About that Game of Thrones ending

[noleclone2]

Looks like for the first time ever, George R R Martin is publicly distancing himself from stuff after season 5 and saying they went off the plot lines he gave them. Also he reportedly had flown to New York to meet with HBO to push for 10 seasons / 100 episodes which is quite the contrast to the final 7 and 8 year, both shortened.

And probably the biggest thing, he never told the writer who wins the iron throne.

To me, this I think confirms what many of the fans, myself included, felt about the last season or two: the entire group, writers, production and cast were tired of it and wanted to be done which led to a rushed ending and thin plot lines that contrasted with the prior 6 seasons.

I really hope he can find away to finish the series in his vision, but I doubt he will.

George RR Martin was worried about Game of Thrones after season five aired

Season five of hit HBO drama aired in 2015

www.independent.co.uk

Haas also insisted that Martin has “not told anybody” who wins the Iron Throne, despite previous claims from Benioff and Weiss that the HBO show’s ending – in which Bran Stark becomes Ruler of the Six Kingdoms – came from Martin himself.

George R.R. Martin flew to New York to 'beg' an HBO executive to make 'Game of Thrones' 10 seasons long, according to his agent

In a new book about HBO titled "Tinderbox," the journalist James Andrew Miller uncovered details about how the "Game of Thrones" finale came to be.

sports.yahoo.com

In 2018, Martin told Variety he didn't know why the show was ending with season eight because there was enough material to go up to 13 seasons. But Haas' quotes in "Tinderbox" marks the first time any specifics have been revealed about how Martin made requests to HBO for more seasons.


"Dan and Dave were tired, rightfully so," Haas said in Miller's book. "They were done, and wanted to move on, so they cut it short and then negotiations became, how many seasons can we stretch this out? Because of course HBO wanted more

All of it also matches the infamous horse painting MEME of GOT!!!!

 

[TennNole17]

Last season was just awful.

 

[BioHawk]

Well, Martin is right, it's clear the series needed at least two more seasons just based on the screwed up storylines they did film. However, if he is unhappy with the way things turned out then maybe he could have finished the books and given the producers a better template to follow.

If Benioff and Weis were tired of the show, and there's nothing wrong with that, then HBO should have looked into letting them move on and finding someone else. There are plenty of people out there that could have continued the vision at a high level.

There's a lot of things that could have happened to make the show better, but they didn't. On the other hand, the show did show that long form, epic fantasy is viable if it is done properly so I think we have all benefited from that. You could make an argument that all the good streaming series out right now don't happen without the success of Game of Thrones.

 

[sober_teacher]

I have little sympathy for Martin here. He left the show runners hanging by not working harder on the books, and I don’t believe him that the show runners just disregarded the notes he left them completely.

I fall in the camp of hating how they got to the ending, but thinking the ending itself was fine. It’s REALLY difficult for any show that had such high quality for so much of its run, develop such a devoted fan base, and stick the landing in such a way as to make all of them happy.

 

[noleclone2]

I have little sympathy for Martin here. He left the show runners hanging by not working harder on the books, and I don’t believe him that the show runners just disregarded the notes he left them completely.

I fall in the camp of hating how they got to the ending, but thinking the ending itself was fine. It’s REALLY difficult for any show that had such high quality for so much of its run, develop such a devoted fan base, and stick the landing in such a way as to make all of them happy.

I see some of this, for sure with Martin being partially to blame, but they could have stuck the landing way better. The last season was just so different and so poorly done and a lot of that could have been averted had they worked in another 4 episodes to close the story properly. With 6 episodes and the first 2 episodes doing hardly any advancement, the entire build up of 69 episodes over 8 years was compressed in basically 4 episodes. None of it worked or flowed well due to this and most fans hated or did not understand the ending because of lack of typical GOT character and plot intertwining.

