Are we in Putin's camp?

[jonesy5960]

People on the right like to say we are still on the side of right vs wrong and democracy vs fascism. Of course we want Ukraine to defeat Russia and for Putin to be stopped. We just don't want to keep spending money we don't have so we are cutting off funding.

And yet everything the administration is doing suggests the opposite. Trump called Zelenskyy a dictator and blamed them for starting the war. The administration voted with North Korea and Russia on a U.N. resolution to label Russia as the aggressor in the war. They dress down and belittle Zelenskyy in the oval office in front of the entire world. The administration ordered the DOD to stop any kind of cyber activity directed towards Russia. The administration just ordered the DOD and CIA to stop sharing intelligence with Ukraine on things like Russian troop movements, again to the direct detriment of Ukraine in favor of Russian troops. Every one of these actions has the effect of hurting Ukraine and strengthening Putin's hand in the war in any negotiations. Meanwhile Russian authorities are cheering the administration at every turn while European countries are sounding the alarm suggesting that a new world order has emerged where the U.S. has abandoned its traditional allies in favor of a new alliance with Russia.

Tell me what I'm missing here.

 

[Formerly Rockymtnole]

Nothing.

 

[Scruddy]

Zalensky dressed himself down lol

 

[Capernum]

We’re the bad guys now. They aren’t even pretending to wear the white hat at this point.

 

[RagnarLothbrok]

Tell me what I'm missing here.

Apparently Zelenskyy’s wardrobe malfunctions:

Zalensky dressed himself down lol

 

[ISUBryce]

I listened to Niall Ferguson/Sam Harris interview on this and Niall basically compared Trumps foreign policy to Nixon.

He believes that Trumps position is that America is fundamentally weaker than we think and we need to pick our battles.

He doesn’t want to be opposed to Russia, Iran, and China at the same time. He wants Europe to handle Russia, Israel to handle the Middle East, and he believes the US’s main rival will be China on an ongoing basis so he wants resources freed up for that challenge.

Basically he believes in the old Cold War spheres of influence type foreign policy. I think that’s giving Trump a bit more credit than is due but if you are looking at things in that way, his foreign policy at least makes sense.

 

[hawkjt]

Reagan is spinning in his grave
Apparently his battling the evil empire was mis- guided. Putin was KGB then and Reagan should have been his friend like trump instead of decimating the USSR.

 

[FlickShagwell]

Zalensky dressed himself down lol

Here’s your answer right here, @jonesy5960 .

 

[Bonerfarts]

 

[ping72]

Methinks the WW3 side of Russia/USA/North Korea will not be viewed as the good guys against Europe and Canada.

 

[seminole97]

We’re the bad guys now. They aren’t even pretending to wear the white hat at this point.

How long were your eyes shut?

 

[franklinman]

Yep, CORRUPT Filthy Don is 100% all in with Russia and his butt buddy PUKIE.

 

[RagnarLothbrok]

I listened to Niall Ferguson/Sam Harris interview on this and Niall basically compared Trumps foreign policy to Nixon.

He believes that Trumps position is that America is fundamentally weaker than we think and we need to pick our battles.

He doesn’t want to be opposed to Russia, Iran, and China at the same time. He wants Europe to handle Russia, Israel to handle the Middle East, and he believes the US’s main rival will be China on an ongoing basis so he wants resources freed up for that challenge.

Basically he believes in the old Cold War spheres of influence type foreign policy. I think that’s giving Trump a bit more credit than is due but if you are looking at things in that way, his foreign policy at least makes sense.

Except for the fact Trump slobs Putin’s knob every chance he gets and indiscriminately gives the middle finger to our allies.

I like Sam Harris, but that is giving Trump’s “concept” planning way too much credit.

 

[Rifler]

The US is positioning itself as mediator of a peace deal,.. The Ukrainian cheerleader costume no longer fits...

 

[LunchBox50]

Zalensky dressed himself down lol

Speaking of dressing down — Arnold Palmer would get undressed and reveal his huge dick.

 

[king_henry5]

Speaking of dressing down — Arnold Palmer would get undressed and reveal his huge dick.

Do you think Trump likes Palmers dick are Putins dick more?

