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tomhawk80907

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Mar 15, 2006
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as to why we aren't and haven't been competitive for so long. I don't follow with anywhere near the regularity or intensity that I once did but it is still troubling to see so many teams pass us by.
Not looking for granular details just honest assessment happened and can it be righted.
 
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as to why we aren't and haven't been competitive for so long. I don't follow with anywhere near the regularity or intensity that I once did but it is still troubling to see so many teams pass us by.
Not looking for granular details just honest assessment happened and can it be righted.
I'm sorry, but honest assessment is not possible. This discussion will devolve into a cesspool/dumpster fire thread.
 
Gable is gone and the hotbed for recruits is in the East. Live with it for a while...
 
Too many seasoned studs that aren't allowing "miracles" to occur come tourney time that Iowa counted on in the past.
 
In 10 words or less: stopped getting top recruits from 2010-15. Getting them now.
Bingo. Here's the correct answer. For the fans stopping in for their annual post-Big-Tens gripe fest, give it until 2019. We'll be competing for titles again by then, and probably winning our share.

If you're expecting a return to the 1980's and 1990's, probably best if you stick with football and hoops. Times have changed.
 
Bingo. Here's the correct answer. For the fans stopping in for their annual post-Big-Tens gripe fest, give it until 2019. We'll be competing for titles again by then, and probably winning our share.

If you're expecting a return to the 1980's and 1990's, probably best if you stick with football and hoops. Times have changed.

The truth share set you free.... unfortunately.
 
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Bingo. Here's the correct answer. For the fans stopping in for their annual post-Big-Tens gripe fest, give it until 2019. We'll be competing for titles again by then, and probably winning our share.

If you're expecting a return to the 1980's and 1990's, probably best if you stick with football and hoops. Times have changed.
If they stick with football and hoops then what hope do they have?:rolleyes:
 
as to why we aren't and haven't been competitive for so long. I don't follow with anywhere near the regularity or intensity that I once did but it is still troubling to see so many teams pass us by.
Not looking for granular details just honest assessment happened and can it be righted.

I've thought a lot about this a lot over the past few years, the good thinking on this board is the catalyst.

The game is changing / has changed. Evolution is a part of the top end of all competitive endeavors, business, athletic, or otherwise. The top end teams / individuals of all sports adapt, ahead of the game, which is what makes these individuals and teams stand out and succeed. Consider baseball: where have the 400 hitters gone? The pitchers adapted. Look @ the NBA. The big men - Kareem, Shaq, Wilt - of yesteryear gave way to the big athletic slashing type players we see today. Team Sky in cycling; dominance in the one day races, as well as the grand tours the past 7-8 years. Why is drug use a big deal? Think Nike Oregon Project. Whether it is legal (TUE's) or illegal, it is a way to get an edge to stay ahead. At the front end of this greatness is a mind or a coach that recognizes this and is one step ahead of the game. In wrestling, we see Cael, Dresser, and Smith. TnT are right there and making moves to adapt and compete, as others have mentioned, by expanding the recruiting base. We are a couple years behind. It is fascinating to watch. Gable changed the game. Cael changed it. Iowa must evolve to keep pace. In doing so, how much will Iowa stay true to its roots? Is there a place for Iowa Style in the NCAA wrestling environment? Can it succeed? All good questions that need to be considered, and should be.
 
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The fact is that prior to the Kem/Marinelli signing the top ranked recruit in Iowa since Evans has been Stoll at number 14 overall. Gilman was #16 and no one else was inside the top 20.

By rankings Stoll would have been the 13th best recruit at Penn State over that time and he would have been the 14th best at Ohio State.

Guys ranked 12 or higher that signed with Ohio State over that time.
Myles Martin
KeShawn Hayes
Tomasello
Hunter Stieber
Campalanato
Bo Jordan
Micah Jordan
Snyder
Haines
White
Pletcher
Kenny Courts- Lowest ranked at 12th
Chris Phillips

Guys ranked 12 or higher that signed with Penn State over that time.
Zain
McIntoish
Nico
Guilibon
Nolf
Nevills
Nickal
Cortez-Lowest ranked at 12th
Joesph
Hall
Suriano
Manville

Now Iowa has:
Kemerer, Marinelli, Warner, Lee, Teasdale, and Murin that are all ranked ahead of Stoll and Gilman in their classes. With more coming!

