Attendance and the 7-home game thing

[anon_i8nzeu2gbf0ba]

Northwestern, Illinois, Indiana, Maryland, and Rutgers all average about 40,000 fans per home football game. Iowa averages about 67,000. Over six games, the first five schools mentioned draw about 240,000. Iowa draws about 402,000—160,000 more over six games. So after doing that math, I am not sure why we keep hearing that Iowa HAS to have SEVEN home games every season. And I’m also not sure how NW, Illinois, Indiana, Maryland, and Rutgers survive when they draw about 280,000 for seven home games while Iowa draws about 469,000.


At the same time, how do any of those schools compete with Ohio State (107,000 per game / 752,000 season total for 7 games), Michigan (111,000 / 669,000 for 6), and Penn State (106,000 / 746,000 for 7).


The official attendance figures can be found here: http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/football_records/Attendance/2017.pdf


Ohio State, Michigan, and Penn State out-draw Iowa each season by about 300,000 over seven games.


Anyway, just thought I’d throw the numbers out there and see what others think about them.

 

[Titanhawk2]

Did you see the article about the athletic department having made a $1M profit last year after two years of deficits? They spend $130M a year, football revenue is one of the biggest contriibutors

 

[Hawktimism]

So let me see if I'm understanding this correctly. You believe Iowa football would gain more by playing on the road vs a decent opponent rather than making millions of dollars to invest into the football program?

 

[MepoDawg#]

Basically you want to cut non-revenue sports to make it a possibility for Iowa to schedule only 6 home games.

You can’t look at just the attendance figures, you have to look at the $ amounts. You’re looking at $4-$6 million in revenue just for tickets depending on level of opponent. Add in $500k-$1.5 mil for concessions not counting parking or apparel sales. Add in the revenue and sales tax generated for all other local businesses and you can see why they won’t do it very often.

 

[anon_8rcdnbko1jbe0]

Basically you want to cut non-revenue sports to make it a possibility for Iowa to schedule only 6 home games.

You can’t look at just the attendance figures, you have to look at the $ amounts. You’re looking at $4-$6 million in revenue just for tickets depending on level of opponent. Add in $500k-$1.5 mil for concessions not counting parking or apparel sales. Add in the revenue and sales tax generated for all other local businesses and you can see why they won’t do it very often.

Great responses in this thread. As a fan I'm a selfish as the next. I want Iowa to win the national championship and to win a Big Ten Championship and to increase their overall National exposure. But not at the detriment of the athletic department's Financial Health. Football is the largest revenue generator in the athletic department. Don't mess with it.

 

[anon_gjzkhykcp9iuj]

Y'all seem to be forgetting the big ticket capital projects. There are only so many of those, and sans those, there is plenty of revenue. And other universities seem to be able to schedule 6 games and survive. I'm not saying we should go to six games, but the argument against it isn't a very good one. The argument against it is all about money, not about what is best for fans or the game.

 

[milehighhawkeye24]

Northwestern, Illinois, Indiana, Maryland, and Rutgers all average about 40,000 fans per home football game. Iowa averages about 67,000. Over six games, the first five schools mentioned draw about 240,000. Iowa draws about 402,000—160,000 more over six games. So after doing that math, I am not sure why we keep hearing that Iowa HAS to have SEVEN home games every season. And I’m also not sure how NW, Illinois, Indiana, Maryland, and Rutgers survive when they draw about 280,000 for seven home games while Iowa draws about 469,000.


At the same time, how do any of those schools compete with Ohio State (107,000 per game / 752,000 season total for 7 games), Michigan (111,000 / 669,000 for 6), and Penn State (106,000 / 746,000 for 7).


The official attendance figures can be found here: http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/football_records/Attendance/2017.pdf


Ohio State, Michigan, and Penn State out-draw Iowa each season by about 300,000 over seven games.


Anyway, just thought I’d throw the numbers out there and see what others think about them.

Those schools you mention bring in the largest revenues and have largest athletic budgets in the country, trying to figure out how they are able to do that, how are the facilities so nice? (sarcasm)

 

[MepoDawg#]

Y'all seem to be forgetting the big ticket capital projects. There are only so many of those, and sans those, there is plenty of revenue. And other universities seem to be able to schedule 6 games and survive. I'm not saying we should go to six games, but the argument against it isn't a very good one. The argument against it is all about money, not about what is best for fans or the game.

