554 children under the age of 12 killed by gun violence

[What Would Jesus Do?]

Part or your confusion comes from what is being reported in the media vs what is actually the law. There is no gun show loophole. Any dealer selling at a gun show has to do a background check the same as if he was selling at his store.

I've only been to 1 gun show (last spring) and I wasn't there intending to buy a gun (although I was tempted a couple of times).

That said, my impression was that if I had wanted a gun I could have bought one. I didn't see any evidence that background checks were being conducted. And I did see several people buy guns, a majority of which were cash transactions. NTTAWWT. Did I just miss the background checks because I didn't know what I was looking for?

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

Huey if you are too stupid to understand these 3 things you are hopeless. Forks do not make people fat, pencils do not miss spell words, guns do not kill people.

Yes, yes, we all get that these are the tools and the person wields the tools. But the fact is that sometimes the tools are inappropriate or misused.

If I give my china shop workers a tool box with a hammer in it and I end up with a lot of broken china, and hammers are implicated a high percentage of the time, the hammer is definitely going to get my attention as a problem.

If I think my workers need hammers for some worthwhile functions, maybe I try to substitute better/safer hammers for the ones that seem to be problematic.

No point in beating this metaphor to death, I'm sure you get the drift.

The point is that even if it's a human that (mis)uses the tool and the tool, as an inanimate object, is technically blameless, it may nevertheless make perfectly good sense to target the tool as a way to address the problem.

 

[zwick99]

That is just since Sandy Hook. I heard that a few minutes ago on MSNBC. Most commonly they were killed by handguns.
I wonder if any of the strongly pro life Republican candidates will talk about the importance of those children's lives tomorrow during the Republican debate?

Thousands are killed by repeat offenders because Dems support a catch and release prison system.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

Thousands are killed by repeat offenders because Dems support a catch and release prison system.

We catch and release murderers?

I did not know this.

I disapprove.

 

[sijoint]

We gotta reduce the number of guns. You can't have more guns than people and not expect problems.

A better solution would be to amputate the trigger (index) finger of everyone, making it impossible to use the weapon. Of course that would create another problem.......losing
the ability to pick your nose.

 

[Gimmered]

I've only been to 1 gun show (last spring) and I wasn't there intending to buy a gun (although I was tempted a couple of times).

That said, my impression was that if I had wanted a gun I could have bought one. I didn't see any evidence that background checks were being conducted. And I did see several people buy guns, a majority of which were cash transactions. NTTAWWT. Did I just miss the background checks because I didn't know what I was looking for?

I would hope that you could have bought a gun if you wanted one, that is the way it is suppose to work with constitutionally guaranteed rights. If you bought from a dealer by law he would need to do an instant background check. if you were buying from an individual it would depend on your state law. I have no idea what you saw or missed. When I buy from my gun shop locally I pay cash too. If I use my debit card he asks me to split the fees.

Approximately 1% of guns collected from crime scenes come from gun shows. If we could end all of these we probably wouldn't reduce crime at all, but would force these criminals to get their guns where the other 99% of crime scene guns come from.

 

[NoleSoup4U]

You say you aren't religious yet go on to assert the religious premise that I questioned - and do so using exactly the same religious terminology.

Try it without using words and concepts like "created" and "endowed."

Why would we have "rights as humans"? What does that even mean?

Rights as sentient beings if you wish. You don't have to be created by a god. I was created by my mother and father.

 

[Nat Algren]

If you think "libertarian" is synonymous with "anarcho-capitalist" that explains why we sometimes disagree.

I read Rothbard back when I was reading Ayn Rand. MR is certainly not the father of libertarianism.

There are many flavors of libertarianism - even though people here seem only to know of one of them. You should look them up. You might find some things you like. The non-aggression principle is shared across several philosophies and is a perfectly good principle, but it isn't unique to libertarianism. Nor would all libertarians agree that it is the central tenet.

The idea that there are natural rights given to us from our creator would have gotten you laughed out of town by both Rand and Rothbard back in the 60s. I'm sure Rand never changed her mind on that. Did Rothbard get religion at some later time? Religion has NO connection with libertarianism. None. Zilch. Zippo. You can, of course be religious and a libertarian, but most libertarians who are religious turn out to be religious first and pretty lame libertarians who frequently confuse the submission to authority required by religion with a mindless submission to doctrine seen in many American libertarians.

Keynsianism isn't something you "embrace" - any more than you embrace gravity or evolution - it's a description of how certain economic relationships function.