Plus, you can add Carter Happel and Kaleb Young who are ranked 19th and 25 respectively in their classes. That is Sam Brooks (20) and Cork Clark (23), which is what you want to fill in your "hole" weights on National Championship teams.
 
Iowa has been about 1-2 elite recruits short for the most part. Imagine Iowa would have just got that extra commitment from say Heil or an IMART type. Just one more Finals type guy plus a healthy Stoll and this team is looking tOSU and PSU right in the face.

What I am more perplexed about is that the Iowa high school products like a Kelly, Carton, Mark Ballweg type havent out punted their coverage in Bigs or a NCAA tournament in forever. That use to be something you could almost count on back in the Gable days. IMO recruits are way more prepared than ever on a national scene, hence the rankings are better than ever forecast plus kids are in better shape = Its not the same plying field Gable dealt with. The parents living room is on par with te practice room for importance.

I agree I love watching Nolf. he is 100% Iowa Style. If he was a bit more angry in his style on the mat I would think it was Jimmy Zalesky. Both have same urgency for sure but Nolf looks so polite kicking your tail.
 
The fact is that prior to the Kem/Marinelli signing the top ranked recruit in Iowa since Evans has been Stoll at number 14 overall. Gilman was #16 and no one else was inside the top 20.

By rankings Stoll would have been the 13th best recruit at Penn State over that time and he would have been the 14th best at Ohio State.

Guys ranked 12 or higher that signed with Ohio State over that time.
Myles Martin
KeShawn Hayes
Tomasello
Hunter Stieber
Campalanato
Bo Jordan
Micah Jordan
Snyder
Haines
White
Pletcher
Kenny Courts- Lowest ranked at 12th
Chris Phillips

Guys ranked 12 or higher that signed with Penn State over that time.
Zain
McIntoish
Nico
Guilibon
Nolf
Nevills
Nickal
Cortez-Lowest ranked at 12th
Joesph
Hall
Suriano
Manville

Now Iowa has:
Kemerer, Marinelli, Warner, Lee, Teasdale, and Murin that are all ranked ahead of Stoll and Gilman in their classes. With more coming!

Plus, you can add Carter Happel and Kaleb Young who are ranked 19th and 25 respectively in their classes. That is Sam Brooks (20) and Cork Clark (23), which is what you want to fill in your "hole" weights on National Championship teams.

You summed it all up very succinctly.

Now I'm going to go take some Dramamine and see if it will quiet my stomach. Hate to lose my breakfast so quickly.
loudlaff.gif
 
The fact is that prior to the Kem/Marinelli signing the top ranked recruit in Iowa since Evans has been Stoll at number 14 overall. Gilman was #16 and no one else was inside the top 20.

By rankings Stoll would have been the 13th best recruit at Penn State over that time and he would have been the 14th best at Ohio State.

Guys ranked 12 or higher that signed with Ohio State over that time.
Myles Martin
KeShawn Hayes
Tomasello
Hunter Stieber
Campalanato
Bo Jordan
Micah Jordan
Snyder
Haines
White
Pletcher
Kenny Courts- Lowest ranked at 12th
Chris Phillips

Guys ranked 12 or higher that signed with Penn State over that time.
Zain
McIntoish
Nico
Guilibon
Nolf
Nevills
Nickal
Cortez-Lowest ranked at 12th
Joesph
Hall
Suriano
Manville

Now Iowa has:
Kemerer, Marinelli, Warner, Lee, Teasdale, and Murin that are all ranked ahead of Stoll and Gilman in their classes. With more coming!