 

[sober_teacher]

I see some of this, for sure with Martin being partially to blame, but they could have stuck the landing way better. The last season was just so different and so poorly done and a lot of that could have been averted had they worked in another 4 episodes to close the story properly. With 6 episodes and the first 2 episodes doing hardly any advancement, the entire build up of 69 episodes over 8 years was compressed in basically 4 episodes. None of it worked or flowed well due to this and most fans hated or did not understand the ending because of lack of typical GOT character and plot intertwining.

Agreed, which is why I say I don’t hate where the ended, it just doesn’t work all that great because of how they got there. Compressing the last two seasons meant all sense of pace that had been perfectly developed the previous six seasons was lost. Storylines that took the bulk of seasons to occur because of characters traveling from point A to B, got condensed into one or two episodes instead, and felt rushed as a result.

 

[Bonerfarts]

The ending will be the same plot points as the books, but the books will get there in a much different fashion.

 

[LesClaypool]

The first three episodes of the final season were good. The night spent drinking and storytelling at Winterfell, prior to the battle, was a Top 5-10 of all time episode in the series.

 

[Tom Paris]

What's it been now, 4 years since we first were hearing Book 6 was going to be finished? I haven't heard one word about that book being done in over a year.

 

[sober_teacher]

The first three episodes of the final season were good. The night spent drinking and storytelling at Winterfell, prior to the battle, was a Top 5-10 of all time episode in the series.

I actually like the penultimate episode as well. It just felt rushed for how quickly Danaerys went mad.

 

[ping72]

I have no doubt that Martin could extend this many many seasons. That’s why he has not finished the books… He’s created something so large and unwieldy that there’s no way he can wrap it up.

I enjoyed the first few books… but I’ll be honest, I never finished the last one. It became way too much of a slog. I have to imagine any future books will be extremely difficult reads.

 

[h-hawk]

Was hoping the dragon could bring back Danaerys as sane again. Thought they could have ended the show with the kingdom split between her and Snow as they had come to trust each other. Could see one always coming to the defense of the other. (But maybe I am forgetting other plot points.)

 

[Bonerfarts]

I have no doubt that Martin could extend this many many seasons. That’s why he has not finished the books… He’s created something so large and unwieldy that there’s no way he can wrap it up.

I enjoyed the first few books… but I’ll be honest, I never finished the last one. It became way too much of a slog. I have to imagine any future books will be extremely difficult reads.

I loved the last book "A Dance with Dragons". I've read all the released Winds of Winter chapters as well and feel they are on par if not better than everything he has written.

 

[SoDakHawk]

I fall in the camp of hating how they got to the ending, but thinking the ending itself was fine. It’s REALLY difficult for any show that had such high quality for so much of its run, develop such a devoted fan base, and stick the landing in such a way as to make all of them happy.

Who has a better story than Bran?

Send Jon Snow to the Wall as punishment for killing Dany. You know, that wall that has crumbled and is no longer needed. Yeah, I know he's just going to live out his days north of the (former) wall. But what a stupid excuse to send him there to begin with. Exiled, basically.

My God, what a crap ending.

You know what would have been good? If they fleshed all of this out and if things happened the same way with Dany turning, Jon killing her, etc. but the character evolution was there to make it more believable. Also, it turns out that Bran has been manipulating everything and is actually a pretty evil character. That would have been better than "Who has a better story than Bran? Let's make him King."

 

[tarheelbybirth]

The ending will be the same plot points as the books, but the books will get there in a much different fashion.

Hell, Martin is likely going to change the end game...assuming he ever writes it...just to "show them".

 

[FAUlty Gator]

 

[WhiteSoxClone]

The writing obviously dropped off significantly after they exhausted all of the source material. The dialogue was noticeably bad. And yes, the story was rushed, which sucked. But the worst of it for me was the way that complex characters, developed over 5 seasons, suddenly started acting completely out of character. Tyrion was witty and brilliant and always thinking two steps ahead of everyone else, and suddenly he becomes a bumbling fool unable to even understand things as they unfold in front of him. Varys becomes worthless essentially after five seasons of as a major player who always knew things before anyone else did thanks to his spies. Let's not even talk about Jaime Lannister. About the only character in Season 8 that was recognizable to the character in Seasons 1-5 is Cersei, and that's because as a psychopath she is probably the least complex.

