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Anyone else find it odd that

What was especially fun was when Christie sighted the government program in New Jersey to boot solar production and the government programs in Iowa to boost wind production and then said these examples worked and proved the government should get out of the way. That's moronic.
 
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So you would like government to come in and take wealth away from the more fortunate? In a forceful manner of course.
It seems as if every time that government has come in and attempted to change things they have had their actions backfire on them. If in fact you believe they were giving an honest effort.
What makes you think that government actually cares to do this at all?
You sure don't history if you think this "taxes are stealing" argument holds much water. Fact is that throughout most of the 20th Century we taxed the rich at high rates. And you know what, we enjoyed some of most prosperous times then. How exactly are strong economies "backfiring?"
 
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I am an accountant. I have actually run the numbers for almost 40 years of work. It is not even close. My monthly benefit would be almost 4 times higher than what social security tells me they will give me.
That's great for you, but SS was never designed to out perform individual investments by knowledgeable people such as yourself. What it is designed for is to act as a safety net for the masses who have no idea how to invest, or even the ability to do so. You take away SS a millions of seniors will live out their twilight years in poverty.
 
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You sure don't history if you think this "taxes are stealing" argument holds much water. Fact is that throughout most of the 20th Century we taxed the rich at high rates. And you know what, we enjoyed some of most prosperous times then. How exactly are strong economies "backfiring?"
I did not necessarily say taxes are stealing. I said that governments history of coming in to help the poor gain ground on the rich is not usually what happens.
 
I did not necessarily say taxes are stealing. I said that governments history of coming in to help the poor gain ground on the rich is not usually what happens.
Except that it does. The minimum wage helped millions. Same with Workers Comp and public education. And of course we can't forget Medicare or Social Security. Many of our country's most valued and longest lived programs arose to help the poor. The Republican party used to understand this.
 
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And I really take offense at the Republican candidates calling taxes "stealing." Few like paying taxes, but it's the price we pay to live in a civilized society. It's beyond dumb to act like taxes are stealing or that we could survive as a nation without them.
 
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Except that it does. The minimum wage helped millions. Same with Workers Comp and public education. And of course we can't forget Medicare or Social Security. Many of our country's most valued and longest lived programs arose to help the poor. The Republican party used to understand this.
Those measures helped of course, but do you disagree that they also hurt at times? When do we get to a point to where we program ourselves out of progress? I believe we have been at that point for some time.
Look at Obamacare for instance. It has done nothing but hurt the economy and tear through the earnings of Americans everywhere. My premiums alone raised $300 in the past 2 years. That is $300 that I had taken directly away from me. A program designed to do the very opposite has failed me. I luckily can take that sort of deduction, despite not being pleased with it.
Not every American can say the same. There are many other examples of this.
 
Except that it does. The minimum wage helped millions. Same with Workers Comp and public education. And of course we can't forget Medicare or Social Security. Many of our country's most valued and longest lived programs arose to help the poor. The Republican party used to understand this.

LOL, minimum wage HURTS millions. Here's what your great programs do for people who are truly in need:


You're a store owner and a homeless guy comes in and says he's really hungry, doesn't want to beg, and asks if there's any work he can do for you... sweeping, painting, cleaning... anything for a enough money to get a meal. Legally, you'd have to pay the minimum wage, provide workers comp, pay payroll taxes, pay unemployment insurance taxes, run him through I-9 and E-Verify to make sure he's not an illegal alien, and all the other crap our benevolent government has imposed on employers.

"No," you tell the poor homeless guy, "there's nothing I can do for you."

Here's a guy who wants to work, but the government makes it so damn hard to hire anyone, that you sweep your own floor and he has to resort to begging or going hungry.

Ah, what a country!

Oh, and workers comp benefits employers, not the other way around. It provides a framework for claims to minimize the ability of lawyers to make mountains out of mole hills and get outrageous damages.
 
Those measures helped of course, but do you disagree that they also hurt at times? When do we get to a point to where we program ourselves out of progress? I believe we have been at that point for some time.
Look at Obamacare for instance. It has done nothing but hurt the economy and tear through the earnings of Americans everywhere. My premiums alone raised $300 in the past 2 years. That is $300 that I had taken directly away from me. A program designed to do the very opposite has failed me. I luckily can take that sort of deduction, despite not being pleased with it.
Not every American can say the same. There are many other examples of this.
Everything I've read says that Obamacare has helped the economy. Not only has it gotten tens of millions coverage, it has done so while costs slowed. Additionally, it has been well cited that Obamacare was the program that kept our GDP growth out of the negative when we go excruciatingly close a few years ago.
 
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And I really take offense at the Republican candidates calling taxes "stealing." Few like paying taxes, but it's the price we pay to live in a civilized society. It's beyond dumb to act like taxes are stealing or that we could survive as a nation without them.
It's hard to take the "we need to tax you for this and that" routine, when the ones who make that happen often are exempt themselves. It is even more disturbing that they are usually pushing these proposals at the behest of the campaign contributors who helped to get them elected.
Americans having a problem with the faux pas of government is a good thing. I would go as far to say that it is absolutely necessary.
Without citizens saying their piece and taking issue with government. Government would simply walk and trample all over you, me and every other citizen in this nation.
 