Plus, you can add Carter Happel and Kaleb Young who are ranked 19th and 25 respectively in their classes. That is Sam Brooks (20) and Cork Clark (23), which is what you want to fill in your "hole" weights on National Championship teams.
Wow. There is the 30,000 foot mic drop.
 
Bingo. Here's the correct answer. For the fans stopping in for their annual post-Big-Tens gripe fest, give it until 2019. We'll be competing for titles again by then, and probably winning our share.

If you're expecting a return to the 1980's and 1990's, probably best if you stick with football and hoops. Times have changed.

Thanks for all the input its good to know.

I was there for the end of kurdlemeirer (sp), and the beginning of gable and while I realize those days are never coming back hope we show better in the future.
 
The fact is that prior to the Kem/Marinelli signing the top ranked recruit in Iowa since Evans has been Stoll at number 14 overall. Gilman was #16 and no one else was inside the top 20.

By rankings Stoll would have been the 13th best recruit at Penn State over that time and he would have been the 14th best at Ohio State.

Guys ranked 12 or higher that signed with Ohio State over that time.
Myles Martin
KeShawn Hayes
Tomasello
Hunter Stieber
Campalanato
Bo Jordan
Micah Jordan
Snyder
Haines
White
Pletcher
Kenny Courts- Lowest ranked at 12th
Chris Phillips

Guys ranked 12 or higher that signed with Penn State over that time.
Zain
McIntoish
Nico
Guilibon
Nolf
Nevills
Nickal
Cortez-Lowest ranked at 12th
Joesph
Hall
Suriano
Manville

Now Iowa has:
Kemerer, Marinelli, Warner, Lee, Teasdale, and Murin that are all ranked ahead of Stoll and Gilman in their classes. With more coming!

Plus, you can add Carter Happel and Kaleb Young who are ranked 19th and 25 respectively in their classes. That is Sam Brooks (20) and Cork Clark (23), which is what you want to fill in your "hole" weights on National Championship teams.
Yet while this was happening our coaches and big portions of the fan base ignored it or even worse defended it. I recall those posting about this 3-5 yrs ago being ripped for it, including me.
I'm glad we seem to be adapting our recruiting efforts but we need to lead on things like this, not follow... so we aren't asking the same questions in another 5 years.
 
Iowa has been about 1-2 elite recruits short for the most part. Imagine Iowa would have just got that extra commitment from say Heil or an IMART type. Just one more Finals type guy plus a healthy Stoll and this team is looking tOSU and PSU right in the face.

What I am more perplexed about is that the Iowa high school products like a Kelly, Carton, Mark Ballweg type havent out punted their coverage in Bigs or a NCAA tournament in forever. That use to be something you could almost count on back in the Gable days. IMO recruits are way more prepared than ever on a national scene, hence the rankings are better than ever forecast plus kids are in better shape = Its not the same plying field Gable dealt with. The parents living room is on par with te practice room for importance.

I agree I love watching Nolf. he is 100% Iowa Style. If he was a bit more angry in his style on the mat I would think it was Jimmy Zalesky. Both have same urgency for sure but Nolf looks so polite kicking your tail.
This. Iowa has been thee "guy" short. Thee guy who is going to go out there and rack up bonus points on his way to a championship.

This team with a healthy Stoll, and a healthy Clark all year, would be right in the thick of things if Meyer or Carton would make an unexpected run.
 
What were the rankings of the recruits of that 1997 Iowa team that still has the record?
 
This. Iowa has been thee "guy" short. Thee guy who is going to go out there and rack up bonus points on his way to a championship.

This team with a healthy Stoll, and a healthy Clark all year, would be right in the thick of things if Meyer or Carton would make an unexpected run.
Penn St could also play the injury card. Suriano would have scored a buncha points at B10s and their hurt 133 would have scored some.
 
Sorry, really long but the seats a assembly hall were too tight to post so I saved it all for one post back home.
Some of our guys, for the lack of a better term, are Cannon Fodder by choice. From their feet, they wait for their opponent to go on offense and react, hoping this will open the door for them to score, they ride with the mentality of holding on as long as they can simply to stay in the top position. While that may work when they are wrestling MSU or Indiana, it’s not going to win matches when they wrestle good competition, unless they have the skill set to make it work, and many don’t.