 

[soybean]

Trump does not make the normal geo-political views/decisions that we have come to expect from out POTUS since WW II. Instead he makes decision based only upon his personal bottom line. He sees Russia not as a threat, but an opportunity instead. In the old Soviet era the Russians would have referred to Trump as a "useful fool" and nothing more.

 

[jonesy5960]

Nothing.

I'm really looking for a few righties who believe this idea is preposterous to explain these actions in a different light. I see very little distance between the Trump administration and Putin right now. We're it not for the history behind all of these alliances, these actions in a vacuum would suggest only one thing.

 

[BioHawk]

I listened to Niall Ferguson/Sam Harris interview on this and Niall basically compared Trumps foreign policy to Nixon.

He believes that Trumps position is that America is fundamentally weaker than we think and we need to pick our battles.

He doesn’t want to be opposed to Russia, Iran, and China at the same time. He wants Europe to handle Russia, Israel to handle the Middle East, and he believes the US’s main rival will be China on an ongoing basis so he wants resources freed up for that challenge.

Basically he believes in the old Cold War spheres of influence type foreign policy. I think that’s giving Trump a bit more credit than is due but if you are looking at things in that way, his foreign policy at least makes sense.

I only wish he thought as deeply as this. I wish he actually thought we can't be opposed to Russia, Iran, and China at the same time. But that is miles beyond his level of thinking. They've paid him off, clear and simple. Probably in more ways than just money.

I only wish we had Nixon's foreign policy at this point. At least Nixon still wanted America to function as a country.

 

[Mister_Man]

I listened to Niall Ferguson/Sam Harris interview on this and Niall basically compared Trumps foreign policy to Nixon.

He believes that Trumps position is that America is fundamentally weaker than we think and we need to pick our battles.

He doesn’t want to be opposed to Russia, Iran, and China at the same time. He wants Europe to handle Russia, Israel to handle the Middle East, and he believes the US’s main rival will be China on an ongoing basis so he wants resources freed up for that challenge.

Basically he believes in the old Cold War spheres of influence type foreign policy. I think that’s giving Trump a bit more credit than is due but if you are looking at things in that way, his foreign policy at least makes sense.

The old philosophy of Trump must be playing 18d chess to explain his idiotic decisions.

 

[jonesy5960]

I listened to Niall Ferguson/Sam Harris interview on this and Niall basically compared Trumps foreign policy to Nixon.

He believes that Trumps position is that America is fundamentally weaker than we think and we need to pick our battles.

He doesn’t want to be opposed to Russia, Iran, and China at the same time. He wants Europe to handle Russia, Israel to handle the Middle East, and he believes the US’s main rival will be China on an ongoing basis so he wants resources freed up for that challenge.

Basically he believes in the old Cold War spheres of influence type foreign policy. I think that’s giving Trump a bit more credit than is due but if you are looking at things in that way, his foreign policy at least makes sense.

So the difference between what we are doing here and the Cold War era is that the U.S. as the single most powerful country on the planet was always in a leadership role. Although Europe collectively has more resources than Russia, there is no dominant country that can fill that void. This is much like what we saw in the 1930's when Nazi Germany saw only a group of countries with no dominant leadership with which to oppose them.

 

[win4jj]

It’s sickening to see us align with Russia.

 

[Mister_Man]

It’s sickening to see us align with Russia.

Because Russia is apparently thankful.

 

[jonesy5960]

Trump does not make the normal geo-political views/decisions that we have come to expect from out POTUS since WW II. Instead he makes decision based only upon his personal bottom line. He sees Russia not as a threat, but an opportunity instead. In the old Soviet era the Russians would have referred to Trump as a "useful fool" and nothing more.

Well he's definitely useful to them. Whether he's a fool or not is open to debate.

 

[IANDFAN]

I listened to Niall Ferguson/Sam Harris interview on this and Niall basically compared Trumps foreign policy to Nixon.

He believes that Trumps position is that America is fundamentally weaker than we think and we need to pick our battles.

He doesn’t want to be opposed to Russia, Iran, and China at the same time. He wants Europe to handle Russia, Israel to handle the Middle East, and he believes the US’s main rival will be China on an ongoing basis so he wants resources freed up for that challenge.

Basically he believes in the old Cold War spheres of influence type foreign policy. I think that’s giving Trump a bit more credit than is due but if you are looking at things in that way, his foreign policy at least makes sense.

