A far-right politician is poised to become Italy’s first female leader

Big Hawk D-Port

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So you are cool with her and other members of her party being admirers of Mussolini?
With all due respect, these kind of attacks comparing people to WW2 villains is tired. The idea that people in Italy of all places would want to preserve some kind of national culture and identity instead of being overrun by immigrants is not evil.
 
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Hoosierhawkeye

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With all due respect, these kind of attacks comparing people to WW2 villains is tired. The idea that people in Italy of all places would want to preserve some kind of national culture and identity instead of being overrun by immigrants is not evil.

I'm not comparing her to Mussolini. . . She said herself that he did good for the Italian people!!!


I'm not actually all that bothered by her political positions, it seems like standard right wing faire. What does bother me is rhetoric where she seems to like Mussolini and approve of his rule.
 
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Has Italy had anything resembling effective governance since Mussolini?

Scary as it sounds to us - well to some of us at least - maybe fascism looks attractive to Italians in these perilous times.

Fascism is rising in popularity in several European nations. Arguably the US, too.

Why?

It would be interesting to have a serious (not food fight) conversation about fascism. Why is it popular? Does it have some redeeming qualities?
 

FAUlty Gator

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What??

You seem to equate ordinary citizens to the head of government.

No. I'm equating members of American Government to members of a foreign government that has nothing to do with us. You think I'm talking about ordinary citizens when I'm bring up the dumb policies of Dem congress people and the commie dictators they love?
 

Hoosierhawkeye

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No. I'm equating members of American Government to members of a foreign government that has nothing to do with us. You think I'm talking about ordinary citizens when I'm bring up the dumb policies of Dem congress people and the commie dictators they love?

But are those people running for the head of government position?
 

Colonoscopy

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We really need to have a come to jesus moment around here where the word fascist is concerned...
 
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Has Italy had anything resembling effective governance since Mussolini?

Scary as it sounds to us - well to some of us at least - maybe fascism looks attractive to Italians in these perilous times.

Fascism is rising in popularity in several European nations. Arguably the US, too.

Why?

It would be interesting to have a serious (not food fight) conversation about fascism. Why is it popular? Does it have some redeeming qualities?
I think the first thing people need to learn is how fascism is really defined. The whole term has been bastardized by the left and Trump haters but when you actually look at the traditional meaning of fascism you could make the case that several liberal Governors (Newsome, Whitmer, etc.) were more fascist during the COVID lockdowns than any politicians in American history. I tend to go with the Merriam-Webster definition which is much more accurate than the Wikipedia definition that those on the left like to use. A fascist can be on the left or the right. I'm a Libertarian so might see it differently but an autocrat is an autocrat.

 

Rifler

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So what norms do you think society fears it is losing control of?

Well, for the topic at hand, Italy,.. I think many Italians are concerned with the impact that significant immigration is having on their society.
 

Hoosierhawkeye

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Well, for the topic at hand, Italy,.. I think many Italians are concerned with the impact that significant immigration is having on their society.

See I think that's a stupid excuse. Pretty much since ancient times you have people worry about people who don't look like them living in their country and it has never once caused any country to lose it's identity. The people who caused countries to lose their identity is the fear mongering politicians who push people to be afraid of others.

People like Hilter, like Franco. They have taken democratic governments of free nations and turned them into despotic dictatorial regimes. All on the basis of some outside group that you are supposed to be afraid of.
 
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Finance85

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We really need to have a come to jesus moment around here where the word fascist is concerned...
For reals. Ever since Biden threw that word out, his minions have been busy using and abusing it.

fascism

făsh′ĭz″əm

noun​

  1. A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, a capitalist economy subject to stringent governmental controls, violent suppression of the opposition, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.
  2. A political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system of government.
  3. Oppressive, dictatorial control.
 
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Rifler

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See I think that's a stupid excuse. Pretty much since ancient times you have people worry about people who don't look like them living in their country and it has never once caused any country to lose it's identity. The people who caused countries to lose their identity is the fear mongering politicians who push people to be afraid of others.

And thinking it's stupid would be your perogative,.. however, that doesn't make it any less real to those affected.
 

seminole97

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See I think that's a stupid excuse. Pretty much since ancient times you have people worry about people who don't look like them living in their country and it has never once caused any country to lose it's identity.
cryingindian-simpsons-carousel.jpg
 

Hoosierhawkeye

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They where not really a country so to speak, just a collection of tribes sometimes loosely joined together in a confederacy.