It's true that libertarianism comes in many flavors. But, that's because many accept parts of it, but, only wish to stick their big toe in the water. You can't get a little pregnant. Sorry for the metaphor overload. Example, the Kochs' like to call themselves libertarian along with their think tank, The Cato Institute. However, calling yourself one doesn't necessarily make it true. They are crony capitalists who violate the NAP with voluminous frequency. They push for war incessantly. They also purged Murray Rothbard at Cato. Rothbard even came up with the name Cato. He was the leading light there. I digress.

Rand and Rothbard would agree with natural rights deriving from our creator. Though Rand was born Jewish, she became an atheist. They were versed in Locke and were vehemently opposed to government which achieves its goals through the violation of the NAP. You seemed to have missed the point there and extracted your own version.

Keynesianism directly violates the NAP and is not compatible with libertarianism. Who else espouses the NAP? Ron Paul was the only one that I can think of while in Congress who walked the walk.

 

[zwick99]

We catch and release murderers?

I did not know this.

I disapprove.

Yes. Move to Detroit, Chicago, Philly or NYC. Most violent crimes are committed by repeat offenders.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

Yes. Move to Detroit, Chicago, Philly or NYC. Most violent crimes are committed by repeat offenders.

Thanks for correcting what you originally said. It would have been better form to acknowledge that you had screwed up, but what the heck.

 

[CeMar_Clone]

More guns makes it easier for more criminals to get their hands on them. This isn't rocket science. It's basic supply and demand. If we reduce the number of guns, the price for the remaining ones will increase, even for criminals obtaining them on the black market, and many of these killers will be priced out of the market. Whereas, with your plan, we increase the number of guns, drive down the price, and make it cheaper for criminals to obtain them, which will allow criminals to not just buy more guns, but also allow those few really poor ones to get them too.

So my question is why you want more criminals to get more guns?

How do you stop people from using a 3D printer and printing a gun? It can be done. Then do we require background checks on purchasing a 3D printer?

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

 

[Gimmered]

How do you stop people from using a 3D printer and printing a gun? It can be done. Then do we require background checks on purchasing a 3D printer?

You can build an AR 15 receiver with a milling machine. That is a hell of a lot more common than a a 3D printer.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

It's true that libertarianism comes in many flavors. But, that's because many accept parts of it, but, only wish to stick their big toe in the water. You can't get a little pregnant. Sorry for the metaphor overload. Example, the Kochs' like to call themselves libertarian along with their think tank, The Cato Institute. However, calling yourself one doesn't necessarily make it true. They are crony capitalists who violate the NAP with voluminous frequency. They push for war incessantly. They also purged Murray Rothbard at Cato. Rothbard even came up with the name Cato. He was the leading light there. I digress.

Rand and Rothbard would agree with natural rights deriving from our creator. Though Rand was born Jewish, she became an atheist. They were versed in Locke and were vehemently opposed to government which achieves its goals through the violation of the NAP. You seemed to have missed the point there and extracted your own version.

Keynesianism directly violates the NAP and is not compatible with libertarianism. Who else espouses the NAP? Ron Paul was the only one that I can think of while in Congress who walked the walk.

How could an atheist agree that rights come from a creator?

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

You can build an AR 15 receiver with a milling machine. That is a hell of a lot more common than a a 3D printer.

Yeah, but for how long?

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

Speaking of 3D printing, when will we see Kinkos or some equivalent offering 3D printing services? Has that already happened? If not, which one of you budding entrepreneurs will get in early?

I fully expect 3D printers to be found in most homes in 5-10 years (at the latest) but what about between now and then? And for oversized or specialty designs?

 

[Nat Algren]

How could an atheist agree that rights come from a creator?

I think Nole Soup 4U gave a good answer. The Founders et al knew that human nature as it was/is could never be trusted with such power, as governments compel citizens to do things by force.

 

[Huey Grey]

I think Nole Soup 4U gave a good answer. The Founders et al knew that human nature as it was/is could never be trusted with such power, as governments compel citizens to do things by force.

JFC. The founders never thought the Constitution would last past a generation. Stop pretending like they were some sort of oracles.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

I think Nole Soup 4U gave a good answer. The Founders et al knew that human nature as it was/is could never be trusted with such power, as governments compel citizens to do things by force.

That's no answer at all. Nor were we talking about the Founders. We were talking about Nat and Aynnie.

The question was: How could an atheist agree that rights come from a creator?

It's been a very long time but I'll give good odds that Rand never said anything remotely like that. And at least back then, the 2 of them were in complete lockstep.