Does this strategy make sense though? We are alienating our allies at a time Trump assumes we are weaker than we believe.

 

[BrianNole777]

Yes.

Trump's dream is to become the Vladimir Putin of the United States.

Luckily for us, Trump is 78 years old and won't be dictator for 25+ years like Putin.

 

[win4jj]

Because Russia is apparently thankful.

Bigly.

 

[Rifler]

It’s sickening to see us align with Russia.

If China becomes the problem they aspire to be, the west needs to have Russia inside it's sphere of influence,.. The current pissing match is not favorable for our future.

 

[Jerome Silberman]

I listened to Niall Ferguson/Sam Harris interview on this and Niall basically compared Trumps foreign policy to Nixon.

He believes that Trumps position is that America is fundamentally weaker than we think and we need to pick our battles.

He doesn’t want to be opposed to Russia, Iran, and China at the same time. He wants Europe to handle Russia, Israel to handle the Middle East, and he believes the US’s main rival will be China on an ongoing basis so he wants resources freed up for that challenge.

Basically he believes in the old Cold War spheres of influence type foreign policy. I think that’s giving Trump a bit more credit than is due but if you are looking at things in that way, his foreign policy at least makes sense.

That's an interesting opinion, I feel like Trump just can't manage the highly complex relationships required for that level of diplomacy and planning.

 

[jonesy5960]

If China becomes the problem they aspire to be, the west needs to have Russia inside it's sphere of influence,.. The current pissing match is not favorable for our future.

Do you believe that Russia under Putin is an honest broker and a potentially reliable ally? Do you see an emboldened Putin and a weaker Europe as a positive development?

 

[Bearhawk0505]

This regime is pushing us to the dark side unfortunately. We must resist.

 

[Rifler]

Do you believe that Russia under Putin is an honest broker and a potentially reliable ally? Do you see an emboldened Putin and a weaker Europe as a positive development?

Russia under Putin is a tool, just like Russia under Stalin was a tool, honesty and reliability don't apply,.. And on your other question, Putin is far from emboldened right now, that's why he's willing to talk peace deal.

 

[LuciousBDragon]

People on the right like to say we are still on the side of right vs wrong and democracy vs fascism. Of course we want Ukraine to defeat Russia and for Putin to be stopped. We just don't want to keep spending money we don't have so we are cutting off funding.

And yet everything the administration is doing suggests the opposite. Trump called Zelenskyy a dictator and blamed them for starting the war. The administration voted with North Korea and Russia on a U.N. resolution to label Russia as the aggressor in the war. They dress down and belittle Zelenskyy in the oval office in front of the entire world. The administration ordered the DOD to stop any kind of cyber activity directed towards Russia. The administration just ordered the DOD and CIA to stop sharing intelligence with Ukraine on things like Russian troop movements, again to the direct detriment of Ukraine in favor of Russian troops. Every one of these actions has the effect of hurting Ukraine and strengthening Putin's hand in the war in any negotiations. Meanwhile Russian authorities are cheering the administration at every turn while European countries are sounding the alarm suggesting that a new world order has emerged where the U.S. has abandoned its traditional allies in favor of a new alliance with Russia.

Tell me what I'm missing here.

I think a fundamental problem in the information war is that individuals are looking at Ukraine as a sovereign nation. Whereas the powers that be (on both sides) have zero desire for Ukraine’s sovereignty. Russia wants the land and the west wants total influence. Russia wants to push west against NATO and the west wants a puppet state. Both sides take turns influencing its leadership.

Putin obviously has his wishes and the west is content fighting Russia through a proxy entity. NATO membership for Ukraine is off the table.

I think the only way this ends (and by end I mean long-term pause) unfortunately is Russia retains Crimea and gains sections in the east and north. Then a large DMZ gets set up probably backing up all the way to the Dnieper. A true end requires Putin dying and a full coup. Always a chance but I’m not betting on it right now.

Europe has a reckoning due now that they simultaneously want to defend itself and also get off the Russia energy teet. Trump knows Europe is beginning a very long struggle with demographics that will reshape the continent and its economy. German GDP is shrinking.

Trump knows all this is a “you” problem and not a “we” problem. The time has come to create a little separation from our European ancestry. Emotionally, it’s the wrong thing to do. Ultimately, it’s the right thing to do.

