Carl wins International Coach of the Year Award
- Thread starter Mr Roarke
- Start date
Can both sides be right regarding Zain? Yes, Zain was an elite recruit coming in. Yes, Zain got even better with experience and coaching (compare his freshman year points to this year).
I'm actually very familiar with SW AA and I stand by my statement in general. Depth is not close to AAA, but they have some excellent wrestlers. Plus, they send 6 to Hershey. Its nothing like trying to get there out of SW AAA. The teams you quoted as traditional powerhouses would get manhandled by the top AAA teams in the state.
Here is a great place for you to continue your discussion:
https://bwi.forums.rivals.com/forums/the-wrestling-room.16/
GO HAWKS!
https://bwi.forums.rivals.com/forums/the-wrestling-room.16/
GO HAWKS!
I guess Steibler really did lose because of the flu and marginal refs
I'm talking about his TFs and falls this year compared to his freshman year. He is a much more offensive wrestler now. It would be interesting to see Steibler vs Rutherford now...
You're right but the title of the thread invites Penn State posters. How's this: If Gilman and Nato are in the 125 title match next year, I hope Gilman pins him and follows through with a face mush.
I take it you didn't notice that the discussion was in response to a HR regular and Iowa fan who asked about how they spit up AA and AAA in PA and the relative level of competition. I guess I should have realized that not all of you are interested in wrestling that takes place outside the state of IA and should have refrained from answering and rebutting a post that I thought was inaccurate. Should have waited for him to post the question on the BWI board.
You make some good points, all the while completely overlooking the number of kids eligible to participate in said sport. If I have 1 million kids eligible to participate and willing to do so, I'm gonna like my odds against Alaska's team of 28,000 kids eligible to participate, and willing to do so.....................................somehow, some way, I'm going to find some great wrestlers out of those Million I have to pick from, versus the poor slug of a Coach from Alaska with his meager band of 28K. The "bums" I don't pick can then go play Lacrosse.
The truth of the matter is, Iowa fares damn well in wrestling in spite of it's meager population.
Iowa has a lot of D3 schools (i.e. - non-scholarship), a few Juco's, 1 D2 school, 3 DI's and an NAIA school or 2. Compare that to PA's number of DI schools who award scholarships.
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Of course there are contributions from coaching and improvement once Zain was in college.
And it is still true that he was among the bluest of blue chip recruits.... #1 in his weight class, top 10 p4p, and a World Cadet FS champ. Beating defending champ and future 4xer Logan Steiber as a TRUE FR puts an exclamation point at just what a high level Zain was at before entering college. Mark Hall fits a similar profile. With that kind of starting material, molding a championship team becomes more easily reached.
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Overlooking the number of kids eligible is a point diceman seems to ignore.
If every single HS kid in Wyoming decided to "participate" in wrestling, the total number of "participants" for that state would exceed the number participants from PA. And the result of a Wyoming v PA comparison would not likely change. Participation #'s are only part of the story.
Every population has a bell curve distribution of intelligence and athleticism. There will be extremely strong/quick/coordinated kids at the end of the curve. Having a larger population simply increases the pure # of these kids.
A large population isn't enough, of course. You need the culture and support system to nurture the talent. Both Iowa and PA have that, but PA is working with a pool of potential talent >4x larger.
Good post. If you just look at sheer numbers, quantity will beget quality at the same rate all things being equal. That's the rub though. All things are not equal. PA and IA have great support systems (coaching, clubs, youth programs, parental, fans) that pulls more of those "intelligent and athletic" young people into our sport than another. That is why a CA can have 10 times the population of IA and 6 times the number of active hs wrestlers and still lag in the production of AA caliber wrestlers at the D1 level. The culture/support system in CA lags IA by every measure. Doesn't mean you can't find a Delgado or a Meija or a Nevills, but there should be a lot more of those guys than there are if it was just a numbers game. So to me the argument about gross population is valid from a statistical point of view, but of more importance is the final connection with support structure that makes all the difference it seems at the top of the food chain. As you so rightly point out.