 

[Jan Itor]

JFC. The founders never thought the Constitution would last past a generation. Stop pretending like they were some sort of oracles.

HTF do you know what the founders were thinking?

 

[Huey Grey]

HTF do you know what the founders were thinking?

If the founders were clairvoyant enough to know what we would be thinking in 2015, I'm certainly clairvoyant to know what they were thinking in 1787.

 

[Jan Itor]

If the founders were clairvoyant enough to know what we would be thinking in 2015, I'm certainly clairvoyant to know what they were thinking in 1787.

 

[dbq hawk 32]

Is the solution to ban rocks?

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

Is the solution to ban rocks?

Just the bad ones.

 

[Nat Algren]

JFC. The founders never thought the Constitution would last past a generation. Stop pretending like they were some sort of oracles.

As soon as you stop pretending to pass off as fact that they did not believe the Constitution would last a generation.

 

[Nat Algren]

That's no answer at all. Nor were we talking about the Founders. We were talking about Nat and Aynnie.

The question was: How could an atheist agree that rights come from a creator?

It's been a very long time but I'll give good odds that Rand never said anything remotely like that. And at least back then, the 2 of them were in complete lockstep.

Since when is Ayn Rand the standard bearer of libertarianism?

 

[NoleSoup4U]

JFC. The founders never thought the Constitution would last past a generation. Stop pretending like they were some sort of oracles.

That has nothing to do with the argument.

 

[NoleSoup4U]

That's no answer at all. Nor were we talking about the Founders. We were talking about Nat and Aynnie.

The question was: How could an atheist agree that rights come from a creator?

It's been a very long time but I'll give good odds that Rand never said anything remotely like that. And at least back then, the 2 of them were in complete lockstep.

You have a very narrow idea of what a "creator" is.

 

[NoleSoup4U]

Since when is Ayn Rand the standard bearer of libertarianism?

She didn't even consider herself a libertarian. I've told this to WWJD before and even shown him her quote, but he just ignores it and continues to make the same mistake.

 

[NoleSoup4U]

As soon as you stop pretending to pass off as fact that they did not believe the Constitution would last a generation.

If they didn't think it would last past a generation, then they sure went through a lot of trouble making sure that we could amend it if we wanted.

 

[Nat Algren]

She didn't even consider herself a libertarian. I've told this to WWJD before and even shown him her quote, but he just ignores it and continues to make the same mistake.

Giants in the libertarian movement such as Ludwig von Mises, Walter Block, Murray Rothbard, Michael Rozeff and David Gordon are/ were Jewish. They don't even mention rand.

 

[Vroom_C14]

.

 

[fredjr82]

She didn't even consider herself a libertarian. I've told this to WWJD before and even shown him her quote, but he just ignores it and continues to make the same mistake.

Yeah, WWJD. NoleSoup may just be a line cook today, but he's going for his Masters. He's got his eyes on the real prize........

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

Giants in the libertarian movement such as Ludwig von Mises, Walter Block, Murray Rothbard, Michael Rozeff and David Gordon are/ were Jewish. They don't even mention rand.

Rand introduced a whole generation of Americans to that way of thinking. She made it interesting and palatable, and in stories like The Fountainhead (perhaps even more so than Atlas Shrugged), she breathed life into the philosophy.

Since none of them invented libertarianism, I think that effort earns her top honors. It's not the disciples of von Mises, Rothbard or Uncle Miltie in Congress. It's Rand Paul, Paul Ryan and a bunch of Ayn Rand-influenced Tea Partiers.

 

[NoleSoup4U]

Rand introduced a whole generation of Americans to that way of thinking. She made it interesting and palatable, and in stories like The Fountainhead (perhaps even more so than Atlas Shrugged), she breathed life into the philosophy.

Since none of them invented libertarianism, I think that effort earns her top honors. It's not the disciples of von Mises, Rothbard or Uncle Miltie in Congress. It's Rand Paul, Paul Ryan and a bunch of Ayn Rand-influenced Tea Partiers.

How could Rand introduce us to something that many of the founders espoused? Libertarianism isn't really anything more than classic liberalism. You remember the classic liberal, right? It was the real liberal before you guys stole it to try to pass off that you weren't statists conservatives.

 

[Nat Algren]

Rand introduced a whole generation of Americans to that way of thinking. She made it interesting and palatable, and in stories like The Fountainhead (perhaps even more so than Atlas Shrugged), she breathed life into the philosophy.