Secondly and more importantly they didn't lose their culture because they invited some immigrants in but instead because a bunch of people from outside sent soldiers and disease and conquered them.

Plenty of countries have been openly conquered by outside forces. The Native Americans where conquered from the outside.
 

gohawks50

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I noticed that,.. Those things also seem to echo in the US...
True, but nobody is losing their ability to identify as their birth gender, specific religion, or pronouns. What really seems to upset people is that others dare to identify themselves by different norms. The truth is this movement is about defining how others should identify themselves.
 
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I'm a Libertarian so might see it differently but an autocrat is an autocrat.
I agree. We libertarians - left, right or otherwise - should agree on this. Concentrations of power are the danger.

Unfortunately, many (most) who call themselves "libertarian" in the US these days are only concerned about governmental concentrations of power - and sometimes only federal-level governmental concentrations of power.

It's hard to take libertarians seriously as libertarians, if they ignore concentrations and abuses of power at local, state, church or corporate levels and only bitch about the federal government.
 

Hoosierhawkeye

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And thinking it's stupid would be your perogative,.. however, that doesn't make it any less real to those affected.

It's a fear in their heads just like it was in the heads of German Nazi's and in the heads of Spanish Francoists.

And instead what we got is democratic backsliding into tyrannical dictatorships, a World War, genocide, and a myriad of other human rights violations.
 

seminole97

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They where not really a country so to speak, just a collection of tribes sometimes loosely joined together in a confederacy.

Secondly and more importantly they didn't lose their culture because they invited some immigrants in but instead because a bunch of people from outside sent soldiers and disease and conquered them.

Plenty of countries have been openly conquered by outside forces. The Native Americans where conquered from the outside.
I reckon the nativists look upon uninvited immigrants as 'outside forces'.

Should everyone on the planet live in Western Europe and the U.S.?

Does a nation have a right to determine who it admits?

Much of the opprobrium aimed at Hungary is because they elect a leadership more interested in keeping the country Hungarian than opening the borders to foreigners.
Now Italy, another of the EU's 'border states' is doing the same.
Denmark is signing an agreement with Rwanda to return refugee seekers akin to Trump's 'remain in Mexico' agreement.
 

Rifler

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It's a fear in their heads just like it was in the heads of German Nazi's and in the heads of Spanish Francoists. And instead what we got is democratic backsliding into tyrannical dictatorships, a World War, genocide, and a myriad of other human rights violations.

Fear in a persons' head is still fear....
 

Big Hawk D-Port

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I reckon the nativists look upon uninvited immigrants as 'outside forces'.

Should everyone on the planet live in Western Europe and the U.S.?

Does a nation have a right to determine who it admits?

Much of the opprobrium aimed at Hungary is because they elect a leadership more interested in keeping the country Hungarian than opening the borders to foreigners.
Now Italy, another of the EU's 'border states' is doing the same.
Denmark is signing an agreement with Rwanda to return refugee seekers akin to Trump's 'remain in Mexico' agreement.
It’s hard for Americans to understand because our national culture is a melting pot. Italians and most of Europe have a much different history and perspective.

The fact that many of these immigrants are Muslims is not insignificant either.
 

Hoosierhawkeye

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I reckon the nativists look upon uninvited immigrants as 'outside forces'.

Should everyone on the planet live in Western Europe and the U.S.?

Does a nation have a right to determine who it admits?

Much of the opprobrium aimed at Hungary is because they elect a leadership more interested in keeping the country Hungarian than opening the borders to foreigners.
Now Italy, another of the EU's 'border states' is doing the same.
Denmark is signing an agreement with Rwanda to return refugee seekers akin to Trump's 'remain in Mexico' agreement.

I don't have a problem with sending them back. But the fear mongering and the hateful rhetoric. . . this is going to a very bad place.

And what is worse than all of that is the refusal of these leaders to accept the results of elections that they don't win. To be fair as far as I know this woman has not done that yet. But it has happened with Trump, it's happening right now with Jair Bolsonario.
 

Hoosierhawkeye

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It’s hard for Americans to understand because our national culture is a melting pot. Italians and most of Europe have a much different history and perspective.

The fact that many of these immigrants are Muslims is not insignificant either.