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Another thing to factor into these participation numbers is just how hard the sport can be in states like Iowa and PA for a kid that just wrestles part time. You probably weed out more "participants" in the youth level in states that are highly competitive. The cream rises to the top at a young age. These states are like wrestling distilleries. The pool of participants are more talented.
Just like 3a in Iowa when you have 1500 kids in a school you still only have 25 wrestlers on the team. While there are 1a schools with 150 kids that have 25 wrestlers on the team. Kids that would participate at a 1a school are discouraged by the idea of getting their head pounded in for 4 years with no shot at the lineup by kids that train year round and are way more talented than them.
I have no data but have to imagine there are a lot more big schools in PA. And sadly it is much more competitive.
Just like 3a in Iowa when you have 1500 kids in a school you still only have 25 wrestlers on the team. While there are 1a schools with 150 kids that have 25 wrestlers on the team. Kids that would participate at a 1a school are discouraged by the idea of getting their head pounded in for 4 years with no shot at the lineup by kids that train year round and are way more talented than them.
I have no data but have to imagine there are a lot more big schools in PA. And sadly it is much more competitive.
In PA, there are 229 schools that have wrestling programs where the male enrollment is 336 boys or less. Those are AA schools. There are 260 schools with wrestling programs where the male enrollment is at 337 and above, and those are AAA schools. Economics in PA has played a role in squeezing out the small rural high schools in favor of larger high schools that serves what used to be four distinct communities for example.
What does Iowa look like?
Another interesting comment from the OSU board was that John Smith has tirelessly been supportive of local high school wrestling since the downturn in that state at the high school level about 10 years ago, and those efforts are now bearing fruit in the form of deeper talent in the high school wrestling ranks. Makes sense to put in the work at that level, as it certainly makes recruiting easier and cheaper if done in state.
Yes, to use a Jesus metaphor, Cael is turning wine into wine and the Penn State chucleheads think it's a miracle.
BTW - on the topic of the Great One. Did you know Jesus wears a bracelet that says "What Would Cael Do?"
BTW - on the topic of the Great One. Did you know Jesus wears a bracelet that says "What Would Cael Do?"
And lol right back at ya.
<September 2015: In an HR thread, an Iowa guy who you might know scoffs at the very idea that Zain Retherford (a) is likely to beat Brandon Sorenson, and (b) will be a contender for the Hodge.
Zain Retherford beats Sorenson twice and is very much a contender for the Hodge.
April 2016: The very same Iowa guy you might know now takes the position that Zain's accomplishments were inevitable because he was an elite recruit.>
<Practically every day in a thread somewhere on some message board, a fan posts some version of the adage "steel sharpens steel."
April 2016: That Iowa guy you might know takes the position that Mark Hall doesn't need sharpening of any kind because he's an elite recruit.>
Bring in the best talent. Provide great facilities and elite training opportunities. Help with conditioning, technique, strategy, weight management, & mental preparation so that the maximum number of elite wrestlers are wrestling at their best when it matters most.
That's coaching.
That's how Gable built his dynasty (despite the fact that some Iowa fans want to make believe he was coaching up the Bad News Bears).
And that's how Cael is building his.
Why would some Latino at the border be thinking about Cael Sanderson? And why is Jackie Gleason referenced in your post?
No scoffing...I went with my guy. Also, I agreed that while Zain was a contender for 149, he had done nothing to inspire Hodge talk. This is exactly what cost him the Hodge; his freshman year...that and a weak weight class. BTW, the Hodge talk was started by an Iowa guy. I picked Ringer to win...he did. Most people had IMar, Gwiz, or Ringer. Had Gwiz beat Snyder he probably would have got it. At the time though, nobody knew Snyder's RS was going to get pulled.
Nobody denied that Zain was an elite guy though. Raise your hand if you were shocked to see him dominate the field at 149? I wasn't. Why? Because he's been an elite kid since he was a wee lad.
Nobody denies that there is good coaching going on at PSU. But PSU is born on third base trying to convince the rest of us you hit triple.