I can forgive the rushing of the story, I can even forgive the poor dialogue. But this show was about the characters much more than the story, and its hard to forgive the way that they were treated in service of wrapping it all up quickly.

 

[coloradonoles]

This dude spent a LOT of time with this and has actually started writing a Season 9.

It's 2 hours long... way TL;DR for most but give it a try.

 

[sober_teacher]

Who has a better story than Bran?

Send Jon Snow to the Wall as punishment for killing Dany. You know, that wall that has crumbled and is no longer needed. Yeah, I know he's just going to live out his days north of the (former) wall. But what a stupid excuse to send him there to begin with. Exiled, basically.

My God, what a crap ending.

You know what would have been good? If they fleshed all of this out and if things happened the same way with Dany turning, Jon killing her, etc. but the character evolution was there to make it more believable. Also, it turns out that Bran has been manipulating everything and is actually a pretty evil character. That would have been better than "Who has a better story than Bran? Let's make him King."

Jon returning to north of the Wall made sense to me, based on how he had related to the wildlings early on, so again, it’s the reason he returned that bugged me. Bran to me they could have sold better as a candidate as a compromise to let everyone take a deep breath so to speak. After all, half the major house had been decimated, if not outright wiped out; arguably only House Stark truly survived, with Sansa and Bran, as well as Jon still around. here again is something that made some sense to me, it’s just how they got there that irked me.

 

[NoleATL]

maybe he could have finished the books and given the producers a better template to follow

Maybe he tired of it as well. I can see how it was very consuming... each episode was probably more involved than most full movies.

 

[LesClaypool]

Jon returning to north of the Wall made sense to me, based on how he had related to the wildlings early on, so again, it’s the reason he returned that bugged me. Bran to me they could have sold better as a candidate as a compromise to let everyone take a deep breath so to speak. After all, half the major house had been decimated, if not outright wiped out; arguably only House Stark truly survived, with Sansa and Bran, as well as Jon still around. here again is something that made some sense to me, it’s just how they got there that irked me.

Jon belonged north of the Wall for Egret.

 

[TennNole17]

I recall the books basically ending with Daenarys sailing to Westeros, but its been a long time since I read them.

Assuming my memory is correct, not all of the timeline past that is bad. It was really just the last few episodes. I liked the Night King battle, and loved the dragons introduction into the battle attacking the Lannister army.

Pretty much the battle of Kings landing forward I didn't like.

 

[NoleATL]

P.S. A quick look at my profile picture will tell you who won the Iron Throne.

 

[SoDakHawk]

Jon returning to north of the Wall made sense to me, based on how he had related to the wildlings early on, so again, it’s the reason he returned that bugged me. Bran to me they could have sold better as a candidate as a compromise to let everyone take a deep breath so to speak. After all, half the major house had been decimated, if not outright wiped out; arguably only House Stark truly survived, with Sansa and Bran, as well as Jon still around. here again is something that made some sense to me, it’s just how they got there that irked me.

Well yeah, I pretty much said the way he ended up getting sent to the Wall was BS. Totally agree that is where Jon wanted to be as he wanted nothing to do with the throne or power. Just that the way they got there was stupid. Pretty much everything that happened in the end, at least how the characters got to their final points, was stupid.

 

[BioHawk]

Maybe he tired of it as well. I can see how it was very consuming... each episode was probably more involved than most full movies.

Well, I don't know how much work Martin actually put into the shows, but pretty much any author not named Stephen King that I have heard of is not a fan of the "writing the book" part. Everyone wants to have written a book, very few people like writing a book.

 

[BioHawk]

I recall the books basically ending with Daenarys sailing to Westeros, but its been a long time since I read them.

