I’m not saying we need to lie like they do. I’m saying, why not go after Gaetz and Jordan and link them to Hastert and the Republican Party over and over and over again? We have to take these small opportunities to define ourselves and the other side every damn time. And we don’t do it. We just don’t do it.

​

 

[Morrison71]

 

[dirtypool]

Wokeness gets carried away at times, but its only a problem if you let yourself be a perpetual victim of wokeness.

a lot of the people on this board who complain about wokeness all the time fit that category. Wokeness lives rent free in your guys heads

 

[HotelAlphaWilcoKilo]

Sean Illing​

Republicans aren’t just more comfortable lying, they’re more comfortable with slogans and sound bites, and that’s partly why they’re more effective at defining themselves and the Democrats.

James Carville​

Let me give you my favorite example of metropolitan, overeducated arrogance. Take the climate problem. Do you realize that climate is the only major social or political movement that I can think of that refuses to use emotion? Where’s the identifiable song? Where’s the bumper sticker? Where’s the slogan? Where’s the flag? Where’s the logo?


We don’t have it because with faculty politics what you do is appeal to reason. You don’t need the sloganeering and sound bites. That’s for simple people. All you need are those timetables and temperature charts, and from that, everyone will just get it.

That’s not how the world works; that’s not how people work. And Republicans are way more disciplined about taking a thing and branding it. Elites will roll their eyes at that, but I’d ask, “How’s that working out for you?” Most people agree with us on health care and minimum wage and Roe v. Wade and even on the climate.

So why can’t we leverage that?

Sean Illing​

What would you have Biden do to counter some of these messaging problems?

James Carville​

I’d have him pick up a phone. I’d have someone in the White House pick up the phone. And when someone in the party starts this jargon shit, I’d call them and say, “We’re only a vote away. Our approval rating is 60 percent. We got a chance to pick up seats in 2022, and if you did this, it would be very helpful to us.”

Sean Illing​

Are you sure those calls aren’t happening already?

James Carville​

Maybe they are, but they need to be more effective. And we need more of them.

Sean Illing​

There’s a philosophy on the left right now, which says the Democrats should pass everything they possibly can, no matter the costs, and trust that the voters will reward them on the back end.

Where do you land on that?

James Carville​

First of all, the Democratic Party can’t be more liberal than Sen. Joe Manchin. That’s the fact. We don’t have the votes. But I’ll say this, two of the most consequential political events in recent memory happened on the same day in January: the insurrection at the US Capitol and the Democrats winning those two seats in Georgia. Can’t overstate that.

But the Democrats can’t **** it up. They have to make the Republicans own that insurrection every day. They have to pound it. They have to call bookers on cable news shows. They have to get people to write op-eds. There will be all kinds of investigations and stories dripping out for god knows how long, and the Democrats should spend every day tying all of it to the Republican Party. They can’t sit back and wait for it to happen.

Hell, just imagine if it was a bunch of nonwhite people who stormed the Capitol. Imagine how Republicans would exploit that and make every news cycle about how the Dems are responsible for it. Every political debate would be about that. The Republicans would bludgeon the Democrats with it forever.

So whatever you think Republicans would do to us in that scenario, that’s exactly what the hell we need to do them.

 

[HotelAlphaWilcoKilo]

"The 'dismantle' progressives, of course, see him as a dinosaur who wants to stay comfortable in his racist whiteness."

 

[HotelAlphaWilcoKilo]

Wokeness gets carried away at times, but its only a problem if you let yourself be a perpetual victim of wokeness.

a lot of the people on this board who complain about wokeness all the time fit that category. Wokeness lives rent free in your guys heads

 

[torbee]

Not seeing a lot to argue with in what he’s saying.

Snobbery and looking down on people is a major problem for progressives. Myself included.

 

[dirtypool]

Keep shaking your fist angrily at the wokeness, ponyboy.

 

[HotelAlphaWilcoKilo]

Keep shaking your fist angrily at the wokeness, ponyboy.

Well I never! I was making a joke about you being a speed reader. In good faith! But you didn't even read it at all, that much is now obvious. Oh, well. Guess it's back to dOiNg ThE wOrK!

