Cassioppi’s match

[artradley]

I’m surprised this hasn’t been discussed more, but that was some terrible officiating. First, it was clear early on that Tony was well under the chin and exerting pressure on the side of the neck. Then, a full five seconds passed after the kid blacked out before the official slapped the mat for the pin. Even after the kid’s body pretty dramatically went limp the official still didn’t seem to react, at all. That was a high degree of obliviousness.

 

[Chips28]

I mentioned this on the PBP thread. That is part of the refs job. He should be fired or never allowed to work in the big ten again. Everyone on TV saw the kid pass out, no idea what he was doing or looking at. Didn’t even signal for a trainer .

 

[Old_wrestling_fan]

I watched it live on the big screen in Carver and was quite surprised to see the ref allow it. I was under the impression that you needed to have something else in the hold, (shoulder, elbow, etc,) and not just an arm underneath the chin of the opponent.

I am not accusing Tony of anything improper, but I thought it would be stopped any second. For sure, the Purdue wrestler turned all kinds of red and then went limp.

 

[js8793]

I watched it live on the big screen in Carver and was quite surprised to see the ref allow it. I was under the impression that you needed to have something else in the hold, (shoulder, elbow, etc,) and not just an arm underneath the chin of the opponent.

I am not accusing Tony of anything improper, but I thought it would be stopped any second. For sure, the Purdue wrestler turned all kinds of red and then went limp.

he didn’t have his hands locked. that’s where needing the arm comes in. there wasn’t much difference between that and men’s cross face on his turks

 

[Nashville_Hawkeye]

I’m surprised this hasn’t been discussed more, but that was some terrible officiating. First, it was clear early on that Tony was well under the chin and exerting pressure on the side of the neck. Then, a full five seconds passed after the kid blacked out before the official slapped the mat for the pin. Even after the kid’s body pretty dramatically went limp the official still didn’t seem to react, at all. That was a high degree of obliviousness.

I can't speak to what the ref was looking at or what he did or did not see, but it was obvious from the camera angle on the B10 network that the Purdue kid was out cold.

 

[artradley]

he didn’t have his hands locked. that’s where needing the arm comes in. there wasn’t much difference between that and men’s cross face on his turks

Locked around the head without an arm is an illegal hold. However, it’s not the only illegal or PD move that can cause a stoppage. Anything that puts pressure against the carotid artery should cause the official to stop the match for a potentially dangerous.

 

[bluroptimo]

I can count with both hands the number of times I’ve seen refs miss the opponent going to sleep. It happens, refs and coaches talk and I think fortunately for the amateur sport it doesn’t happen very often…but it happens.

 

[lookleft goright]

As a person who has officiated, it is often hard to see what is happening when you are too close to the action. A kid passing out is much easier to see from a distance as you can observe all the things that go along with passing out. The kid turning colors, going limp, body relaxing suddenly, exactly where the arm is across the throat, etc.
We had a kid pass out in a college match and a very good ref had no idea it was happening.

Hopefully, the other refs will see this and learn from it and it will get stopped next time. Personally, I would like to seat called an illegal hold and give up a point as opposed to having it stopped for potentially dangerous. Of course, I am married and I am used to not getting what I want.

And no - I am not sending pics.

 

[bluroptimo]

I’m reading all posts from the bottom up this morning so I just missed all of your post cause I won’t read if pics that are due aren’t provided.

 

[artradley]

I’m reading all posts from the bottom up this morning so I just missed all of your post cause I won’t read if pics that are due aren’t provided.

Nopics. But video should suffice.

 

[bluroptimo]

I think youth refs can end up being the best at spotting it, lots of exposed necks. I like the refs that call the quicker pins in those situations especially like those calls against the kids who use tap out as their way of getting off their back. Haha.

 

[bluroptimo]

Nopics. But video should suffice.

View embedded media

Wow, I missed it too. I see a radius on the mandible wouldn’t have thought twice about the carotid. Not meaning to disagree with you Art I can see what your seeing now so credit you for catching it. BTW that was my first time watching it thanks for posting. I looked away when it was happening and only saw the afterwards.

 

[LutherAce]

Locked around the head without an arm is an illegal hold. However, it’s not the only illegal or PD move that can cause a stoppage. Anything that puts pressure against the carotid artery should cause the official to stop the match for a potentially dangerous.

so this should've been called and stopped immediately? in your opinion?

 

[Nashville_Hawkeye]

I can count with both hands the number of times I’ve seen refs miss the opponent going to sleep. It happens, refs and coaches talk and I think fortunately for the amateur sport it doesn’t happen very often…but it happens.

Yep, just watched the recording again...was definitely an unintentional sleeper hold that resulted in a quick lights out a few seconds before the fall was called.

 

[artradley]

so this should've been called and stopped immediately? in your opinion?

That one I would have simply called unnecessary roughness.

From a choking perspective it wasn’t actually dangerous; he was lifting up on the chin and it doesn’t look like there was pressure on the throat or neck. But it was ridiculously violent with no wrestling purpose.

 

[Scruddy]

so this should've been called and stopped immediately? in your opinion?