You really think capital projects will stop? Capital projects benefit the fans in game day experience and enabling Iowa to recruit better due to facilities, winning equals more butts in the seats and fans willing to pay higher prices. Its a cycle, thus why Iowa had a deficit the year they went undefeated in regular season. People weren’t as interested due the poor season before. Also, don’t forget the legislators want Iowa to give up more money to give to UNI.

 

[LinusPF]

It's a valid question. At least by Sears Director's Cup standards, Northwestern, Illinois, Indiana and Maryland have more successful overall athletic programs than Iowa. Sorta goes against the argument that Iowa needs seven home games to survive. Too lazy to do the research, but a counter-argument may be that Iowa needs more income than those other 6-home-game programs because, as a small population state, we need a greater recruiting budget. We need to travel more to find our athletes.

 

[sober_teacher]

It's a valid question. At least by Sears Director's Cup standards, Northwestern, Illinois, Indiana and Maryland have more successful overall athletic programs than Iowa. Sorta goes against the argument that Iowa needs seven home games to survive. Too lazy to do the research, but a counter-argument may be that Iowa needs more income than those other 6-home-game programs because, as a small population state, we need a greater recruiting budget. We need to travel more to find our athletes.

It’s a false premise. Most, if not all, power 5 schools play 7 home games at minimum, or play one at a neutral site where the money is more/equal to a home game, each year.

Also, only approximately 25% of college athletic departments turn a profit each year or break even. Iowa does so regularly.

 

[iahawkeyes17]

Northwestern, Illinois, Indiana, Maryland, and Rutgers all average about 40,000 fans per home football game. Iowa averages about 67,000. Over six games, the first five schools mentioned draw about 240,000. Iowa draws about 402,000—160,000 more over six games. So after doing that math, I am not sure why we keep hearing that Iowa HAS to have SEVEN home games every season. And I’m also not sure how NW, Illinois, Indiana, Maryland, and Rutgers survive when they draw about 280,000 for seven home games while Iowa draws about 469,000.


At the same time, how do any of those schools compete with Ohio State (107,000 per game / 752,000 season total for 7 games), Michigan (111,000 / 669,000 for 6), and Penn State (106,000 / 746,000 for 7).


The official attendance figures can be found here: http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/football_records/Attendance/2017.pdf


Ohio State, Michigan, and Penn State out-draw Iowa each season by about 300,000 over seven games.


Anyway, just thought I’d throw the numbers out there and see what others think about them.

Because from a $ standpoint why would you pass on all that extra revenue? Anyone with any business seems would thing so and I’m Sure couple people in the Tippie Business school at Iowa would agree. I guess they don’t have to have 7 but it’s pretty dumb not to and why majority of power 5 teams do. Let’s see play one extra road game or play an extra home game and make lot more cash for the athletic department. Plus let’s not forget football is the main sport that supports and funds the other sports minus b-ball and wrestling.

 

[TheGuy9]

It's a valid question. At least by Sears Director's Cup standards, Northwestern, Illinois, Indiana and Maryland have more successful overall athletic programs than Iowa. Sorta goes against the argument that Iowa needs seven home games to survive. Too lazy to do the research, but a counter-argument may be that Iowa needs more income than those other 6-home-game programs because, as a small population state, we need a greater recruiting budget. We need to travel more to find our athletes.

Nope. It all comes down to how you finance your sports. The University of Iowa athletic department is 100% self funded. Many schools are not and receive monies from a general fund or from the state. Also using the Directors Cup as criteria isn't useful. Points are awarded in 40 different sports. Iowa participates in 21 sports. Heck Northwestern competes in more sports than Iowa (22). The teams near the top of the cup tend to compete in way more sports than the teams in the middle. As for how does Northwestern get by with only 6 home games it's called RICH Alumni. Their endowment fund is about eight times greater than Iowa's.
Oh and their facilities aside from the Basketball and Football stadiums are actually quite nice. Want to play soccer, lacrosse, or field hockey at Northwestern, you are literally playing on very nice athletic turf on the shore of Lake Michigan and you get points for all of these sports.

 

[nu2u]

Northwestern, Illinois, Indiana, Maryland, and Rutgers all average about 40,000 fans per home football game.