 

[dirtypool]

Well I never! I was making a joke about you being a speed reader. In good faith! But you didn't even read it at all, that much is now obvious. Oh, well. Guess it's back to dOiNg ThE wOrK!

Meh. Thread title says wokeness becoming a problem. Not interested in a wall of tl;dr text crying about wokeness.

 

[HotelAlphaWilcoKilo]

Meh. Thread title says wokeness becoming a problem. Not interested in a wall of tl;dr text crying about wokeness.

And yet here I am, like a gentleman, listening to you cry about crying about wokeness.

By the way, you didn't even read the thread title correctly. Meh.

 

[dirtypool]

And yet here I am, like a gentleman, listening to you cry about crying about wokeness.

By the way, you didn't even read the thread title correctly. Meh.

Sorry “wokeness is a problem”. My original point stands. Its only a problem if you obsess about it.

show me on the doll where wokeness touched you

 

[HotelAlphaWilcoKilo]

Its only a problem if you obsess about it.

I'm sure your theorem is universally applicable. "Race is only a problem if you obsess about it."

show me on the doll where wokeness touched you

"I'm only here for the bewbies."

 

[BlackNGoldBleeder]

I agree "wokeness" is problematic. The same as I believe the movement Trump inspired is bad for America.

It shouldn't be difficult to repudiate both.

 

[dirtypool]

I'm sure your theorem is universally applicable. "Race is only a problem if you obsess about it."

nah, i can take the race out of situations. Cop kneels on guys neck for 9 mins until he dies. Asshole should go to jail.

cop mistakes a gun for a taser. Cop should go to jail.

cop shoots an unarmed person in the back that is running away. Cop should go to jail

cop roughs up a 73 yr old with dementia because she walked out of walmart with $13 worth of merch and offered to pay when they stopped her in walmart. Cop should go to jail

ill agree that the race card is thrown out too often especially when the problem is much bigger like with over aggressive police

"I'm only here for the bewbies."

Wokeness touched you in the bewbies?

 

[HotelAlphaWilcoKilo]

I agree "wokeness" is problematic. The same as I believe the movement Trump inspired is bad for America.

It shouldn't be difficult to repudiate both.

I don't even think "wokeness" (which amusingly autocorrects to "woeness") is bad as the idea that there are social justice concerns we should be aware of as a country, as a society. Just as Critical Theory and Critical Race Theory are not some evil of themselves. They are ways to view the world. The problem with them and the ballooning Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion industry is that they are increasingly being touted ideologically, dogmatically. The amount of rhetorical gamesmanship that is employed to inoculate these ideas from criticism is a problem.

 

[Nole Lou]

I am on the opposite side of the spectrum him politically, but I get his frustration about constantly attaching to, and allowing themselves to be attached to, their least popular positions.

I think his premise that the Democrats somehow aren't comfortable with lying is awfully laughable. They've fully embraced, and right at the top, the Trump lesson that there is no consequence for lying. Biden easily lies (see Georgia voting law), and then Trump-like, simply refuses to back off it. And pretty rich for Bill Clinton's right hand guy to even talk about lying.

But he's over. I'm not convinced that there's anybody to stand against the left's woke wing, any more that anyone was able to stand against the right's anger wing. I hope there is, but I'm not confident.

 

[SSG T]

Not seeing a lot to argue with in what he’s saying.

Snobbery and looking down on people is a major problem for progressives. Myself included.

I try to only look down on racists, seditionists and those who support those two. If that means I act "elite" or woke, so be it. I try to go out of my way to not look down on someone I disagree with who is well intentioned and well spoken about an issue.

 

[THE_DEVIL]

Article title is misleading. This wasn't about wokeness it is about what Carville has said through out his political career. The dems suck at messaging and politics in general.

 

[BlackNGoldBleeder]

I don't even think "wokeness" (which amusingly autocorrects to "woeness") is bad as the idea that there are social justice concerns we should be aware of as a country, as a society. Just as Critical Theory and Critical Race Theory are not some evil of themselves. They are ways to view the world. The problem with them and the ballooning Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion industry is that they are increasingly being touted ideologically, dogmatically. The amount of rhetorical gamesmanship that is employed to inoculate these ideas from criticism is a problem.

Excellent response. I should have said certain aspects of the movement are problematic. I still think there are a lot of intellectual dishonesty and inconsistencies with "wokeness," though.