BS lost to Jordan trying to create a repeat performance of their earlier meeting, but because of an escape, he didn’t have a back-up plan to win the match. AM lost trying to hang on for dear life, counting on a riding time point and no opponent escape point to win the match, but when you give up a last minute escape, your whole plan is shot to hell.

Russian Ties are an old school and very effective way to control your opponent, if you have the skill to score from that position, perfect example, Cory Clark, but AM does not have this ability and BS only has that ability on inferior wrestlers. You have to have other ways to score, perfect example Cory Clark, he has a nice single leg, he can hit the high crotch, he has scored off snap downs and duck unders, he is a good scrambler, and by the way, when healthy, he is always working to score from top.

I was actually a little scared watching Gilman change his game plan in the finals from catch and release to riding for the win. It worked for him because he is a superior wrestler, but not something I was happy to see.

psu and fosu guys are ALWAYS looking to score, from their feet, from the top position and even from bottom. This is not some new invention that carl came up with, like dodgeball, this is what Iowa used to be, this is what Tom and Terry were as wrestlers, this is what our upper weights Ed and Lou used to do, it’s what Lincoln did and Joe Williams and Barry, Zelesky, Ironside, McGuinness etc… This is the Iowa style and some of our guys have lost it or never possessed it. If you are excited about watching Kem wrestle, there is a reason for it, it’s because that’s how Iowa used to wrestle. Always move forward, always look to score.

I get it, give us a real back up HWT and Holloway moves down and is a really good 197, scoring us some points. Wilke did the best he could up at 97, Gunther and Carton out kicked their coverage for stretches this season, but personal bests and crossed fingers don’t win championships. Playing defense does not win championships. These last few seasons Iowa as a team and individually has been wrestling “not to lose”, instead of wrestling to win (ask the Falcons how that turned out in the super bowl). It’s cost us many matches and resulted in poor team results.

There is good news, TNT are great coaches and their re-focused dedication to recruiting the best of the best is paying off. But no matter who is representing us on the mat, the mentality needs to be about scoring, not trying to eek out a win. Get on your offense, if it’s not good enough, then it’s not, but trying to hang on for the win 8 out of 10 matches is silly and is backfiring. Alex and BS are both more talented than that.
 
I noticed Gunther did not fare well in both 2-day tourneys this season. I don't recall Carton and Wilcke's Midlands results, but these three seemed to perform better in duals.
 
psu and fosu guys are ALWAYS looking to score, from their feet, from the top position and even from bottom.

I normally enjoy your posts but have to disagree with this delusional statement.
Lets take PSU for example
Suriano isn't a scoring machine. Their 133's are turtles.
Gillabong likes to hump ankles. He isn't always looking to score.
149- Zain is a clinger against BS and Collica. He stalled out his win in Carver. He is an animal against lesser guys and wrestlers like Jordan who are scared to go against him.
McCutcheon is a snoozer.
Nevills runs from the top Hwts. I was able to stream all sessions and watched Nevills run from Medberry.
50% of Penn States team does the opposite of what you just claimed. More than 50% of their team don't look to score from top. This is really sad considering their team is full of top ranked recruits.

Ohio State 125, 141, 149, 157, 165, and 174 are all conservative and boring. Tomasello isn't an offensive juggernaut but will give him a pass. Their 197 and Hwt are great fun to watch. I think it is fair to say that 60% of their team wrestles the exact opposite of what you claim. That is also pretty bad considering the recruiting rankings.

I would pick watching Sammy Brooks, Gman, Kemdawg, and a healthy Clark wrestle over any Ohio State guy. Throw a healthy Stoll in there as well. Nikki and Nolf are a lot of fun to watch. Nolf should have came to Iowa because he is the definition of Iowa style. It is apparent his formative years were influenced by an Iowa coach. Carl just sits back and tries to not screw him up.
 