Minnesota home attendance is in that ballpark also.

The Gophers officially claimed an average of 43,800 for the 2017 season but there were many no-shows. TCF Bank Stadium maximum capacity is 50,805 -- it is among the smallest stadiums in the B10 Conference and they still can't consistently reach sell out.

Also, hiring Fleck didn't help. Season ticket sales are down heading into 2018 season.and renewals have declined by about 15%. Row the Boat.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

Northwestern, Illinois, Indiana, Maryland, and Rutgers all average about 40,000 fans per home football game. Iowa averages about 67,000. Over six games, the first five schools mentioned draw about 240,000. Iowa draws about 402,000—160,000 more over six games. So after doing that math, I am not sure why we keep hearing that Iowa HAS to have SEVEN home games every season. And I’m also not sure how NW, Illinois, Indiana, Maryland, and Rutgers survive when they draw about 280,000 for seven home games while Iowa draws about 469,000.


At the same time, how do any of those schools compete with Ohio State (107,000 per game / 752,000 season total for 7 games), Michigan (111,000 / 669,000 for 6), and Penn State (106,000 / 746,000 for 7).


The official attendance figures can be found here: http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/football_records/Attendance/2017.pdf


Ohio State, Michigan, and Penn State out-draw Iowa each season by about 300,000 over seven games.


Anyway, just thought I’d throw the numbers out there and see what others think about them.

There's an interesting correlation between those schools with more revenue than us and their success on the gridiron vs those with less and theirs (relative to Iowa). We should definitely plan to model our revenue stream after that of rutgers, Illinois and Indiana given how great their football programs are.

 

[SWIowahawks]

I’m not sure what the OP is getting at but Wisconsin hasn’t gone broke with 6 home games and a neutral site game. I don’t buy the argument that Iowa can’t swing it just once.

 

[sober_teacher]

I’m not sure what the OP is getting at but Wisconsin hasn’t gone broke with 6 home games and a neutral site game. I don’t buy the argument that Iowa can’t swing it just once.

They have played at soldier filed before. It does take two to tango and I don’t see power 5 programs lining up to play Iowa at the moment.

I want it to happen too, but things have to lineup elsewhere. Wisconsin managed to parlay a historically great time in their history into their neutral site games against elite competitors.

 

[anon_i8nzeu2gbf0ba]

I’m not sure what the OP is getting at but Wisconsin hasn’t gone broke with 6 home games and a neutral site game. I don’t buy the argument that Iowa can’t swing it just once.

You DO get it. That's fundamentally what I was trying to say. But I used actual attendance figures to point out what seems to me to be an absurdity.

Most of the other responses have been disappointing, apparently because they don't get my point--or don't want to--which is pretty simple: How can one more home football game (7 instead of 6) be crucial to the viability of the Iowa Athletic Department when about half the conference makes less money on 7 football games than Iowa makes on 6? And extrapolating from that, then why does Iowa use the excuse that it MUST have the money from 7 home games, and so it CANNOT schedule a neutral site game with an attractive opponent or even play a home-and-away series because it might mean only 6 home games some seasons?

THAT'S what I'm trying to get at--the logic of it all. So far, it still escapes me, although a couple of posts teetered on the edge of addressing that.

 

[SWIowahawks]

You DO get it. That's fundamentally what I was trying to get at.

Most of the other responses have been disappointing, apparently because they don't get my point--or don't want to--which is pretty simple: How can one more home football game (7 instead of 6) be crucial to the viability of the Iowa Athletic Department when about half the conference makes less money on 7 football games than Iowa makes on 6? And extrapolating from that, then why does Iowa use the excuse that it MUST have the money from 7 home games, and so it CANNOT schedule a neutral site game with an attractive opponent or even play a home-and-away series because it might mean only 6 home games some seasons.

THAT'S what I'm trying to get at--the logic of it all. So far, it still escapes me, although a couple of posts teetered on the edge of addressing that.

I’ve asked this question in almost every thread about scheduling. No one ever responds.

 

[anon_i8nzeu2gbf0ba]

Well, you asked a great question, and now you're not alone.

 

[SWIowahawks]

They have played at soldier filed before. It does take two to tango and I don’t see power 5 programs lining up to play Iowa at the moment.