As to Critical Race Theory, I don't recall the main tenets of it being that radical or capricious when I studied it nearly two decades ago. I have no idea, though, how the theory has evolved over the last twenty years. I do think there is merit to a lot of the original tenets of it. The question becomes, how has society changed or improved since then?

 

[lucas80]

1. OP is super woke.
2. He learned how to cut and paste, and wants to impress us.

 

[HotelAlphaWilcoKilo]

1. OP is super woke.
2. He learned how to cut and paste, and wants to impress us.

Hey, it's a Vox piece. I'd be surprised if you hadn't already read it before brunch.

 

[Huey Grey]

Biden wins by 8 million votes. Carville says he barely won. I don't know what James is smoking. Also, in case Carville isn't aware, wokeness is what won the Dems Georgia and control of the Senate.

 

[Huey Grey]

Article title is misleading. This wasn't about wokeness it is about what Carville has said through out his political career. The dems suck at messaging and politics in general.

It seems like he wants us to talk like idiots. In which case, no thanks. I agree that Dems lose the messaging war a lot, but I attribute that to them giving up on narratives when Rs start to bitch. Talking like idiots isn't why Rs win the messaging war. They win because they relentlessly stick to narratives.

 

[binsfeldcyhawk2]

Sorry “wokeness is a problem”. My original point stands. Its only a problem if you obsess about it.

show me on the doll where wokeness touched you

I think Carvilles point is it’s a political problem and I think he’s right.

Two reasons many folks in the middle voted for Biden.
1) not trump
2) viewed as a moderate

 

[joelbc1]

Carville is a political savant. The guy is on point. No one understands...and explainsz the shortcomings of the DNC better than Carville. He may be painful to listen to...for both Dems and Repubbers, but the guy understands ( and knows) American politics and how it works..and how to convey the message.

 

[FAUlty Gator]

I believe wokeness is a corner many TV stations have painted themselves into. For instance...Zero people watch Joy Reid and she’s certifiably nuts. Fact. If it was anyone else in their 7pm slot they would have been canned by MSNBC long ago. But with Joy, they can’t because...well...woke. It has to be killing them. She’s down 30% YTD.

There are others like Trevor Noah whose longevity remain a mystery. Will be interesting to see how long Chad lasts on TBS. It’s hemorrhaging viewers every week.

Of course, there’s a good chance I’m completely wrong, so...yeah.

 

[anon_b29nm7v7dwp6r]

I mean....I would consider myself a solid blue liberal voter and I don’t know that he’s wrong.

Sometimes I hear some new term or phrase or slogan and all I can think to myself is “who came up with that?” The GOP is going to beat you over the head with a club either way, no sense in handing them a bigger one.

And it’s way, way past time for the Dems to get up to speed on modern politics....the old rules and polite politics don’t work anymore...and it’s all about power. Cant legislate or reform Jack squat if you don’t win elections....

 

[ft254]

Not seeing a lot to argue with in what he’s saying.

Snobbery and looking down on people is a major problem for progressives. Myself included.

Nope. Conservatives choose to ignore and reject science and knowledge-based positions and matters. This "wokeness" is a perfect example. I didn't know what the term meant and did searches to find out. It is not clear among the right what it means.

A stupid buzzword circulating, along with socialism, communism, and now "stop the steal". They latch onto a word someone spouts on Fox, and it becomes a word of the day. The minions have no idea of what the words or phrases mean, they just buy off on the propaganda.

I chastise the right for falling for bullshit they are spoon fed by the right wing media. If they knew the effect, they wouldn't be taken in. I won't apologize for what appears to them to be my attitude. I spend my time learning.

 

[The Tradition]

Nope. Conservatives choose to ignore and reject science and knowledge-based positions and matters. This "wokeness" is a perfect example. I didn't know what the term meant and did searches to find out. It is not clear among the right what it means.

A stupid buzzword circulating, along with socialism, communism, and now "stop the steal". They latch onto a word someone spouts on Fox, and it becomes a word of the day. The minions have no idea of what the words or phrases mean, they just buy off on the propaganda.

I chastise the right for falling for bullshit they are spoon fed by the right wing media. If they knew the effect, they wouldn't be taken in. I won't apologize for what appears to them to be my attitude. I spend my time learning.