I believe the ref actually told fix he had to release that hold or watch it. He was certainly more on top of the situation than the official in the Purdue dual and it was released pretty quick.

 

[rcamp67]

I believe the ref actually told fix he had to release that hold or watch it. He was certainly more on top of the situation than the official in the Purdue dual and it was released pretty quick.

It was also about 1,000 times more obvious and in the open than the Purdue match. What Cass was doing was much more difficult to see the wrestler being chocked out. Many refs have missed that and many many more will miss that. But hey. It’s 2022 and something not great happened. Fire him. SMH

 

[just_somebody]

Was this something that the second ref should have picked up? Seems like he might have had a better chance to spot it, looking more at the whole picture than focusing on the potential fall

 

[Scruddy]

It was also about 1,000 times more obvious and in the open than the Purdue match. What Cass was doing was much more difficult to see the wrestler being chocked out. Many refs have missed that and many many more will miss that. But hey. It’s 2022 and something not great happened. Fire him. SMH

Any good official should always be watching for that when across the throat like that. I don't think he should be fired. A note to watch for it in the future would suffice imo.

 

[pumpdog20]

Was this something that the second ref should have picked up? Seems like he might have had a better chance to spot it, looking more at the whole picture than the potential fall

I'd have to guess the second ref would be in a position behind the wrestlers and not able to see it.

 

[artradley]

Was this something that the second ref should have picked up? Seems like he might have had a better chance to spot it, looking more at the whole picture than the potential fall

No, the second ref positions opposite the lead official, so he was behind them. I mean, it would have been heads up for him to sneak around the corner and get a peek. Ref should have looked as soon as Cass wrapped his head, because it’s a very common position to result in a choke. And he should have see the eyes close and body go limp in something less than a five count.

 

[evashevsky58]

what is the move Tony was using called?

 

[dmlawdad]

If you listen to the clip the announcers had no clue there was an issue, didn't even talk about the hold being a problem.

 

[Grip220]

what is the move Tony was using called?

Boston strangler

 

[Grip220]

If you listen to the clip the announcers had no clue there was an issue, didn't even talk about the hold being a problem.

Typically this would not be “illegal”
It’s the same hold if you are running a bow & arrow which actually should be considered illegal.
Getting back to what Fix did to DeSanto, now that should be illegal! There is no attempt with double boots to score in that position unless you reach across to far arm or go to a power half.

 

[enveng]

I think a lot of people on here are being too hard on the ref. This position happens all the time in wrestling matches and I can’t remember another time someone way choked out with it (I am sure others on here may have seen it before but it is certainly uncommon).

chech out the sequence from Kemmerer’s match at 34:24 and com pair it with Case’ match at 48:00. The arm is in the exact same position. The only difference is that Ken has the Turk and Cass does not. Also that Cass’ opponent pushed back into the arm harder (probably could push back harder without being turked).

Watch the clock and how long between when Purdue goes out until Cass releases the neck and adjusts. It looked like 3 seconds at the most. As soon as the Purdue wrestler stops pushing back into Cass he adjust off the neck.

I think the ref could have done a little better, but in real time with counting back points, watching for the pin and watching the move I don’t think it was as bad as several here are making it out to be.

 

[evashevsky58]

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I think a lot of people on here are being too hard on the ref. This position happens all the time in wrestling matches and I can’t remember another time someone way choked out with it (I am sure others on here may have seen it before but it is certainly uncommon).

chech out the sequence from Kemmerer’s match at 34:24 and com pair it with Case’ match at 48:00. The arm is in the exact same position. The only difference is that Ken has the Turk and Cass does not. Also that Cass’ opponent pushed back into the arm harder (probably could push back harder without being turked).

Watch the clock and how long between when Purdue goes out until Cass releases the neck and adjusts. It looked like 3 seconds at the most. As soon as the Purdue wrestler stops pushing back into Cass he adjust off the neck.

I think the ref could have done a little better, but in real time with counting back points, watching for the pin and watching the move I don’t think it was as bad as several here are making it out to be.

So Purdue guy choked himself out....

 

[just_somebody]

I'd have to guess the second ref would be in a position behind the wrestlers and not able to see it.

No, the second ref positions opposite the lead official, so he was behind them. I mean, it would have been heads up for him to sneak around the corner and get a peek. Ref should have looked as soon as Cass wrapped his head, because it’s a very common position to result in a choke. And he should have see the eyes close and body go limp in something less than a five count.

Thanks, as I (frequently) mentioned, never wrestled, let alone reffed wrestling matches or ever really thought about positioning. I'd be happy to tell you all the things basketball officials do wrong though

 

[nwiowahawkeye]

Nopics. But video should suffice.

View embedded media

Not gonna lie... I'm more impressed that you can link a video at the exact timing of the spot you wanted us to watch.... that kind of skillset is WWWAAAYYYY over my head. I would be lucky to even get the right link posted

 

[enveng]

So Purdue guy choked himself out....

Yes, partially. If he rolled over her would not have been choked out. Purdue was pushing back into the arm with his neck to avoid going to his back just as hard as Cass was pushing with his arm.

besides that, did you see the position in the Kem match? This position is extremely common and I can’t remember it being call PD. It is understandable that the ref was not focused on the leagal hold and more focused on the angle of the shoulders and when to start counting. I still would not say the ref did everything right, but I don’t think he needs to be fired on the spot.