I want it to happen too, but things have to lineup elsewhere. Wisconsin managed to parlay a historically great time in their history into their neutral site games against elite competitors.

Iowa played at Soldier Field in a season where they had 7 home games. I’m assuming with NIU being the opponent, the University took home a much larger chunk than if they split with another P5 conference.

That’s what we are asking. How can Wisconsin do it twice but Iowa can’t do it once? The AD says it’s because of 7 home games and financials. So our next question to Barta would/should be, why would it hurt Iowa but not Wisconsin?

 

[sober_teacher]

Iowa played at Soldier Field in a season where they had 7 home games. I’m assuming with NIU being the opponent, the University took home a much larger chunk than if they split with another P5 conference.

That’s what we are asking. How can Wisconsin do it twice but Iowa can’t do it once? The AD says it’s because of 7 home games and financials. So our next question to Barta would/should be, why would it hurt Iowa but not Wisconsin?[/

Well, first, as I said, Wisconsin is at the apex of the highest their program has ever been, so they’re getting much higher quality games and money than we would right now.

Who are the elite programs that would do this right now with Iowa? I’d love to see a neutral site game, but I don’t see the point to giving up a home game for a mid major opponent. Would love to see, say a Kentucky, Georgia tech or Tennessee, but would those schools do it? Do their schedules work as far as openings? What’s the payout?

I don’t think I’ve seen that many adamantly opposed to this, but the logistics are hard to work out. In the grand scheme of things, there really aren’t a ton of neutral site games, they are just very high profile games so they stand out.

 

[anon_8rcdnbko1jbe0]

Iowa played at Soldier Field in a season where they had 7 home games. I’m assuming with NIU being the opponent, the University took home a much larger chunk than if they split with another P5 conference.

That’s what we are asking. How can Wisconsin do it twice but Iowa can’t do it once? The AD says it’s because of 7 home games and financials. So our next question to Barta would/should be, why would it hurt Iowa but not Wisconsin?

Not trying to be a smart-ass here but it's not Bartas as job to worry about what Wisconsin does. I agree that it would be nice to get a neutral-site game especially at Arrowhead. But as others have pointed out it does take two to tango, I think it takes a strong brand striking while the iron is hot for both teams to want to line up to do it. As far as no one answering the question previously I think you've had some really good answers in this thread. On a side note I guess I'm just kind of chuckling it how excited people get about what Wisconsin does or has done. Should Iowa do that as well? Sure if the time's right and it works out but I'm perfectly satisfied with the 7 home games that they have right now. And the fact that the finances from football are able to help support the other sports and still keep the athletic department in the black.

 

[H4wkfan4life]

Basically you want to cut non-revenue sports to make it a possibility for Iowa to schedule only 6 home games.

You can’t look at just the attendance figures, you have to look at the $ amounts. You’re looking at $4-$6 million in revenue just for tickets depending on level of opponent. Add in $500k-$1.5 mil for concessions not counting parking or apparel sales. Add in the revenue and sales tax generated for all other local businesses and you can see why they won’t do it very often.

Local businesses ought to be able to stand on their own two feet!

Also, how do we know what will truly generate more money for the local economy? I keep hearing people saying things but I never see any real numbers. Where is a link to the numbers?
A night game vs a quality opp will mean many more people staying over night, at least I'd think. That mean even more rooms sold, even more dinners and breakfast the next day. More shopping the morning after etc.
The game will also mean more fans! I'd go to a iowa/Lsu game just to tailgate before i'd go to iowa/miami oh game....even if offered a free ticket. It's not worth the travel time to watch a game that isn't even going to be a game.

Also, ticket sales should be twice as much (or close to it) as a garbage game, so I don't see that meaning much either.

 

[H4wkfan4life]

So let me see if I'm understanding this correctly. You believe Iowa football would gain more by playing on the road vs a decent opponent rather than making millions of dollars to invest into the football program?

Are you talking a home and away or just going and playing an away game?
BIG difference.....

 

[H4wkfan4life]

Iowa played at Soldier Field in a season where they had 7 home games. I’m assuming with NIU being the opponent, the University took home a much larger chunk than if they split with another P5 conference.

That’s what we are asking. How can Wisconsin do it twice but Iowa can’t do it once? The AD says it’s because of 7 home games and financials. So our next question to Barta would/should be, why would it hurt Iowa but not Wisconsin?