Republicans didn't invent the word "woke".

 

[sober_teacher]

Republicans didn't invent the word "woke".

no, but they have extended and distorted what it initially described.

 

[Eternal Return]

Excellent response. I should have said certain aspects of the movement are problematic. I still think there are a lot of intellectual dishonesty and inconsistencies with "wokeness," though.

As to Critical Race Theory, I don't recall the main tenets of it being that radical or capricious when I studied it nearly two decades ago. I have no idea, though, how the theory has evolved over the last twenty years. I do think there is merit to a lot of the original tenets of it. The question becomes, how has society changed or improved since then?

What I know about CRT's history is that it began as a legal reform theory within the field of law. When it was restricted exclusively to law, it was useful and beneficial.

When it got picked up within the field of education is when the disasters started. I believe the intentions were sincere, but CRT's principles are rooted in legal critique. It does NOT have the philosophical chops to be applied to education because it doesn't fundamentally have a theory of what it means to be human. What I mean is, it lacks a conceptual framework to understand or guide humans outside of a legal context. It does not have a well developed ontology, metaphysics, or any other basis for claiming every human is "equal" to every other in ways that mean anything outside of U.S. law. Without that philosophical justification for the meaning of humans, it does more damage than good outside of the law.

That's why I have no problem with the Idaho legislature banning CRT from education in schools funded by the state. That's not its "home."

Furthermore, CRT is inherently patriarchal without possessing the hermeneutic or analytical methods to critique itself and any theory that isn't self-critical is dangerous because forming conceptual frameworks for understanding the world that are as limited and broken as CRT is going to result in erroneous conclusions about human nature and human relationships.

But CRT has no issues with property rights and commerce in the way they are addressed in the U.S. Constitution. So ... how exactly does CRT map out an escape from patriarchy? It doesn't. It can't even coherently define patriarchy because it doesn't have the necessary concepts to even construct a coherent definition of it.

It's maddening to me that it's got it's fingers into so many institutions in the U.S. because it's a surface-level theory and approach that just confuses dogma with thinking and free thinking cannot be dogmatic through basic definitions of those words' meanings.

In addition to all of that, it has nothing coherent to say about economics or class. If it advocates for anything it's for black and brown people to have the same percentages of socioeconomic stratification as white people currently have within America. That's progress?

CRT is WAY behind "traditional" philosophy in terms of identifying inequities and how to create fairness.

The idea seems to be limited to getting a tiny percentage of black and brown people to join the lofty perches of wealth and power historically occupied by the tiniest percentage of white people. It's as if being poor and disenfranchised as a black or brown person will be better if just a tiny percentage of black and brown people gain positions of power and wealth to control and exploit the majority of black and brown Americans--as if exploitation and abuse from a person of one's own "race" is more tolerable than enduring the same from someone of a different "race."

How? The emotional and psychological boon of seeing Kamala Harris as VP is going to magically make personal poverty and powerlessness more tolerable? Is that the goal? Because without being able to coherently recognize and effectively communicate what is patriarchal or "white privilege" using reason instead of emotionally-charged judgmental and accusatory language, CRT and "wokeness" are as bad as Trumpism in terms of the damage they can do to this country.

 

[Eternal Return]

Let's see if I can say this another way.

Any philosophy worthy of being incorporated by education and the public at large needs to have an idea of how societies should be grounded, developed, and formed with philosophical room for critical future transformations based on new and ongoing discoveries about humanity and the world.

CRT (and especially "wokeness," which is mostly an attitudinal dogma pretending to be a rigorous self-reflective practice) has nothing like that. It's like allowing a Little League team to play against the Dodgers in the World Series (CRT as a game kids play while the Dodgers represent the world as-it-is).

What I want to say most to people thinking wokeness deserves regard and a high perch within all institutions governing our lives is that you are pert-near as delusional as the QAnon nuts. The thinking is even more dangerous because its torch bearers are far more intellectually advanced and politically powerful than their QAnon and white supremacy counterparts.

And while people are genuinely trying to use some CRT and wokeness principles for self-reflection, it's far more common to see wokeness advocates engage in shaming as one of their primary practices of public discourse. How in the hell can I respect that on any level and maintain my personal dignity and integrity?