If Ukraine still wants our involvement, the costs have gone up and we are no longer interested in a decade long slug fest where the best outcome is a stalemate.

Since it began, I was of the opinion that a 10-15 year slug fest was worth it. Sucks, but worth it since it gave the best possible outcome. But, now I am questioning the long term strength of Europe knowing they are facing an aging population problem and inevitable shrinking of GDP. They are the cutest pony to bet on, but definitely not the fastest.

CSB

 

[win4jj]

If China becomes the problem they aspire to be, the west needs to have Russia inside it's sphere of influence,.. The current pissing match is not favorable for our future.

Not while Russia is killing innocent people in Ukraine.

 

[jonesy5960]

Russia under Putin is a tool, just like Russia under Stalin was a tool, honesty and reliability don't apply,.. And on your other question, Putin is far from emboldened right now, that's why he's willing to talk peace deal.

You didn't answer my question. You suggested that the United States needed Russia as a bulwark against Chinese ambitions. How can Russia be an ally in this equation?

You couldn't be more wrong or naive about Putin. The actions of this administration have encouraged him and his allies. They see a friend today as opposed to an obstacle. They see the end of the war with no requirements or concessions on his part. In short, they see unequivocal and complete capitulation. They see a win.

 

[St. Louis Hawk]

Is there any action that this Administratuon has taken that isn’t pro-Russia?

Removing Ukrainians’ protected status
Stop sharing intel w/ Ukraine
Pause arms shipments to Ukraine
Claim Zelensky is a dictator
WH shit show w/ Zalensky
Threaten to not honor NATO agreement
State that Ukraine has no say in its future

That’s a Putin wet dream.

 

[Bulldogs1974]

I asked before: what more could trump do to prove he's a putin asset.

 

[jonesy5960]

I think a fundamental problem in the information war is that individuals are looking at Ukraine as a sovereign nation. Whereas the powers that be (on both sides) have zero desire for Ukraine’s sovereignty. Russia wants the land and the west wants total influence. Russia wants to push west against NATO and the west wants a puppet state. Both sides take turns influencing its leadership.

Putin obviously has his wishes and the west is content fighting Russia through a proxy entity. NATO membership for Ukraine is off the table.

I think the only way this ends (and by end I mean long-term pause) unfortunately is Russia retains Crimea and gains sections in the east and north. Then a large DMZ gets set up probably backing up all the way to the Dnieper. A true end requires Putin dying and a full coup. Always a chance but I’m not betting on it right now.

Europe has a reckoning due now that they simultaneously want to defend itself and also get off the Russia energy teet. Trump knows Europe is beginning a very long struggle with demographics that will reshape the continent and its economy. German GDP is shrinking.

Trump knows all this is a “you” problem and not a “we” problem. The time has come to create a little separation from our European ancestry. Emotionally, it’s the wrong thing to do. Ultimately, it’s the right thing to do.

If Ukraine still wants our involvement, the costs have gone up and we are no longer interested in a decade long slug fest where the best outcome is a stalemate.

Since it began, I was of the opinion that a 10-15 year slug fest was worth it. Sucks, but worth it since it gave the best possible outcome. But, now I am questioning the long term strength of Europe knowing they are facing an aging population problem and inevitable shrinking of GDP. They are the cutest pony to bet on, but definitely not the fastest.

CSB

So essentially you agree then that the administration is drifting away from Europe and towards Russia and you agree with the direction.

 

[LuciousBDragon]

So essentially you agree then that the administration is drifting away from Europe and towards Russia and you agree with the direction.

Drifting away - yes

Towards Russia - no

I think Trump is saying if you want our involvement then this all ends now. We are not doing this for another ten years.

 

[ThorneStockton]

Is there any action that this Administratuon has taken that isn’t pro-Russia?

Removing Ukrainians’ protected status
Stop sharing intel w/ Ukraine
Pause arms shipments to Ukraine
Claim Zelensky is a dictator
WH shit show w/ Zalensky
Threaten to not honor NATO agreement
State that Ukraine has no say in its future

That’s a Putin wet dream.

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Add in trade war with traditional allies, Tulsi at DNI, promotion of business in Russia.

I'll be surprised if the sanctions aren't dropped shortly.