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I normally enjoy your posts but have to disagree with this delusional statement.
Lets take PSU for example
Suriano isn't a scoring machine. Their 133's are turtles.
Gillabong likes to hump ankles. He isn't always looking to score.
149- Zain is a clinger against BS and Collica. He stalled out his win in Carver. He is an animal against lesser guys and wrestlers like Jordan who are scared to go against him.
McCutcheon is a snoozer.
Nevills runs from the top Hwts. I was able to stream all sessions and watched Nevills run from Medberry.
50% of Penn States team does the opposite of what you just claimed. More than 50% of their team don't look to score from top. This is really sad considering their team is full of top ranked recruits.

Ohio State 125, 141, 149, 157, 165, and 174 are all conservative and boring. Tomasello isn't an offensive juggernaut but will give him a pass. Their 197 and Hwt are great fun to watch. I think it is fair to say that 60% of their team wrestles the exact opposite of what you claim. That is also pretty bad considering the recruiting rankings.

I would pick watching Sammy Brooks, Gman, Kemdawg, and a healthy Clark wrestle over any Ohio State guy. Throw a healthy Stoll in there as well. Nikki and Nolf are a lot of fun to watch. Nolf should have came to Iowa because he is the definition of Iowa style. It is apparent his formative years were influenced by an Iowa coach. Carl just sits back and tries to not screw him up.
So even though Retherford leads the most dominant wrestler category for most points per match, he can only run it up on bums and those who are scared of him.

And you criticize many of your fellow posters here daily for being delusional?

o_O
 
So even though Retherford leads the most dominant wrestler category for most points per match, he can only run it up on bums and those who are scared of him.

And you criticize many of your fellow posters here daily for being delusional?

o_O
I didn't include him in the boring category for my 50% if that will let you sleep any better. Way to pick one small part and try to discredit the rest of the post. Why are Penn State fans so sensitive about what's said on other teams boards?
 
Slightly OT, but the first B1G school that switches to two-piece unis is going to have a recruiting advantage for a brief time. No pun intended.
95Gxa3Qy44EfeuDa6gO0.jpg
 
Alternate theory (with a tip o' the hat to some hard core PSU fans and FLO's Willie for these insights):

Cael develops HS wrestlers into AA's and champions better than anyone else. TnT are amateurs, and just can't develop wrestlers like Cael.

TnT may start with a guy ranked pretty low, say 108th (Grothus) or 136th (Rhoads) and they don't turn into national champions. But that low ranking was irrelevant.

Cael can start with, say, a Cadet or Jr World Champion and the very best HS kids at virtually every single weight, and they go on to AA status or national champions. But that high ranking was irrelevant.

The fact that Cael didn't have the same development success at ISU is also irrelevant. Somehow, between ISU an PSU, Cael acquired superhuman coaching abilities that no other coach can match.

All bow down before Cael.
 
I normally enjoy your posts but have to disagree with this delusional statement.
Lets take PSU for example
Suriano isn't a scoring machine. Their 133's are turtles.
Gillabong likes to hump ankles. He isn't always looking to score.
149- Zain is a clinger against BS and Collica. He stalled out his win in Carver. He is an animal against lesser guys and wrestlers like Jordan who are scared to go against him.
McCutcheon is a snoozer.
Nevills runs from the top Hwts. I was able to stream all sessions and watched Nevills run from Medberry.
50% of Penn States team does the opposite of what you just claimed. More than 50% of their team don't look to score from top. This is really sad considering their team is full of top ranked recruits.

Ohio State 125, 141, 149, 157, 165, and 174 are all conservative and boring. Tomasello isn't an offensive juggernaut but will give him a pass. Their 197 and Hwt are great fun to watch. I think it is fair to say that 60% of their team wrestles the exact opposite of what you claim. That is also pretty bad considering the recruiting rankings.