We probably got 7 home games because it was before the 9 game b1g seasons started.
As for playing a neutral game.....I'm only for it if it's a big matchup. If we're gonna play niu we might as well play at home.

 

[iahawkeyes17]

Iowa played at Soldier Field in a season where they had 7 home games. I’m assuming with NIU being the opponent, the University took home a much larger chunk than if they split with another P5 conference.

That’s what we are asking. How can Wisconsin do it twice but Iowa can’t do it once? The AD says it’s because of 7 home games and financials. So our next question to Barta would/should be, why would it hurt Iowa but not Wisconsin?

Barta said back in 16’ after week 1 that he would be open to this. It has to be in a stadium not too far so it could be a de facto 7th game where Iowa fans could get to, against a quality team and be fiscally worth it and counter act and make up for losing revenue from a 7th game. Wisconsin did it vs LSU cause the payouts were great, they don’t have a rival instate ga on schedule like isu and that was their only power 5 team and one year was in Lambeau where it basically was a home game.

 

[SWIowahawks]

Barta said back in 16’ after week 1 that he would be open to this. It has to be in a stadium not too far so it could be a de facto 7th game where Iowa fans could get to, against a quality team and be fiscally worth it and counter act and make up for losing revenue from a 7th game. Wisconsin did it vs LSU cause the payouts were great, they don’t have a rival instate ga on schedule like isu and that was their only power 5 team and one year was in Lambeau where it basically was a home game.

Barta said it and Wisconsin went out and got it done. Even though in that particular season, Wisconsin has 7 home games.

 

[MepoDawg#]

No two athletic departments are the same, apples vs oranges at this point. Nobody said they couldn’t/wouldn’t do it once, but they won’t do it regularly.

 

[Hawktimism]

Are you talking a home and away or just going and playing an away game?
BIG difference.....

I understand the difference. I was referring to a home and home.

 

[MeetTheFerentz]

If Iowa ever gives up a 7th home game, it would have to be for a blockbuster matchup (ND @ Soldier Field, part of home-and-home with Texas A&M, etc) in which the influx of enthusiasm in the fan base might pay dividends that would make up for a one-year financial shortcoming.

 

[kceasthawk]

Northwestern, Illinois, Indiana, Maryland, and Rutgers all average about 40,000 fans per home football game. Iowa averages about 67,000. Over six games, the first five schools mentioned draw about 240,000. Iowa draws about 402,000—160,000 more over six games. So after doing that math, I am not sure why we keep hearing that Iowa HAS to have SEVEN home games every season. And I’m also not sure how NW, Illinois, Indiana, Maryland, and Rutgers survive when they draw about 280,000 for seven home games while Iowa draws about 469,000.


At the same time, how do any of those schools compete with Ohio State (107,000 per game / 752,000 season total for 7 games), Michigan (111,000 / 669,000 for 6), and Penn State (106,000 / 746,000 for 7).


The official attendance figures can be found here: http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/football_records/Attendance/2017.pdf


Ohio State, Michigan, and Penn State out-draw Iowa each season by about 300,000 over seven games.


Anyway, just thought I’d throw the numbers out there and see what others think about them.

What would be the loss of other revenues? Concessions, jobs for those who work the games. How about the cost to Iowa City and the surrounding areas in lost revenue for hotels, restaurants, grocery stores for tailgating supplies, and all those who depend on these events for their livelyhood?

 

[H4wkfan4life]

If Iowa ever gives up a 7th home game, it would have to be for a blockbuster matchup (ND @ Soldier Field, part of home-and-home with Texas A&M, etc) in which the influx of enthusiasm in the fan base might pay dividends that would make up for a one-year financial shortcoming.

Not to mention getting to play in tx and all those tx future recruits!

 

[H4wkfan4life]

What would be the loss of other revenues? Concessions, jobs for those who work the games. How about the cost to Iowa City and the surrounding areas in lost revenue for hotels, restaurants, grocery stores for tailgating supplies, and all those who depend on these events for their livelyhood?