I really don't understand why some of my PSU brethren are so sensitive about other fans picking non-PSU wrestlers ahead of ours. I'm annoyed by it, so I can only imagine what everyone on an Iowa board feels like. While I thought Zain was better than Brandon at the beginning of the year, it wasn't something THAT obvious, especially when Zain took a year off. Brandon is a great wrestler in his own right who happens to not match up well with Zain.
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Iowa is broken into 3 classes.
They take the top 64 schools in enrollment and put them into 3a (Total Enrollment 63595)
Next 96 in enrollment into 2a (Total Enrollment 30849)
and then the rest into 1a. 124 in 2016 (Total Enrollment 19100)
It makes for pretty even distribution talent-wise on an individual level, but the stronger teams are usually 3a or 2a with an occasional 1a outlier team.
Going from this https://www.iahsaa.org/secure/teamspublic.php?sport=wr
3a
Valley, West Des Moines 2196
Des Moines, East 1741
Des Moines, North 1676
Des Moines, Abraham Lincoln 1659
Waukee 1658
Linn-Mar, Marion 1541
Johnston 1525
Iowa City, West 1512
Southeast Polk 1510
Des Moines, Roosevelt 1420
Davenport, West 1395
Cedar Rapids, Kennedy 1367
Waterloo, West 1330
Cedar Rapids Jefferson 1262
Dubuque, Hempstead 1218
Iowa City, City High 1215
Bettendorf 1212
Muscatine 1201
Dubuque, Senior 1198
Cedar Falls 1172
Urbandale 1145
Dowling Catholic, West Des Moines 1142
Prairie, Cedar Rapids 1128
Marshalltown 1095
Cedar Rapids, Washington 1090
Ankeny Centennial 1085
Sioux City, East 1062
Sioux City, North 1058
Davenport, Central 1026
Pleasant Valley 989
Council Bluffs, Abraham Lincoln 969
Council Bluffs, Thomas Jefferson 949
Ankeny 946
Ames 930
Ottumwa 914
Sioux City, West 893
Clinton 882
Fort Dodge 867
Indianola 851
Burlington 847
Davenport, North 846
Mason City 826
Waterloo, East 816
Fort Madison 753
Lewis Central 750
Pella 695
North Scott, Eldridge 690
Epworth, Western Dubuque 654
Oskaloosa 644
Norwalk 633
Waverly-Shell Rock 632
Newton 616
Boone 559
Dallas Center-Grimes 558
Keokuk High School 552
Xavier, Cedar Rapids 541
Carroll 535
Denison-Schleswig 518
Storm Lake 513
Mount Pleasant 507
Marion 493
LeMars 474
Carlisle 461
Spencer 453
Total Enrollment
63595
2a
Perry 453
Glenwood 451
Nevada 436
Decorah 434
Webster City 431
Clear Creek-Amana 425
West Burlington 425
Maquoketa 423
Bishop Heelan Catholic, Sioux City 416
Atlantic 412
Creston 411
Washington 407
Harlan 405
Spirit Lake 403
Ballard 401
Denver 399
Knoxville 393
Central DeWitt 392
Winterset 391
Sheldon 389
Fairfield 388
Anamosa High School 387
Charles City 384
Forest City 384
Gladbrook-Reinbeck 384
Wahlert, Dubuque 384
Grinnell 382
Vinton-Shellsburg 380
Independence 379
Shenandoah 378
ADM, Adel 362
Greene County 361
West Delaware, Manchester 360
BCLUW, Conrad 358
Bondurant-Farrar 356
Sergeant Bluff-Luton 345
Algona 344
Benton Community 344
Van Meter 343
Chariton 341
Humboldt 337
Assumption, Davenport 336
Saydel 335
Woodward-Granger 333
Oelwein 328
MOC-Floyd Valley 326
Center Point-Urbana 325
Crestwood, Cresco 323
East Marshall, LeGrand 322
Iowa Falls-Alden 318
South Tama County, Tama 318
Gilbert 314
Solon 314
Columbus Community, Columbus Junction 310
Estherville Lincoln Central 310
Rock Valley 306
Mount Vernon 305
Hampton-Dumont 303
Williamsburg 302
Centerville 294
North Polk, Alleman 294
Clarke, Osceola 293
Union, La Porte City 290
West Liberty 286
Waukon 285
Clear Lake 283
Davis County, Bloomfield 278
Garner-Hayfield-Ventura 278
North Fayette Valley 265
Mid-Prairie, Wellman 264