Oh please

Islam is the religion of like 4% of the Italian population.
 

seminole97

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I don't have a problem with sending them back. But the fear mongering and the hateful rhetoric. . . this is going to a very bad place.

And what is worse than all of that is the refusal of these leaders to accept the results of elections that they don't win. To be fair as far as I know this woman has not done that yet. But it has happened with Trump, it's happening right now with Jair Bolsonario.
What did you think of the EU Commission’s president before the election, basically threatening to withhold funds if Italians didn’t vote ‘correctly’.

Von der Leyen also came under criticism from the Polish government, with the deputy justice minister accusing Germany of running the EU.

"The President of the European Commission suggests that if the Italians elect a government that Brussels does not like, they may have funds blocked," Polish Deputy Justice Minister Sebastian Kaleta said on Twitter.

"Further proof that the "rule of law" is pure blackmail to impose EU, or rather German, dictates. Such is "democracy"," he added.
 

ft254

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For reals. Ever since Biden threw that word out, his minions have been busy using and abusing it.

fascism

făsh′ĭz″əm

noun​

  1. A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, a capitalist economy subject to stringent governmental controls, violent suppression of the opposition, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.
  2. A political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system of government.
  3. Oppressive, dictatorial control.re

Mussolini invented and designed it and history attributes him historically as such. It's not unreasonable to associate authoritarian rule as fascistic. Perhaps non-minions can find more appropriate descriptors.
 
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Jul 16, 2022
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I agree. We libertarians - left, right or otherwise - should agree on this. Concentrations of power are the danger.

Unfortunately, many (most) who call themselves "libertarian" in the US these days are only concerned about governmental concentrations of power - and sometimes only federal-level governmental concentrations of power.

It's hard to take libertarians seriously as libertarians, if they ignore concentrations and abuses of power at local, state, church or corporate levels and only bitch about the federal government.
Could not agree more. The old saying "power corrupts" applies to most institutions especially if they lack transparency. I'd add the press and big tech to your list as well.
 

globalhawk

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What did you think of the EU Commission’s president before the election, basically threatening to withhold funds if Italians didn’t vote ‘correctly’.

Von der Leyen also came under criticism from the Polish government, with the deputy justice minister accusing Germany of running the EU.

"The President of the European Commission suggests that if the Italians elect a government that Brussels does not like, they may have funds blocked," Polish Deputy Justice Minister Sebastian Kaleta said on Twitter.

"Further proof that the "rule of law" is pure blackmail to impose EU, or rather German, dictates. Such is "democracy"," he added.
What a shock coming from Poland.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europ...e-authoritarian-rights-group-says-2022-02-15/

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-52489336
 

joelbc1

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you can’t always get what you want!
They're American. Living here in this country. You know...like the ones you, Chis and @cigaretteman want us to be so fearful of when it comes to "the end of democracy". Why am I supposed to be afraid of Boebert and MTG again? Also, weren't Castro and Chavez heads of country?

Lots of inconsistency here.

Be afraid of fascist heads of countries. But not Commie heads of countries. American politicians supporting commie heads of countries are just "rando nameless people". Nameless rando people who like fascist heads of countries far away from us are a huge threat that we all need to be worried about.

Tight ship there.
Other than MAGAts, who trusts Commie leaders? Trump loves him some Putin and Kim Jong-un....Can't say the same about Biden, though.
 

joelbc1

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you can’t always get what you want!
Not that you’ll read it.

For US citizens not being able to visit and conduct business in Cuba is absolute insanity. No phuquin' reason for it except for the politics of Florida. We do business with China, with Russia and damn near everyone else.....but not Cuba? Insanity.
 

Hoosierhawkeye

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What did you think of the EU Commission’s president before the election, basically threatening to withhold funds if Italians didn’t vote ‘correctly’.

Von der Leyen also came under criticism from the Polish government, with the deputy justice minister accusing Germany of running the EU.

"The President of the European Commission suggests that if the Italians elect a government that Brussels does not like, they may have funds blocked," Polish Deputy Justice Minister Sebastian Kaleta said on Twitter.

"Further proof that the "rule of law" is pure blackmail to impose EU, or rather German, dictates. Such is "democracy"," he added.

Italy's relationship with the EU isn't a concern of mine. The rise of possible dictatorships in formerly democratic nations is.