I would pick watching Sammy Brooks, Gman, Kemdawg, and a healthy Clark wrestle over any Ohio State guy. Throw a healthy Stoll in there as well. Nikki and Nolf are a lot of fun to watch. Nolf should have came to Iowa because he is the definition of Iowa style. It is apparent his formative years were influenced by an Iowa coach. Carl just sits back and tries to not screw him up.
Ding ding ding we have a winner. This is the most dominant nonsense post of the year. It would be hard to top.
 
I normally enjoy your posts but have to disagree with this delusional statement.
Lets take PSU for example
Suriano isn't a scoring machine. Their 133's are turtles.
Gillabong likes to hump ankles. He isn't always looking to score.
149- Zain is a clinger against BS and Collica. He stalled out his win in Carver. He is an animal against lesser guys and wrestlers like Jordan who are scared to go against him.
McCutcheon is a snoozer.
Nevills runs from the top Hwts. I was able to stream all sessions and watched Nevills run from Medberry.
50% of Penn States team does the opposite of what you just claimed. More than 50% of their team don't look to score from top. This is really sad considering their team is full of top ranked recruits.

Ohio State 125, 141, 149, 157, 165, and 174 are all conservative and boring. Tomasello isn't an offensive juggernaut but will give him a pass. Their 197 and Hwt are great fun to watch. I think it is fair to say that 60% of their team wrestles the exact opposite of what you claim. That is also pretty bad considering the recruiting rankings.

I would pick watching Sammy Brooks, Gman, Kemdawg, and a healthy Clark wrestle over any Ohio State guy. Throw a healthy Stoll in there as well. Nikki and Nolf are a lot of fun to watch. Nolf should have came to Iowa because he is the definition of Iowa style. It is apparent his formative years were influenced by an Iowa coach. Carl just sits back and tries to not screw him up.

Congrats to Gilman and Brooks with their wins! Both are very entertaining to watch (which extends to their great interviews) along with Clark and Kemerer.

I'm curious about which 5 Penn State guys you would consider boring. I understand Gulibon, McCutcheon and our backups at 133 but who are the other 2? Suriano actually has a higher bonus % (58%) than Retherford as a true freshman and followed his loss to Gilman with 5 straight bonus wins. I didn't see Nevills running from Medberry but did see him pin 3 wrestlers at the tourney. Joseph? Hall?
 
Alternate theory (with a tip o' the hat to some hard core PSU fans and FLO's Willie for these insights):

Cael develops HS wrestlers into AA's and champions better than anyone else. TnT are amateurs, and just can't develop wrestlers like Cael.

TnT may start with a guy ranked pretty low, say 108th (Grothus) or 136th (Rhoads) and they don't turn into national champions. But that low ranking was irrelevant.

Cael can start with, say, a Cadet or Jr World Champion and the very best HS kids at virtually every single weight, and they go on to AA status or national champions. But that high ranking was irrelevant.

The fact that Cael didn't have the same development success at ISU is also irrelevant. Somehow, between ISU an PSU, Cael acquired superhuman coaching abilities that no other coach can match.

All bow down before Cael.
Cleaned out a barn to make all those straw men
 
Jason Nolf is 100% Iowa style - that's as far as that thought need go.

This is 100 percent true. I loved watching Taylor, Nolf, Nickel, Ruth...and the rest just like I love watching Ramos, Matt m, and met calf. Always a spot for that type of wrestling
 
In 10 words or less: stopped getting top recruits from 2010-15. Getting them now.
right on, though still not sure we are getting enough. In Kem's class, who is next highest recruit? We have a couple pretty good Iowa guys from that class, but after that, its guys who didn't even win state. In Marinelli/Happel/Turk class, those guys are good, but after that? Getting Lee and Warner obviously great, but Murin projects to Happel/Turk weight classes, doesn't he? If we can keep Teasdale, great, but need more. I agree though, starting in the right direction. Its all about the wrestling clubs now, and kids come in so much further advanced than they used to. A lot of guys, with exceptions of course, are way more developed when they get to college than they used to be. Many of them don't even develop that much in the high school rooms. Its all about the clubs. Have to be a little more creative getting these kids money.
 
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