Red Oak 264
Albia 260
Camanche 254
New Hampton 253
Pocahontas Area 249
Monticello 247
Southeast Valley, Gowrie 246
Sioux Center 245
Central Lyon, Rock Rapids 242
Northeast, Goose Lake 239
Kuemper Catholic, Carroll 238
Clarinda 236
Beckman Catholic, Dyersville 232
Osage 232
Roland-Story, Story City 231
Bedford 224
Cherokee, Washington 224
Clarion-Goldfield-Dows 223
PCM, Monroe 218
Aplington-Parkersburg 216
East Sac County 216
Mediapolis 216
Central Decatur, Leon 210
Collins-Maxwell 209
Cascade, Western Dubuque 206
Columbus Catholic, Waterloo 203
Total Enrollment
30849
1a
Western Christian, Hull 385
Missouri Valley 282
Sioux Central, Sioux Rapids 220
Central City 205
Central City 205
Louisa-Muscatine 201
West Marshall, State Center 201
Interstate 35, Truro 200
Tipton 200
Dike-New Hartford 199
Underwood 197
Van Buren CSD and Harmony CSD 196
West Central Valley, Stuart 196
Sidney 193
Sigourney 191
East Union, Afton 190
Moravia 190
North Cedar, Stanwood 189
Wilton 188
Tri-County, Thornburg 187
Woodbine 187
Okoboji, Milford 184
West Monona, Onawa 184
AHSTW, Avoca 183
Eagle Grove 182
Sibley-Ocheyedan 181
South Central Calhoun 181
Eddyville-Blakesburg-Fremont 180
Coon Rapids-Bayard 179
Southeast Warren, Liberty Center 179
Durant 178
Emmetsburg 178
Panorama, Panora 178
West Branch 178
Kingsley-Pierson 175
South Winneshiek, Calmar 175
OA-BCIG 174
Regina, Iowa City 174
Maquoketa Valley, Delhi 173
MMC/RU 173
West Lyon, Inwood 173
Pleasantville 172
Central Springs 171
Pekin 171
Ogden 170
Sumner-Fredericksburg 170
Treynor 169
Alta/Aurelia 168
Hinton 168
Southwest Valley 168
Lake Mills 167
MFL MarMac 166
Saint Ansgar 164
South Hamilton, Jewell 162
Wapello 162
Clayton Ridge, Guttenberg 161
Manson Northwest Webster 160
Ridge View 160
Jesup 158
St. Edmond, Fort Dodge 158
Belmond-Klemme 156
Maple Valley-Anthon-Oto 156
Tri-Center, Neola 155
Bellevue 152
North Union 152
Highland, Riverside 148
West Fork, Sheffield 148
Hudson 146
Logan-Magnolia 146
Wapsie Valley, Fairbank 146
North Linn, Troy Mills 145
St. Albert, Council Bluffs 145
Clarinda Academy 144
Postville 144
Starmont 143
Lawton-Bronson 142
Newman Catholic, Mason City 142
North Mahaska, New Sharon 142
North Butler 141
B-G-M, Brooklyn 140
Lisbon 140
Nashua-Plainfield 139
West Sioux, Hawarden 138
West Hancock, Britt 137
Alburnett 136
East Buchanan, Winthrop 134
Woodbury Central, Moville 134
Cardinal, Eldon 133
Edgewood-Colesburg 133
Martensdale-St. Marys 133
Mount Ayr 131
Riverside, Oakland 131
Rockford 131
Hartley-Melvin-Sanborn 130
Griswold 129
Nodaway Valley 129
Northwood-Kensett 129
AGWSR, Ackley 125
Westwood, Sloan 125
Audubon 124
Akron-Westfield 123
Colfax-Mingo 122
New London 120
Guthrie Center 118
Lynnville-Sully 116
Belle Plaine 113
Graettinger-Terril 112
East Mills 109
Iowa Valley, Marengo 109
Wayne, Corydon 109
Central Community, Elkader 106
English Valleys, North English 102
Lone Tree 100
Midland, Wyoming 99
Turkey Valley, Jackson Junction 99
Don Bosco, Gilbertville 98
Twin Cedars, Bussey 95
Exira/EHK 92
West Bend-Mallard 91
WACO, Wayland 89
West Harrison, Mondamin 84
Clarksville 72
H-L-V, Victor 70
Riceville 69
Total Enrollment
19100
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There are many of us believe it or not, but unfortunately the Iowa board attracts a different type who likes to be boastful without realizing they actually aren't doing the heavy lifting of getting the team to victory. Boasting from a fan is hollow at best. It's okay to be euphoric when you win, but no need to take it elsewhere and rub it in. For example, this thread should never be started on an opposing team's board. Not cool, and to me it's a sign that something must be missing from their lives that you have to live vicariously through another person/teams heroics.