Assuming my memory is correct, not all of the timeline past that is bad. It was really just the last few episodes. I liked the Night King battle, and loved the dragons introduction into the battle attacking the Lannister army.

Pretty much the battle of Kings landing forward I didn't like.

I think the Night King battle was the biggest problem to season 7. The whole Night King storyline was being developed from episode 1 of the series and then you just end it in one episode? The battle with the Night King should have consumed the entire season with a series of battles as the humans keep getting pushed back and have a last stand at King's Landing. Bring in a retreat to the islands. The battle of Winterfell should have just been a delaying action to allow more people and forces to escape south. Not to mention, actually use some strategy and not run something that looks like it was developed by a 5th grader.

The last episode of the series, or maybe the second to last episode so the last one could be an epilogue of sorts, should have concluded most of the storylines. The Night King war as well as Cersei's and the Lannister's storyline. But to do all this properly would have required at least two more seasons of the show. Something the producers wanted no part of.

 

[LesClaypool]

I think the Night King battle was the biggest problem to season 7. The whole Night King storyline was being developed from episode 1 of the series and then you just end it in one episode? The battle with the Night King should have consumed the entire season with a series of battles as the humans keep getting pushed back and have a last stand at King's Landing. Bring in a retreat to the islands. The battle of Winterfell should have just been a delaying action to allow more people and forces to escape south. Not to mention, actually use some strategy and not run something that looks like it was developed by a 5th grader.

The last episode of the series, or maybe the second to last episode so the last one could be an epilogue of sorts, should have concluded most of the storylines. The Night King war as well as Cersei's and the Lannister's storyline. But to do all this properly would have required at least two more seasons of the show. Something the producers wanted no part of.

The battle w/the Night King went all the way back to Hardhome…Season 5.

 

[BioHawk]

The battle w/the Night King went all the way back to Hardhome…Season 5.

I guess that's true. Still, it shouldn't have ended where it did especially since the human force's strategy was so stupid. "Hey, let's send the dothraki on a charge to get them all slaughtered!".

*Then again, maybe that was the point...

 

[tarheelbybirth]

The last episode of the series, or maybe the second to last episode so the last one could be an epilogue of sorts, should have concluded most of the storylines. The Night King war as well as Cersei's and the Lannister's storyline. But to do all this properly would have required at least two more seasons of the show. Something the producers wanted no part of.

Still haven't watched it past season one...on my to-do list...but I'm curious why everyone in charge seemed to want to end it. Did the numbers drop off? Was the cost just not worth it anymore? It had to be expensive as hell to make but it also produced huge returns, I would imagine. It just seems like they all threw up their hands and said, "Let's tie this off as quickly as possible".

 

[BioHawk]

Still haven't watched it past season one...on my to-do list...but I'm curious why everyone in charge seemed to want to end it. Did the numbers drop off? Was the cost just not worth it anymore? It had to be expensive as hell to make but it also produced huge returns, I would imagine. It just seems like they all threw up their hands and said, "Let's tie this off as quickly as possible".

I think it was an exhausting production with shooting taking place in multiple locations around the world and after the books ended it also added a lot of creative development on top of the top notch production they were already doing. Also, they didn't want to be tied down on one project that essentially took up all their time and didn't allow for them to do anything else. I get that part, I just don't know why HBO didn't just find someone else and let those guys walk. Maybe they would have if the books were finished.

 

[SoDakHawk]

Still haven't watched it past season one...on my to-do list...but I'm curious why everyone in charge seemed to want to end it. Did the numbers drop off? Was the cost just not worth it anymore? It had to be expensive as hell to make but it also produced huge returns, I would imagine. It just seems like they all threw up their hands and said, "Let's tie this off as quickly as possible".

HBO was willing to throw the money at it, so money wasn't the issue. It was everyone's desire to do other projects and move on to other things and enhance their careers. I believe the producers had just been handed the keys to the Star Wars franchise so they wanted to be done with GoT and move on to that. Ironically, after they tanked the GoT ending they got Star Wars yanked from them. As for the actors, the only one I can think of that has done anything is Sansa as she is also in the X-Men franchise.