Like I said before, 1 marquee matchup will bring a ton of folks just to tailgate.
Who says they won't spend more that 1 night vs 2 day games vs north texas? Do you have any links that provide real numbers?
How many people stay in hotels for an 11am kickoff vs miami oh? How many would stay if there was a 7pm game vs LSU/Tx/Etc? How many would then stick around for a little while the next day? So on and so on.
We never really have a big time non conf game here.....so I highly doubt there are any actual FACTS to show.

 

[kceasthawk]

Like I said before, 1 marquee matchup will bring a ton of folks just to tailgate.
Who says they won't spend more that 1 night vs 2 day games vs north texas? Do you have any links that provide real numbers?
How many people stay in hotels for an 11am kickoff vs miami oh? How many would stay if there was a 7pm game vs LSU/Tx/Etc? How many would then stick around for a little while the next day? So on and so on.
We never really have a big time non conf game here.....so I highly doubt there are any actual FACTS to show.

First off you asked for others to chime in, and thats all I did. I'm not standing opposed to your statement in anyway. I don't know if there's data on these things, just pointing them out. You may very well be right. I do know it takes two to tango, and I don't know that anyone is knocking down Iowa's door to play them in a home and home scenario, so that THEY can come get some of that Kinnick magic ass kicken. The day I hear that Barta is turning down a legitimate overture from a high level team that wants to come and play in Kinnick, I'll be the first one on hear calling for his ouster. Just sayin.......

 

[H4wkfan4life]

First off you asked for others to chime in, and thats all I did. I'm not standing opposed to your statement in anyway. I don't know if there's data on these things, just pointing them out. You may very well be right. I do know it takes two to tango, and I don't know that anyone is knocking down Iowa's door to play them in a home and home scenario, so that THEY can come get some of that Kinnick magic ass kicken. The day I hear that Barta is turning down a legitimate overture from a high level team that wants to come and play in Kinnick, I'll be the first one on hear calling for his ouster. Just sayin.......

For sure. I certainly can't say I know of a deal they passed on, but I'd have to think we could find a quality ooc matchup if barta really wanted to.

 

[anon_8rcdnbko1jbe0]

Like I said before, 1 marquee matchup will bring a ton of folks just to tailgate.
Who says they won't spend more that 1 night vs 2 day games vs north texas? Do you have any links that provide real numbers?
How many people stay in hotels for an 11am kickoff vs miami oh? How many would stay if there was a 7pm game vs LSU/Tx/Etc? How many would then stick around for a little while the next day? So on and so on.
We never really have a big time non conf game here.....so I highly doubt there are any actual FACTS to show.

So the first link is from 2015 specifically looking at the impact for Johnson County. The second link is from the study done at Nebraska and if you look at page 11 on that study it will be football specific. Now that won't answer what you're trying to do which is compare it to a high-profile matchup as a night game. Because what you're laying out in comparison does not seem like it's financially sound. You can't just double ticket prices supposedly or guess at how many people are actually show up for a game. I think these figures can give you some information.

hawkeyesports.com/news/2015/9/3/economic_impact_of_iowa_football_exceeds_110_million.aspx

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...WMAF6BAgBEAE&usg=AOvVaw18YGrtNkuDAGb1giGBJ3ch

 

[iowa12]

Did you see the article about the athletic department having made a $1M profit last year after two years of deficits? They spend $130M a year, football revenue is one of the biggest contriibutors

I have a solution. Quit spending 130 mill. It isn’t working for one and is absurd on the other

 

[iowa12]

What would be the loss of other revenues? Concessions, jobs for those who work the games. How about the cost to Iowa City and the surrounding areas in lost revenue for hotels, restaurants, grocery stores for tailgating supplies, and all those who depend on these events for their livelyhood?

Why stop there? Petition the ncaa and portent a hardship case in the iowa city economy requires us to play 12 home games annually

 

[iowa12]

Great responses in this thread. As a fan I'm a selfish as the next. I want Iowa to win the national championship and to win a Big Ten Championship and to increase their overall National exposure. But not at the detriment of the athletic department's Financial Health. Football is the largest revenue generator in the athletic department. Don't mess with it.

You do realize we have the most status quo coach and administration in the history of the program...right?

 

[anon_8rcdnbko1jbe0]

You do realize we have the most status quo coach and administration in the history of the program...right?

Oh hi 12! Yes please go into another in- depth analysis of a 7.5 per season win average - im all a quiver!