Zain can do to Brandon what no other guy could...get into him on an angle and get him moving side to side.
But yes...this is the attitude of your fans. Bow down to Cael and our guys. This message board, an Iowa one, has been inundated with Braggarts. After we beat OSU, a few of us posted over there but it was largely complimentary because of the crowd. Even last year when we face mushed them in their house, nobody went over there to brag. Trust me...we have years of bad blood with OSU. When we have beaten you in duals, hardly nobody shat on BWI's doorstep from this board.
Yet we have no less than ten PSU fans on here regularly wanting us to take the Cael-pledge. All of it smacks not of a confident fan base but of an arrogant and Napoleanic one. Who you (I mean this in a general sense) guys trying to convince...us or yourselves?
Thank you. Is that total enrollment, or male only? I'm guessing total. If true, then you have 47 schools of the same size as PA's AAA schools, which number 260. Huge difference, and I agree with your earlier post where you suggest size of student body matters.
So a Michigan State interloper starts a derogatory threat on the Iowa board about PSU and you and the interloper hold hands and run down the Iowa posters. You guys are nuts. Flat out nuts.
People that brag about things that they had no part in accomplishing are probably missing something from their lives and doing this stuff makes them feel important and a winner. It does neither. I just hope these posters are in their 20s and not 50s. That would be especially bad.
Huh?????? Read it again. I think you missed something. I was referring to a few PSU fans.
Chief... You follow the BWI board enough to know the ten(?) PSU dolts who come over here to talk smack don't represent the fanbase as a whole. Most PSU fans know Iowa's history and respect it. All large groups of people have their fools. Just the way it is.
It certainly wasn't ignored - if you actually read my post I addressed it. What didn't you get about the "difference in the landscape of high school athletics" between PA and IA? Although PA's population may be close to 4x that of Iowa, high school participation in ALL sports is only about double that of Iowa's. Possibly that has something to do with the number of large urban centers in PA, as opposed to IA, where school athletic participation suffers?? In addition, as I pointed out above, PA has a few sports that IA either doesn't offer (Lacrosse, Volleyball), barely offer (Swimming), or don't have as large a following in (Soccer) that most likely siphon off potential athletes. If the participation rate of 2x were applied equally across sports that would be approximately 30,000 athletes that are competing in other sports besides wrestling in PA, that aren't doing the same thing in Iowa.
I'm certainly not ripping Iowa HS wrestling here. It's a fantastic state for HS wrestling and certainly top 10 in the country by any metric and probably just outside the top 5 IMO. It's just that citing the general population of a state in terms of a high school wrestling argument has a lot of flaws. The wrestling participation rate has it's flaws also, although it is much closer to being accurate and is certainly more relevant.
By "tirelessly been supportive of local high school wrestling" you mean moving kids into Stillwater for high school.