And I really take offense at the Republican candidates calling taxes "stealing." Few like paying taxes, but it's the price we pay to live in a civilized society. It's beyond dumb to act like taxes are stealing or that we could survive as a nation without them.

If taxes were an equitable way for citizens to share the cost of government, I'd agree with you. But when taxes are relaxed as an incentive do to certain things, or imposed as a punishment for otherwise lawful behavior, then it most certainly does become government extortion.
 
Everything I've read says that Obamacare has helped the economy. Not only has it gotten tens of millions coverage, it has done so while costs slowed. Additionally, it has been well cited that Obamacare was the program that kept our GDP growth out of the negative when we go excruciatingly close a few years ago.
I would take the reports with a grain of salt. The White House itself warned of a coming increase of the premiums. I do not have the data to say how much that will be, but I've read up to 30 percent.
The government put a lot of restrictions and standards that are simply unrealistic. I've heard this from insurance companies, Doctors, healthcare plan managers, and many people closely related to the business.
Seeing the increase of my premiums and also knowing that the rest of America saw that same increase is enough to tell me, that Obamacare is not doing what it proposed.
I've read multiple outlets, including Liberal ones, that heavily criticize Obamacare.
 
LOL, minimum wage HURTS millions. Here's what your great programs do for people who are truly in need:


You're a store owner and a homeless guy comes in and says he's really hungry, doesn't want to beg, and asks if there's any work he can do for you... sweeping, painting, cleaning... anything for a enough money to get a meal. Legally, you'd have to pay the minimum wage, provide workers comp, pay payroll taxes, pay unemployment insurance taxes, run him through I-9 and E-Verify to make sure he's not an illegal alien, and all the other crap our benevolent government has imposed on employers.

"No," you tell the poor homeless guy, "there's nothing I can do for you."

Here's a guy who wants to work, but the government makes it so damn hard to hire anyone, that you sweep your own floor and he has to resort to begging or going hungry.

Ah, what a country!

Oh, and workers comp benefits employers, not the other way around. It provides a framework for claims to minimize the ability of lawyers to make mountains out of mole hills and get outrageous damages.
I find it interesting that paying poor people less, taking away their worker's comp, unemployment, and ever other social benefit will somehow result in them being better off. I disagree. But it is an interesting idea.

But let's assume you get your way. There is no minimum wage. Will the store owner hire the homeless guy? Probably not. Not many businesses I know will give unkempt and often mentally ill people jobs. But even if they did, the wages would be so low, that the guy would still be homeless. Meanwhile all his other workers would probably start making less, since the store owner could get away with it, so on net, everyone would be worse off.
 
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If taxes were an equitable way for citizens to share the cost of government, I'd agree with you. But when taxes are relaxed as an incentive do to certain things, or imposed as a punishment for otherwise lawful behavior, then it most certainly does become government extortion.

I would have to totally agree with this. Though I do agree that some taxes are most definitely needed for certain things. Roads, certain environmental factors, and military of course.
Government has a history of trying to take more and more. They have nothing but themselves to blame for their lack of support from its citizens.
 
I would take the reports with a grain of salt. The White House itself warned of a coming increase of the premiums. I do not have the data to say how much that will be, but I've read up to 30 percent.
The government put a lot of restrictions and standards that are simply unrealistic. I've heard this from insurance companies, Doctors, healthcare plan managers, and many people closely related to the business.
Seeing the increase of my premiums and also knowing that the rest of America saw that same increase is enough to tell me, that Obamacare is not doing what it proposed.
I've read multiple outlets, including Liberal ones, that heavily criticize Obamacare.
So on one hand we have your own personal anecdotes and on the other hand we have actual studies conducted by actual experts. Excuse me, but I think I'll believe the experts first.
 
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I would have to totally agree with this. Though I do agree that some taxes are most definitely needed for certain things. Roads, certain environmental factors, and military of course.
Government has a history of trying to take more and more. They have nothing but themselves to blame for their lack of support from its citizens.
As well as education, healthcare, and social programs like SS to ensure that the number of people in poverty is kept at a minimum.
 
So on one hand we have your own personal anecdotes and on the other hand we have actual studies conducted by actual experts. Excuse me, but I think I'll believe the experts first.
That's fine with me, but personal experience is never to be taken less seriously than reports made by those that wish to convey a view that garners positive attention to their side of the argument.
Ask anyone around you in the working field what they think about Obamacare. I would bet on them not having an overall pleasant opinion of it.
My rates raised $300 in two years, and the may jump another $100 by next years time. Does that support the experts opinions and do they factor that into their data? If they do, then how are they convincing you that all is fine?
 
Additionally, we should also pay taxes for handling disasters, the penal system, the courts systems in general, and oversight agencies like the FDA and the EPA.
 