ETA: Just read where the producers had the Star Wars deal but also a huge deal with Netflix. They got dropped from Star Wars because they couldn't focus all their attention on it. Only so much time in a day.

 

[TylerJ76]

HBO was willing to throw the money at it, so money wasn't the issue. It was everyone's desire to do other projects and move on to other things and enhance their careers. I believe the producers had just been handed the keys to the Star Wars franchise so they wanted to be done with GoT and move on to that. Ironically, after they tanked the GoT ending they got Star Wars yanked from them. As for the actors, the only one I can think of that has done anything is Sansa as she is also in the X-Men franchise.

I would imagine it's just an exhausting show to write/film/edit/produce.

I don't blame anyone for "wanting to be done"

 

[noleclone2]

I loved the last book "A Dance with Dragons". I've read all the released Winds of Winter chapters as well and feel they are on par if not better than everything he has written.

Agreed. I actually think we will get the next one in 22.

 

[sober_teacher]

Still haven't watched it past season one...on my to-do list...but I'm curious why everyone in charge seemed to want to end it. Did the numbers drop off? Was the cost just not worth it anymore? It had to be expensive as hell to make but it also produced huge returns, I would imagine. It just seems like they all threw up their hands and said, "Let's tie this off as quickly as possible".

HBO was willing to throw the money at it, so money wasn't the issue. It was everyone's desire to do other projects and move on to other things and enhance their careers. I believe the producers had just been handed the keys to the Star Wars franchise so they wanted to be done with GoT and move on to that. Ironically, after they tanked the GoT ending they got Star Wars yanked from them. As for the actors, the only one I can think of that has done anything is Sansa as she is also in the X-Men franchise.

ETA: Just read where the producers had the Star Wars deal but also a huge deal with Netflix. They got dropped from Star Wars because they couldn't focus all their attention on it. Only so much time in a day.

Yeah, if nothing else, they could have easily had ten episodes for each of the last two seasons.

idk if we’ll ever truly get a straight answer from them but I’m sure show fatigue played a role.

 

[Bonerfarts]

Agreed. I actually think we will get the next one in 22.

Martin has said that the pandemic quarantine was good for his writing since it forced him to stay home. He couldn't do anything but write. I have hope for Winds of Winter but I don't think we will ever see a George RR Martin written Dream of Spring, especially with new HBO series coming in 2022.

 

[Tenacious E]

I have little sympathy for Martin here. He left the show runners hanging by not working harder on the books, and I don’t believe him that the show runners just disregarded the notes he left them completely.

I fall in the camp of hating how they got to the ending, but thinking the ending itself was fine. It’s REALLY difficult for any show that had such high quality for so much of its run, develop such a devoted fan base, and stick the landing in such a way as to make all of them happy.

disagree with your 2nd paragraph. Dany the savior and her savior army turned into hitler backed by ISIS because Jon spurned her. Pure crap.

 

[Tenacious E]

I guess that's true. Still, it shouldn't have ended where it did especially since the human force's strategy was so stupid. "Hey, let's send the dothraki on a charge to get them all slaughtered!".

*Then again, maybe that was the point...

They did have fire swords. What else should they have done?

 

[LesClaypool]

They did have fire swords. What else should they have done?

The Dothraki knew better than to cross the Narrow Sea. It's really on them what happened afterwards.

 

[Tenacious E]

The Dothraki knew better than to cross the Narrow Sea. It's really on them what happened afterwards.

Yes and no. They should have expected the westerosi would fight back. However, I think it reasonable for them to expect the people and giants they would be fighting wouldn’t already be dead.

 

[LesClaypool]

Yes and no. They should have expected the westerosi would fight back. However, I think it reasonable for them to expect the people and giants they would be fighting wouldn’t already be dead.

The Dothraki banged their horses. I think you give them too much credit in the logic/strategy department. 😃