 

[On Iowa]

If you listen to the clip the announcers had no clue there was an issue, didn't even talk about the hold being a problem.

They both saw it right when it happened, but they hushed about it and quickly moved on. Notice there was no replay of the pin shown, either.

 

[Tcalumet]

I’m surprised this hasn’t been discussed more, but that was some terrible officiating. First, it was clear early on that Tony was well under the chin and exerting pressure on the side of the neck. Then, a full five seconds passed after the kid blacked out before the official slapped the mat for the pin. Even after the kid’s body pretty dramatically went limp the official still didn’t seem to react, at all. That was a high degree of obliviousness.

Didn’t see anything illegal and 5 seconds seems a little high for being “clear” that he was out of it. It was very gray for a bit but them very clear for like 2-3 seconds from the cameras position. Ref wasn’t in the same vantage point.

he definitely missed it though

 

[Hawknado]

Why would the ref stop this match? The guy could have rolled over and gotten pinned or even tapped out to save himself.

 

[Iron Doc]

I mentioned this on the PBP thread. That is part of the refs job. He should be fired or never allowed to work in the big ten again. Everyone on TV saw the kid pass out, no idea what he was doing or looking at. Didn’t even signal for a trainer .

No Doubt!

 

[MilleGinja]

Aren’t there two referees for college matches (at least for duals)? I could understand how main ref may not notice, because he may be focused on the shoulders/back of bottom or guy. But the second ref?

 

[edquinn06]

I’m surprised this hasn’t been discussed more, but that was some terrible officiating. First, it was clear early on that Tony was well under the chin and exerting pressure on the side of the neck. Then, a full five seconds passed after the kid blacked out before the official slapped the mat for the pin. Even after the kid’s body pretty dramatically went limp the official still didn’t seem to react, at all. That was a high degree of obliviousness.

So do you just wake up every morning and say “what can I bi*ch about today?”

 

[CurtisLoew40]

I’m surprised this hasn’t been discussed more, but that was some terrible officiating. First, it was clear early on that Tony was well under the chin and exerting pressure on the side of the neck. Then, a full five seconds passed after the kid blacked out before the official slapped the mat for the pin. Even after the kid’s body pretty dramatically went limp the official still didn’t seem to react, at all. That was a high degree of obliviousness.

Not something ya want to see but saying the ref should be fired over it? Come on now. He got blood choked out and came back pretty fast. It’s not like the boy was limp asleep and Tony’s holding him in a read naked choke lol. Which you see in mma all the time. If those refs who are actually looking and expecting a guy to be choked out misses it then it’s hard to expect much from a college wrestling ref imo.

 

[1032004]

View embedded media

I think a lot of people on here are being too hard on the ref. This position happens all the time in wrestling matches and I can’t remember another time someone way choked out with it (I am sure others on here may have seen it before but it is certainly uncommon).

chech out the sequence from Kemmerer’s match at 34:24 and com pair it with Case’ match at 48:00. The arm is in the exact same position. The only difference is that Ken has the Turk and Cass does not. Also that Cass’ opponent pushed back into the arm harder (probably could push back harder without being turked).

Watch the clock and how long between when Purdue goes out until Cass releases the neck and adjusts. It looked like 3 seconds at the most. As soon as the Purdue wrestler stops pushing back into Cass he adjust off the neck.

I think the ref could have done a little better, but in real time with counting back points, watching for the pin and watching the move I don’t think it was as bad as several here are making it out to be.

Agreed, I don't really see anything worthy of stopping a college match until the guy goes limp. And I only count about 3 seconds from when he goes limp and the pin is called (48:05-48:08 in the video). Probably could have noticed a little sooner but he didn't seem to have the best angle and was probably looking more for the fall. You can tell he notices something is wrong as soon as he calls the pin and looks up higher. Honestly doesn't look like even Cassioppi realized the dude was out cold until he was walking away.

 

[artradley]

Not something ya want to see but saying the ref should be fired over it? Come on now. He got blood choked out and came back pretty fast. It’s not like the boy was limp asleep and Tony’s holding him in a read naked choke lol. Which you see in mma all the time. If those refs who are actually looking and expecting a guy to be choked out misses it then it’s hard to expect much from a college wrestling ref imo.

I didn’t say the ref should be fired. Or punished in any way. I’m saying that’s the longest I’ve ever seen a kid black out with the ref not noticing, and it was a bad job of officiating.

Guy blacks out, I would expect there would be some chatter about it.

 

[Tcalumet]

Agreed, I don't really see anything worthy of stopping a college match until the guy goes limp. And I only count about 3 seconds from when he goes limp and the pin is called (48:05-48:08 in the video). Probably could have noticed a little sooner but he didn't seem to have the best angle and was probably looking more for the fall. You can tell he notices something is wrong as soon as he calls the pin and looks up higher. Honestly doesn't look like even Cassioppi realized the dude was out cold until he was walking away.

Right - the outrage on this is excessive. You’d think this was a soccer forum.