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As well as education, healthcare, and social programs like SS to ensure that the number of people in poverty is kept at a minimum.
Governments foray into education hasn't done much in my opinion. The Department of Education in particular has failed completely. I can't see one positive aspect of it, since it's inception.
 
Governments foray into education hasn't done much in my opinion. The Department of Education in particular has failed completely. I can't see one positive aspect of it, since it's inception.
The Department of Education could stand a major overhaul, but it has beyond a doubt succeeded in at least providing a minimum standard of education for our country. Could it do far better? You bet. But without it millions of children would be at the mercy of local government who may or may not care about education.
 
Additionally, we should also pay taxes for handling disasters, the penal system, the courts systems in general, and oversight agencies like the FDA and the EPA.
Fair enough, but do you propose we do this and pay for our military scope all at the same time? Do you see that as realistic in the long run?
 
The Department of Education could stand a major overhaul, but it has beyond a doubt succeeded in at least providing a minimum standard of education for our country. Could it do far better? You bet. But without it millions of children would be at the mercy of local government who may or may not care about education.
What exactly has it done do see? The only thing that has gone up number wise is school shootings. ACT and SAT scores have remained the same the last time I looked the statistics up.
Public schooling was always available. I'm just not sure I want government telling people how to teach our kids.
 
What exactly has it done do see? The only thing that has gone up number wise is school shootings. ACT and SAT scores have remained the same the last time I looked the statistics up.
Public schooling was always available. I'm just not sure I want government telling people how to teach our kids.
You're really going out on a limb here to suggest that the DoE is increasing the number of school shootings. I think you should re examine that statement.

As for public schools, yes, they existed long before the DoE, but you never knew what you were going to get out of them. Some towns were great in educating their kids. Others sucked. What the DoE has done is to set mimimum standards for all schools. Some never get there, but at least there is some sort of accountability. Leave education totally up to the towns and it's a crap shoot of what job they will do.
 
I find it interesting that paying poor people less, taking away their worker's comp, unemployment, and ever other social benefit will somehow result in them being better off. I disagree. But it is an interesting idea.

But let's assume you get your way. There is no minimum wage. Will the store owner hire the homeless guy? Probably not. Not many businesses I know will give unkempt and often mentally ill people jobs. But even if they did, the wages would be so low, that the guy would still be homeless. Meanwhile all his other workers would probably start making less, since the store owner could get away with it, so on net, everyone would be worse off.

When you create a wage floor for the labor market, there are some people who are simply shut out of the labor market. Either way, we'll have to take care of these people, but if allowed to work and make something, then the burden on society isn't as great.

And of course you have a black market for labor, too, which is always a good thing.
 
When you create a wage floor for the labor market, there are some people who are simply shut out of the labor market. Either way, we'll have to take care of these people, but if allowed to work and make something, then the burden on society isn't as great.

And of course you have a black market for labor, too, which is always a good thing.
Speaking of the rest of us having to pay for these people, it's happening even with the minimum wage. Just look at all the WalMart backlash. Remove the minimum wage and the rest of us will have to start paying even more.
 
You're really going out on a limb here to suggest that the DoE is increasing the number of school shootings. I think you should re examine that statement.

As for public schools, yes, they existed long before the DoE, but you never knew what you were going to get out of them. Some towns were great in educating their kids. Others sucked. What the DoE has done is to set mimimum standards for all schools. Some never get there, but at least there is some sort of accountability. Leave education totally up to the towns and it's a crap shoot of what job they will do.
I'll continue this when I have more time, but I would like to clarify my position. That is not at all what I meant. It was an attempt at humor as to what has increased since the DoE has been around.
I'll respond to the rest later, as I have much to say about it.
 
Speaking of the rest of us having to pay for these people, it's happening even with the minimum wage. Just look at all the WalMart backlash. Remove the minimum wage and the rest of us will have to start paying even more.

Wrong. There will be more opportunities for the least-skilled among us. If you make something expensive, you get less of it. That's what minimum wage does, limits job growth for the marginal.
 
Wrong. There will be more opportunities for the least-skilled among us. If you make something expensive, you get less of it. That's what minimum wage does, limits job growth for the marginal.
I'm struggling to understand how paying people less with lead to them being more exceptional?
 
If your doctor doesn't participate in Medicare, then no, you have no coverage to see that doctor.

No, but there are a lot of doctors who do. Its not like there is only one.

In a true single payer they would all be participating or not practicing. There are no uninsured. You can buy a supplement, but everyone has a base level of coverage. Just like the UK or Canada or the rest of the civilized world.
 
I'm struggling to understand how paying people less with lead to them being more exceptional?

When you have a job, you are taught some job skills. Once those skills are mastered, you can then market those skills to other employers and get better jobs.

But if the "down and out" guy can't get anyone to give him a job and teach him some skills, he's kinda stuck and must depend upon society for everything required for his existence, be it government assistance or the charity of strangers.
 
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