Since none of them invented libertarianism, I think that effort earns her top honors. It's not the disciples of von Mises, Rothbard or Uncle Miltie in Congress. It's Rand Paul, Paul Ryan and a bunch of Ayn Rand-influenced Tea Partiers.

Wow...........just WOWWWWWW!!!!!!!!!!!

You keep unwittingly making my point. You're like the midget football player who picks up the ball and runs the wrong way scoring for the other team.

Ayn Rand wrote fiction novels. Just because Rand Paul's father was a libertarian doesn't make Rand one as well. Paul Ryan??? Paul friggin Ryan? Are you kidding me? He is despised by libertarians. Just because he mentioned reading her book You claim you're a libertarian and yet, I remember you making derogatory comments re: The Lew Rockwell website. It's the most read libertarian website in the world. All of the leading lights of the movement contribute articles there.

Austrian Economics was around long before Ayn Rand was even born. Mises was at least 25 years before Rand. Carl Menger was before von Mises and probably half a century before Ayn Rand. Try von Bawerk. AR hadn't even had her period yet and these guys had accomplished much more than her.

 

[NavalHawk]

Snopes says: Switzerland issues every adult a gun and trains them how to use it: Switzerland has lowest gun-related crime rate in the civilized world.

list of countries by firearm-related death rate shows Switzerland as having 6.4 firearm deaths per 100,000 population per year, a figure considerably lower than in the United States (10.27) but higher than a number of other countries. As for gun-related crime in general, a 2001 BBC article reported that in Switzerland "the gun crime rate is so low that statistics are not even kept."

My only comment after reading these seven pages is that this factoid from Snopes is interesting. Thanks to all for the entertaining reading this evening. Retired Navy and yes I own guns, knives and baseball bats. Must be a wacko according to some.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

Wow...........just WOWWWWWW!!!!!!!!!!!

You keep unwittingly making my point. You're like the midget football player who picks up the ball and runs the wrong way scoring for the other team.

Ayn Rand wrote fiction novels. Just because Rand Paul's father was a libertarian doesn't make Rand one as well. Paul Ryan??? Paul friggin Ryan? Are you kidding me? He is despised by libertarians. Just because he mentioned reading her book You claim you're a libertarian and yet, I remember you making derogatory comments re: The Lew Rockwell website. It's the most read libertarian website in the world. All of the leading lights of the movement contribute articles there.

Austrian Economics was around long before Ayn Rand was even born. Mises was at least 25 years before Rand. Carl Menger was before von Mises and probably half a century before Ayn Rand. Try von Bawerk. AR hadn't even had her period yet and these guys had accomplished much more than her.

You're all over the place. Please stop with the personal BS. That hasn't been part of our interaction before and there's no reason to start now.

You previously wanted to call Murray Rothbard the father of libertarianism but now you disparage my claim that Ayn Rand was the main popularizer of libertarianism in America because she was preceded by the Austrian school. Which agrees with my position that libertarianism goes back much further than MR. But doesn't affect my claim that she grew libertarianism in America.

Ayn Rand also wrote non-fiction. I'm not sure why that matters, but you seem to think it does. My point, however, was that AR hugely multiplied interest in libertarianism through her novels.

Your problem with Rand Paul and Paul Ryan being considered libertarians is similar to my problem with most people here who consider themselves libertarian. You are at least fairly consistent in reflecting the right wing version of libertarianism that dominates in the US, but you seem willfully clueless about other flavors of libertarianism found around the world and through history. The 2 Pauls certainly portray themselves as libertarians, although they deviate from the canon frequently enough.

 

[Huey Grey]

Is the solution to ban rocks?

The solution is to not let kids you know are nuts to have rocks. This isn't that difficult.

 

[Vroom_C14]

Yes, yes, we all get that these are the tools and the person wields the tools. But the fact is that sometimes the tools are inappropriate or misused.

If I give my china shop workers a tool box with a hammer in it and I end up with a lot of broken china, and hammers are implicated a high percentage of the time, the hammer is definitely going to get my attention as a problem.

If I think my workers need hammers for some worthwhile functions, maybe I try to substitute better/safer hammers for the ones that seem to be problematic.

No point in beating this metaphor to death, I'm sure you get the drift.

The point is that even if it's a human that (mis)uses the tool and the tool, as an inanimate object, is technically blameless, it may nevertheless make perfectly good sense to target the tool as a way to address the problem.

Surprised you weren't caught in some sort of mass shooting at said gun show...