It's the same discursive tactic the far-right fringes use. Wokeness engages people with receptive moral frameworks (progressives, liberals, Democrats) the same way QAnon and white supremacists conspiracy theories speak to moral frameworks with built-in receptivity (Republicans, racists, weak-minded conservatives, non-thinking nihilists).

A couple points on that. One, self-identified Dems and whatnot seem to believe they have achieved some lofty critical-thinking stratosphere immune from intellectual and emotional manipulation. That belief, alone, accounts for a significant blindness to their own vulnerabilities and susceptibilities whether they are "inside their bubble" or outside of it. There's way more conformist peer pressure going on within the various "identities" of the left and that has prevented any serious examination of the truth claims of CRT and wokeness by the academic and political left.

Two, conservative political philosophy and academic rigor has so deteriorated that there aren't any conservative thinkers worth their salt to make the critique I've just made. That leaves us poorer as a country in terms of meaningful and helpful critique.

That's why wokeness is on the verge of destroying Democratic political momentum. There are enough people in the country who may not be able to articulate exactly what makes them uneasy about CRT and wokeness, but they definitely sense, instinctually with some degree of insight if not flawlessly, that there is something seriously wrong with this theory and movement.

 

[noleclone2]

Carville is a political savant. The guy is on point. No one understands...and explainsz the shortcomings of the DNC better than Carville. He may be painful to listen to...for both Dems and Repubbers, but the guy understands ( and knows) American politics and how it works..and how to convey the message.

This. It was a fun read and he was right on a lot of it. I liked the part where he compared AOC and MGT and how somehow the Democrats are punished more for AOC. I think the Democrats have a generational problem where the ones 18-39 have a totally different view on where the country should be going, much more liberal, aggressive on social programs, and unbending. The older ones want moderation, is wary of the spending, and wants to snuff out the GOPs brainwashing of rural white America while the opportunity is here.

 

[Eternal Return]

CRT sells its epistemology as its strength, but its epistemology is almost entirely borrowed from the "white man's world" of names.

Look at Latinx. First of all, Latina and Latino refers to gendered naming of women and men from Latin America. What is Latin America? That's the name Europeans and Americans long ago gave Mexicans and all other nationalities to the South, cementing their identities as descendants of Portuguese and Spanish imperialists while completely ignoring the fact that there has been intermixing with indigenous peoples for centuries.

Also, odd to choose to adopt "Latin America" based on the linguistic history dating back to Portugal and Spain. Yes, they are Latin languages, but so are French, Italian, Sicilian, and Romanian. So all citizens of all North and South American countries who have Italian, French, and Romanian in their ancestry are technically "Latin Americans."

But what we're considering Latin American actually seems to be people who have a Mexican, Central American, South American, or Caribbean heritage in terms of speaking Spanish or Portuguese in various dialects.

If they can't even figure out a name for people from countries where Spanish and Portuguese are spoken outside of Spain and Portugal without using the colonialist terms then how can the thought proposed by CRT be trusted in schools?

These are really basic critiques and CRT doesn't seem to have a counterargument at all.

 

[Rudolph]

Not seeing a lot to argue with in what he’s saying.

Snobbery and looking down on people is a major problem for progressives. Myself included.

Also speaks to the fragility of people, though, who feel slighted by this type of shit. Trumpism is rooted in this psychology—to an amusing degree.

 

[soybean]

Biden wins by 8 million votes. Carville says he barely won. I don't know what James is smoking. Also, in case Carville isn't aware, wokeness is what won the Dems Georgia and control of the Senate.

If it wasn't for Carville last spring there would have been no Joe Biden and his 8 million vote victory last fall.

 

[z_ape]

Wokeness gets carried away at times, but its only a problem if you let yourself be a perpetual victim of wokeness.

a lot of the people on this board who complain about wokeness all the time fit that category. Wokeness lives rent free in your guys heads

Progressives talk/push woke stuff all the time and so those that don't like it have a constant stream of material to criticize.

Do I think all this woke stuff is always a big deal? Of course not.

But it is worth paying attention to, it could have deleterious effects on society depending on how far it goes, speaking more broadly.

And it's also worth caring about from the perspective of political strategy.

 

[CarolinaHawkeye]

trumpbaggers need even more to complain about.